Misuto Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 @jpmrocks I'm a streamer and YouTuber who plays DS/T full time. I have played the series over 8000 hours and currently have the world record for solo all bosses speed run. So, it goes without saying that I am fairly adept at kiting enemies and killing bosses solo. Having played Walter for over 16 hours since his launch already and being excited for him as a great character for new players to learn some different skills on, I have yet to find even a single redeeming trait for him in the actual late game when character change portal is available. This sucks because I am currently working on a script for his new character video but I truly can not find anything actually noteworthy for veteran players. Since you seem to think Walter is OP and needs a stronger downside, I genuinely would love for you to explain to me what this character actually does that is better than any other character or item that exists in the game already. As someone writing a guide for him and who may actually have the most played time in Don't Starve of anyone in the world, I really am seeing nothing in this character that would convince a min/maxer to play him. Upsides that don't matter to veteran players: Extra storage is nice... but we have krampus sacks and bundle wraps. Woby not losing her inventory when you die is nice... but I never die. Not losing sanity is nice... but tam exists and is one of the easiest to maintain items in the game. Bone helm also exists and can be used to go sane quickly if you double hit kite nightmares faster than they spawn. Not losing sanity to auras is nice... but bee queen crown exists and actually regains your sanity from these auras which is even better. Having a ride-able pet is nice... but rider beefalo are 25% faster with glossamer saddle. Having a ride-able pet in the cave is nice... but even with the recent buff, Woby is only 2% faster than a player with a cane and road. Slingshot is nice... but all it's attack are way lower dps than dark sword or hambat. 10 use portable fur roll is nice... but it's never time efficient to sleep when you know how to use your time well. Ice rounds for slingshot are honestly his best perk and sadly most people will probably ignore them. This is literally the only great and semi unique thing he has. It's freeze value is twice as powerful as an ice staff (so 1 slingshot will freeze bishops and mac tusk for instance compared to needing 2 from an ice staff) and you can store 60 shots in a single slot compared to only 20 ice staff shots if you have a brand new ice staff. Downsides that do matter to veteran players: Sanity lost when losing hp and draining when not at full hp. This adds up. I rarely ever play at full hp. So when I get hit by a cave in rock because I'm on the map, I just accept that damage until the next time I eat. I frequently allow myself to take starvation damage to get more value out of high healing foods like jerky or honey. I frequently allow myself to just soak freezing or overheating damage as jelly beans counter most of that damage and allow me to continue working on whatever chore I was doing. With Walter I can't do these things as they will tank my sanity at inopportune times. Tam is pointless. Tam is considered the default "meta" hat for a reason; it's stupid powerful sanity recovery coupled with an insane 25 day durability meaning you never have to worry about breaking it on accident when you're focused on another chore alongside the fact that is has no real competition as a default good hat (much like cane in the players hand slot). Outside of times of rain and summer when on the surface, tam is hat you wear 99% of the time to profit on sanity recovery because there is no other useful option that competes. Walter loses this, which means you then have to spend more time and effort recovering sanity after using magic items (like decon staff or moon/star callers staff). What can Walter do with his head slot? Since I never get hit, I don't bother carrying armor, so having an always on thul crown is pointless. In winter he can use beefalo hat which is a great hat, an summer he can use eyebrella. You can technically use eyebrella for rain but it's less efficient early spring than a rain coat and even then, it doesn't rain every day. You could say just use a miner's hat or moggles; but night is a small percentage of the day and in the uber late game you're likely running around with bundled glowberry mousse anyways so you just don't need those items. Does he just not wear a hat then and waste his head slot for 0 value? 110 max hunger. This might sound like a joke to medium skill players with only a few hundred hours in the game, but 110 max hunger is tiny - smallest in the entire game levels of tiny. This represents less than 12 minutes between needing to eat again. By being so tiny he also can't utilize the extremely food efficient meaty stew recipe to refill his belly for cheap when he's at a base near a crock pot and instead has to eat more expensive / less efficient recipes. Recipes like honey ham or bacon and eggs have great shelf lives and stats, but they are far less efficient hunger value wise than meaty stew and they take much longer to cook in the crock pot. Those are the kinds of meals you want to carry with you on a journey, not eat if you are just at base. With 110 max hunger he loses 40 of that hunger value and makes it very rarely the correct meal choice for him. So this downside is not only inconvenient for extreme late game players like myself, but also robs him of otherwise free food value and thus forces you the player to spend more time gathering materials for and cooking meals / making jerky / collecting honey. Inventory management. This isn't a downside so much as just pointing out that there is no upside to Woby's storage. In the very late game, I hardly ever even use a krampus sack because I never need the inventory space. I roll with 5 unwrapped items at all times leaving me 10 inventory slots to fill for 40 stacks of items (thanks to gift wraps) + 12 more slots for 48 stacks of items in shadow Chester when on the surface and 9 more slots for 36 more stacks of items in hutch in the caves. This is always far more than I ever need. Having yet another 36 potential stacks of items inside Woby would rarely every matter, you'd literally have to go out of your way to invent a chore long enough to need to collect that much turf or resource in one trip. Not to mention, if I do need more, I can just grab a krampus sack for 56 more stacks of items. So to sum it up, on the surface, including my unwrapped items, gift wraps, and chester's bone, I have access to 149 stacks of items at any given time. Woby buffing this to 184 or 23% more inventory is insignificant. While a new player may need help figuring out what to carry and what to leave behind, or being comfortable enough with the game to not need weapons or armor even on long trips, a veteran will never be able to usefully use all that space. Clarification: I am not saying Walter is bad or needs to be buffed. On the contrary, I think he is an excellent character for new players who are combat-averse to pick up and play with their other friends and he has some super safe farms that he can do to help the team all from the comfort and safety of the base while also having great upsides to encourage new players to be brave and explore the caves some and get familiar with the resources available therein. I am, in fact, having a lot of fun trying to play the game in a new way and trying to think up some very safe new player farm ideas unique to Walter to really make him shine as a teammate who does not require a ton of skill or time investment in the series. I am just genuinely asking OP to explain to me, a veteran of the series, why a min/maxer would ever pick this character over the other available options or characters who have far greater upsides and even less downsides than Walter (I'm looking at you Wickerbottom and Wolfgang). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpmrocks Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 Woby really is the biggest thing that makes me feel Walter is unbalanced. If Woby wasnt in the picture, I'd say Walter would be pretty balanced, maybe have his overall combat speed reduced, so his melee is as fast as his sling shot, or slow his melee and speed up his slingshot, something to make ranged more capable. But Woby really is just too strong of a boost without some downside. Maybe Walter drains more hunger when he runs, and Woby is needed to carry him? Maybe the more items Walter carries, he gets slower? Something needs to be there to counter a max speed beefalo and chester on Day 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 idk, I haven't played a lot of Walter but none of these seem like a problem to me... Right now most re-worked characters are simply coming out without down sides. Any they have are kinda superficial and very low impact. I struggle to think of any downside that isn't overcome through standard game play skills... Often matched with significant advantages that far out weight the disadvantage as well. I kinda wonder if Klei is doing this on purpose. Maybe they want to normalize the difficulty floor for playing the game across character selection so that every character is a more-or-less equally viable choice. Its not a bad idea considering all characters are unlocked at the start. In DS you had to play Wilson a bit before you got anyone else so each character could add its own curveball to the mix, but in DST someone might start by picking Wes, Wormwood or Warly and think the game was very unforgiving while someone might pick Willow, Wendy, or Wickerbottom and think the game was very easy while never having a baseline experience as Wilson to even realize what their character choice meant to their game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpmrocks Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Misuto said: @jpmrocks I'm a streamer and YouTuber who plays DS/T full time. I have played the series over 8000 hours and currently have the world record for solo all bosses speed run. So, it goes without saying that I am fairly adept at kiting enemies and killing bosses solo. Having played Walter for over 16 hours since his launch already and being excited for him as a great character for new players to learn some different skills on, I have yet to find even a single redeeming trait for him in the actual late game when character change portal is available. This sucks because I am currently working on a script for his new character video but I truly can not find anything actually noteworthy for veteran players. Since you seem to think Walter is OP and needs a stronger downside, I genuinely would love for you to explain to me what this character actually does that is better than any other character or item that exists in the game already. As someone writing a guide for him and who may actually have the most played time in Don't Starve of anyone in the world, I really am seeing nothing in this character that would convince a min/maxer to play him. Upsides that don't matter to veteran players: Extra storage is nice... but we have krampus sacks and bundle wraps. Woby not losing her inventory when you die is nice... but I never die. Not losing sanity is nice... but tam exists and is one of the easiest to maintain items in the game. Bone helm also exists and can be used to go sane quickly if you double hit kite nightmares faster than they spawn. Not losing sanity to auras is nice... but bee queen crown exists and actually regains your sanity from these auras which is even better. Having a ride-able pet is nice... but rider beefalo are 25% faster with glossamer saddle. Having a ride-able pet in the cave is nice... but even with the recent buff, Woby is only 2% faster than a player with a cane and road. Slingshot is nice... but all it's attack are way lower dps than dark sword or hambat. 10 use portable fur roll is nice... but it's never time efficient to sleep when you know how to use your time well. Ice rounds for slingshot are honestly his best perk and sadly most people will probably ignore them. This is literally the only great and semi unique thing he has. It's freeze value is twice as powerful as an ice staff (so 1 slingshot will freeze bishops and mac tusk for instance compared to needing 2 from an ice staff) and you can store 60 shots in a single slot compared to only 20 ice staff shots if you have a brand new ice staff. Downsides that do matter to veteran players: Sanity lost when losing hp and draining when not at full hp. This adds up. I rarely ever play at full hp. So when I get hit by a cave in rock because I'm on the map, I just accept that damage until the next time I eat. I frequently allow myself to take starvation damage to get more value out of high healing foods like jerky or honey. I frequently allow myself to just soak freezing or overheating damage as jelly beans counter most of that damage and allow me to continue working on whatever chore I was doing. With Walter I can't do these things as they will tank my sanity at inopportune times. Tam is pointless. Tam is considered the default "meta" hat for a reason; it's stupid powerful sanity recovery coupled with an insane 25 day durability meaning you never have to worry about breaking it on accident when you're focused on another chore alongside the fact that is has no real competition as a default good hat (much like cane in the players hand slot). Outside of times of rain and summer when on the surface, tam is hat you wear 99% of the time to profit on sanity recovery because there is no other useful option that competes. Walter loses this, which means you then have to spend more time and effort recovering sanity after using magic items (like decon staff or moon/star callers staff). What can Walter do with his head slot? Since I never get hit, I don't bother carrying armor, so having an always on thul crown is pointless. In winter he can use beefalo hat which is a great hat, an summer he can use eyebrella. You can technically use eyebrella for rain but it's less efficient early spring than a rain coat and even then, it doesn't rain every day. You could say just use a miner's hat or moggles; but night is a small percentage of the day and in the uber late game you're likely running around with bundled glowberry mousse anyways so you just don't need those items. Does he just not wear a hat then and waste his head slot for 0 value? 110 max hunger. This might sound like a joke to medium skill players with only a few hundred hours in the game, but 110 max hunger is tiny - smallest in the entire game levels of tiny. This represents less than 12 minutes between needing to eat again. By being so tiny he also can't utilize the extremely food efficient meaty stew recipe to refill his belly for cheap when he's at a base near a crock pot and instead has to eat more expensive / less efficient recipes. Recipes like honey ham or bacon and eggs have great shelf lives and stats, but they are far less efficient hunger value wise than meaty stew and they take much longer to cook in the crock pot. Those are the kinds of meals you want to carry with you on a journey, not eat if you are just at base. With 110 max hunger he loses 40 of that hunger value and makes it very rarely the correct meal choice for him. So this downside is not only inconvenient for extreme late game players like myself, but also robs him of otherwise free food value and thus forces you the player to spend more time gathering materials for and cooking meals / making jerky / collecting honey. Inventory management. This isn't a downside so much as just pointing out that there is no upside to Woby's storage. In the very late game, I hardly ever even use a krampus sack because I never need the inventory space. I roll with 5 unwrapped items at all times leaving me 10 inventory slots to fill for 40 stacks of items (thanks to gift wraps) + 12 more slots for 48 stacks of items in shadow Chester when on the surface and 9 more slots for 36 more stacks of items in hutch in the caves. This is always far more than I ever need. Having yet another 36 potential stacks of items inside Woby would rarely every matter, you'd literally have to go out of your way to invent a chore long enough to need to collect that much turf or resource in one trip. Not to mention, if I do need more, I can just grab a krampus sack for 56 more stacks of items. So to sum it up, on the surface, including my unwrapped items, gift wraps, and chester's bone, I have access to 149 stacks of items at any given time. Woby buffing this to 184 or 23% more inventory is insignificant. While a new player may need help figuring out what to carry and what to leave behind, or being comfortable enough with the game to not need weapons or armor even on long trips, a veteran will never be able to usefully use all that space. Clarification: I am not saying Walter is bad or needs to be buffed. On the contrary, I think he is an excellent character for new players who are combat-averse to pick up and play with their other friends and he has some super safe farms that he can do to help the team all from the comfort and safety of the base while also having great upsides to encourage new players to be brave and explore the caves some and get familiar with the resources available therein. I am, in fact, having a lot of fun trying to play the game in a new way and trying to think up some very safe new player farm ideas unique to Walter to really make him shine as a teammate who does not require a ton of skill or time investment in the series. I am just genuinely asking OP to explain to me, a veteran of the series, why a min/maxer would ever pick this character over the other available options or characters who have far greater upsides and even less downsides than Walter (I'm looking at you Wickerbottom and Wolfgang). Woby is more than extra storage, she's an extra 9 slots you get with Walter. Shes not Chester where you can just ditch him or whatever, it's a natural bonus 9 slots. Doesnt even matter it's a separate mob, Walter has a natural 24 slots of inventory, and thats before getting even a backpack. In fact, with Woby, you dont even need a backpack, thats just another bonus 8 slots. Plus with Walter, people have been reporting getting Krampus sacks within the first 5 days because its so easy for him to build up naughtiness with killing birds. It doesnt matter if you die, its extra storage with no downsides whatsoever. Even with chester, the closest thing to Woby's storage, you still need to go out and find him, and chester can still die and lose the items. Woby is a Day 0 invincible chester. Walter when sleeping next to 5 trees gives him a +6 Sanity per minute, with his tent made from grass being +1 sanity per second. The Tam gives a +6.7 per minute with sanity, meaning that Walter doesnt need the Tam to begin with because he can nearly match it on Day 0. Plus, his story telling gives a +10 sanity per minute, more than the Tam. Sure, gaining sanity through the BQ is great, but by Day 0, Walter can just Waltz into the caves with no rhyme or reason and not worry about sanity. Within like 3 days, you can set up a full base in caves, the same time it would take to even prep for BQ. Yes, and how often are you genuinely going to be actually stay on roads. Theres no roads in caves either, no roads on Lunar. Any time not on a path, Woby with 3 monster meat is better. The thing is tho, slingshot is a bonus on top of Walter having no melee downsides. If you were to compare a Wilson to a Walter in terms of combat, Walter is the better choice by a mile because not only do they share the same melee stats, Walter can just fish up ranged damage if needed. Slingshot isnt really a problem tho, I find it p balanced. It's actually more cost effective to build an ice staff over his ice rounds. Nearly same cost, and you dont waste charges with an ice staff if you miss. Tho again, his slingshot honestly is pretty balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatmanagement Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 45 minutes ago, Misuto said: @jpmrocks I'm a streamer and YouTuber who plays DS/T full time. I have played the series over 8000 hours and currently have the world record for solo all bosses speed run. So, it goes without saying that I am fairly adept at kiting enemies and killing bosses solo. Having played Walter for over 16 hours since his launch already and being excited for him as a great character for new players to learn some different skills on, I have yet to find even a single redeeming trait for him in the actual late game when character change portal is available. This sucks because I am currently working on a script for his new character video but I truly can not find anything actually noteworthy for veteran players. Since you seem to think Walter is OP and needs a stronger downside, I genuinely would love for you to explain to me what this character actually does that is better than any other character or item that exists in the game already. As someone writing a guide for him and who may actually have the most played time in Don't Starve of anyone in the world, I really am seeing nothing in this character that would convince a min/maxer to play him. Upsides that don't matter to veteran players: Extra storage is nice... but we have krampus sacks and bundle wraps. Woby not losing her inventory when you die is nice... but I never die. Not losing sanity is nice... but tam exists and is one of the easiest to maintain items in the game. Bone helm also exists and can be used to go sane quickly if you double hit kite nightmares faster than they spawn. Not losing sanity to auras is nice... but bee queen crown exists and actually regains your sanity from these auras which is even better. Having a ride-able pet is nice... but rider beefalo are 25% faster with glossamer saddle. Having a ride-able pet in the cave is nice... but even with the recent buff, Woby is only 2% faster than a player with a cane and road. Slingshot is nice... but all it's attack are way lower dps than dark sword or hambat. 10 use portable fur roll is nice... but it's never time efficient to sleep when you know how to use your time well. Ice rounds for slingshot are honestly his best perk and sadly most people will probably ignore them. This is literally the only great and semi unique thing he has. It's freeze value is twice as powerful as an ice staff (so 1 slingshot will freeze bishops and mac tusk for instance compared to needing 2 from an ice staff) and you can store 60 shots in a single slot compared to only 20 ice staff shots if you have a brand new ice staff. Downsides that do matter to veteran players: Sanity lost when losing hp and draining when not at full hp. This adds up. I rarely ever play at full hp. So when I get hit by a cave in rock because I'm on the map, I just accept that damage until the next time I eat. I frequently allow myself to take starvation damage to get more value out of high healing foods like jerky or honey. I frequently allow myself to just soak freezing or overheating damage as jelly beans counter most of that damage and allow me to continue working on whatever chore I was doing. With Walter I can't do these things as they will tank my sanity at inopportune times. Tam is pointless. Tam is considered the default "meta" hat for a reason; it's stupid powerful sanity recovery coupled with an insane 25 day durability meaning you never have to worry about breaking it on accident when you're focused on another chore alongside the fact that is has no real competition as a default good hat (much like cane in the players hand slot). Outside of times of rain and summer when on the surface, tam is hat you wear 99% of the time to profit on sanity recovery because there is no other useful option that competes. Walter loses this, which means you then have to spend more time and effort recovering sanity after using magic items (like decon staff or moon/star callers staff). What can Walter do with his head slot? Since I never get hit, I don't bother carrying armor, so having an always on thul crown is pointless. In winter he can use beefalo hat which is a great hat, an summer he can use eyebrella. You can technically use eyebrella for rain but it's less efficient early spring than a rain coat and even then, it doesn't rain every day. You could say just use a miner's hat or moggles; but night is a small percentage of the day and in the uber late game you're likely running around with bundled glowberry mousse anyways so you just don't need those items. Does he just not wear a hat then and waste his head slot for 0 value? 110 max hunger. This might sound like a joke to medium skill players with only a few hundred hours in the game, but 110 max hunger is tiny - smallest in the entire game levels of tiny. This represents less than 12 minutes between needing to eat again. By being so tiny he also can't utilize the extremely food efficient meaty stew recipe to refill his belly for cheap when he's at a base near a crock pot and instead has to eat more expensive / less efficient recipes. Recipes like honey ham or bacon and eggs have great shelf lives and stats, but they are far less efficient hunger value wise than meaty stew and they take much longer to cook in the crock pot. Those are the kinds of meals you want to carry with you on a journey, not eat if you are just at base. With 110 max hunger he loses 40 of that hunger value and makes it very rarely the correct meal choice for him. So this downside is not only inconvenient for extreme late game players like myself, but also robs him of otherwise free food value and thus forces you the player to spend more time gathering materials for and cooking meals / making jerky / collecting honey. Inventory management. This isn't a downside so much as just pointing out that there is no upside to Woby's storage. In the very late game, I hardly ever even use a krampus sack because I never need the inventory space. I roll with 5 unwrapped items at all times leaving me 10 inventory slots to fill for 40 stacks of items (thanks to gift wraps) + 12 more slots for 48 stacks of items in shadow Chester when on the surface and 9 more slots for 36 more stacks of items in hutch in the caves. This is always far more than I ever need. Having yet another 36 potential stacks of items inside Woby would rarely every matter, you'd literally have to go out of your way to invent a chore long enough to need to collect that much turf or resource in one trip. Not to mention, if I do need more, I can just grab a krampus sack for 56 more stacks of items. So to sum it up, on the surface, including my unwrapped items, gift wraps, and chester's bone, I have access to 149 stacks of items at any given time. Woby buffing this to 184 or 23% more inventory is insignificant. While a new player may need help figuring out what to carry and what to leave behind, or being comfortable enough with the game to not need weapons or armor even on long trips, a veteran will never be able to usefully use all that space. Clarification: I am not saying Walter is bad or needs to be buffed. On the contrary, I think he is an excellent character for new players who are combat-averse to pick up and play with their other friends and he has some super safe farms that he can do to help the team all from the comfort and safety of the base while also having great upsides to encourage new players to be brave and explore the caves some and get familiar with the resources available therein. I am, in fact, having a lot of fun trying to play the game in a new way and trying to think up some very safe new player farm ideas unique to Walter to really make him shine as a teammate who does not require a ton of skill or time investment in the series. I am just genuinely asking OP to explain to me, a veteran of the series, why a min/maxer would ever pick this character over the other available options or characters who have far greater upsides and even less downsides than Walter (I'm looking at you Wickerbottom and Wolfgang). I'm a veteran player who has played DS/T for thousands of hours and that's where a lot of my opinions about Walter come from; you are not the only one who is very experienced at this game. For starters: The Krampus sack is not a guarantee to even have in the typical game you will play, and takes a tremendous amount of work to actually get unless you got it early out of luck. Bundling wrap also takes quite a bit of time to make + use, and if you're using it on the go to "compress" your inventory it requires the raw items to make it, you having already gotten its blueprint, and the time to actually bundle things. Woby circumvents all this by being available day 1 FOR FREE without any upkeep, time or crafting cost required. For me I think most players see the obvious value in constantly having 9 extra inventory slots, whether it's late game or early game. Late game it's not as valuable as you point out but it still has inherent value. Extra inventory slots will never be not valuable. Veteran players (at least myself) still recognize that death is a possibility, no matter how good you are at the game. That's why taking measures to avoid and making death less harmful like storing food/minerals that mobs can take in your backpack, carrying a life giving amulet and Woby not dropping items are all things that are very practical to prepare for. It's only a free benefit, so why not? I don't play DST with a need to prove that I never die or take hits but I would want to be safe either way The time, effort and amount of resources it takes to procure a rider beefalo is massive, let alone one with a glossamer saddle; I don't think any player would claim it's easy to tame a beefalo because of the amount of time in game and patience it takes to actually have it done. It takes 300 hunger of grass, twigs or other veggie/fruits every day to domesticate that beefalo eventually and you have to craft items to care for it (salt licks, saddles, feeding it still anyway) When an alternative exists (that I think is important to point out is immortal, as a domesticated beefalo can die quite readily) that only requires 3 monster meat to ride and provides a stellar speed boost, that's an amazing amount of benefit to obtain at such a low cost. The amount of value you get from a rideable big Woby for the cost you need to get her to that state is absurdly good Are you suggesting that your entire caves maps are all covered in cobblestone turf? That (like the point above) is an absolutely massive amount of work that can just be circumvented by having a big Woby, which by working in caves and surface is massively easier. I definitely enjoy the amazing speed benefits that I have available to me day 1 of any DST world... The slingshot is nice to use against mobs that are slow, immobile (like tentacles) or things like birds or bunnies that have low HP but normally evade melee attacks. The slingshot is by no means supposed to replace melee weapons because if you want DPS of course use a melee weapon. If a slingshot were to out-damage melee weapons why even bother with melee anymore? For me I think Walter should deal 75% melee damage to give his slingshot more value A portable fur roll is always of course an optional and easy way to raise your stats; sure you can do other things with your time but if you need the HP and sanity in a pinch it's there and it's very convenient to use The sanity loss from being damaged is honestly pretty inconsequential when you consider that he has very effective and easy ways to raise his sanity: the tent, storytelling and being near trees all do this nicely. You keep saying that you get hit but plenty of players do, either because of lag, too many mobs around or just by accident; it's natural that people will get hit eventually, it's not realistic to claim you never get hit. Bundling wrap letting you compress your inventory is nice, but I don't think most people find it preferable to do that; if you can, it's always easier to just store things as they are. I think anyone could reasonably see the value in just having more inventory slots because it's only a free benefit, there's absolutely no downside to having more inventory space. For me the ice rounds are pretty inconsequential because the ice staff has much larger attack range and has the same effective durability for the cost of 1 blue gem: 10 ice ammo rounds having 2x the freezing potential of ice staff is the same as having 20 uses of an ice staff, just freeze twice; it's honestly not hard at all to use an ice staff twice. You keep claiming that you are a veteran of the series and claim to speak for veterans when many veteran players find disagreement about Walter; I don't see how your streaming, your alleged world records or your alleged "most hours in the world" makes your opinion more legitimate than anyone else, if that's what you're trying to imply. These are my thoughts in contrast to yours; the points I did not disagree with I think are pretty reasonable/good points ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misuto Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, jpmrocks said: Woby is more than extra storage As stated in my first post, this literally never matters. I also stated I never use a backpack and still have 93 full stacks of items worth of storage on my person at all times. Explain to me like I'm 5 what you are possibly carrying with all this extra space. That is almost 5 full pitchforks of turf that I can carry in my daily empty space inventory. Woby adds another 36 stacks on top of that. Are you legitimately going on trips for long enough to break 6 full pitchforks and bring back that much turf or some equivalent chore? 11 minutes ago, jpmrocks said: Walter when sleeping Why would a veteran player ever sleep? Sleep is always a non-optimal use of time. You are complaining that a character is broken which would mean they are broken at high skill levels, not having a perk that is nice for new players but utterly useless to veterans. 12 minutes ago, jpmrocks said: Sure, gaining sanity through the BQ is great, but by Day 0, Walter can just Waltz into the caves with no rhyme or reason and not worry about sanity. So can literally everyone else. Nightmare fuel is needed in bulk early game before you have the bone helm, so if anything this is actually a downside of his. If you are min/maxing the fun out of the game you want to be insane ASAP to farm fuel. 13 minutes ago, jpmrocks said: Yes, and how often are you genuinely going to be actually stay on roads. Literally 100% of the time. One of the first projects I undertake in any world around the midgame is to build an extensive highway system on both the surface and the caves to get to all places of interest. 15 minutes ago, jpmrocks said: Day 0 You seem to be concerned with the insignificant boost he gets on day 1 which makes me think you likely aren't fully min/max utilizing the early game like you claim to be when you are saying you perfect kite everything. Let's compare try-hard day 1 strategies and you tell me how Walter keeps up with any of the other cast. Day 1-7: I explore the surface until I find a totally normal tree, bee queen, and dragonfly. I open any cave entrance I find along the way to just get it on the map. I then kill dragonfly and take the ruins gems with me to the caves. Day 8-12: I use my knowledge of cave gen to immediately go the blue mushtree biome, collect blue caps, then go straight to the ruins to kill AG and get a magi, star callers, 30 thul walls, and thul club (if I didn't get a lazy explorer from AG). Day 13-18: I prep for and kill bee queen and begin moving suspicious marbles to be ready for the shadow chess pieces on day 21. Day 19-20: I get my beef hat for winter and wait until 21 to fight shadow chess pieces. Depending on the luck of the world gen I use any extra time to prep a few more things or start setting up for toadstool. This is my general try-hard strategy and time line with all characters except Warly and Wormwood. Wolfgang does it the easiest and has extra time to spare (hence why we used him for the speed run) but any character can roughly follow this same plan. For me, I see that Walter immediately falls flat on step 3. He struggles immensely with an early bee queen. He takes nearly twice as much damage through beekeeper's hats as other survivors do (22 damage vs 12) and has a lower max hp meaning he has to heal extremely frequently if you do the fight perfectly, and any hit from a grumble is extremely bad. They go from doing 3 damage to 13 damage through armor. This is more than 4x as much damage and practically an entire blue cap to just heal a single grumbles attack. You're saying Woby is brokenly strong early game, and I'm just not seeing it. I would love for you to explain to me like I'm 5 why he or she is so strong and thus merits more debilitating downsides when I would list Walter as one of the bottom 3 worst characters in terms of min/max early game power level as well as having no upsides in the super late game. 18 minutes ago, thegreatmanagement said: You keep claiming that you are a veteran of the series and claim to speak for veterans when many veteran players find disagreement about Walter; I don't see how your streaming, your alleged world records or your alleged "most hours in the world" makes your opinion more legitimate than anyone else, if that's what you're trying to imply. These are my thoughts in contrast to yours; the points I did not disagree with I think are pretty reasonable/good points ~ I merely listed those because someone is claiming a character is broken because of their skill. My argument was simply meant to highlight that there is always a bigger fish and that we should try to expand our scopes when looking at character balance to more than just our own set methods and ways of playing the game. I'm sorry if that didn't come across well. I took issue with op saying "Walter is broken because I am personally skilled enough to kite." So my counter argument was "as someone with even more experience which you seem to value, here is why I disagree and think it's fine to have a character who is balanced with new players in mind." As I stated in the bottom clarification: I like Walter and I'm having fun with him and he is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatmanagement Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Misuto said: I merely listed those because someone is claiming a character is broken because of their skill. My argument was simply meant to highlight that there is always a bigger fish and that we should try to expand our scopes when looking at character balance to more than just our own set methods and ways of playing the game. I'm sorry if that didn't come across well. I took issue with op saying "Walter is broken because I am personally skilled enough to kite." So my counter argument was "as someone with even more experience which you seem to value, here is why I disagree and think it's fine to have a character who is balanced with new players in mind." As I stated in the bottom clarification: I like Walter and I'm having fun with him and he is fine. I also agree with the point about kiting; I personally disagree with OP in that aspect because I think the barrier of skill to kite makes his perk of not losing sanity in most situations fair. In good honesty, if you as a player do not know how to kite/avoid damage well, Walter is going to be an abysmal pick for you; even then, there are certain mobs in game that cannot be kited either way so that is a solid disadvantage. I believe personally that character benefits should not be free from any possible disadvantage and should be more useful/become more viable when the player is more skilled, so I am completely fine with Walter's aspects relating to no sanity loss (except wormholes, that's kinda too much for me) My belief that character benefits should not just be flat out free and have no downsides/costs is why I dislike Woby being so reliable (being free from the start of game, not needing any upfront cost, time or resource to be able to use him as storage). His rideability for such a small cost of 3 monster meat I also think is pretty problematic too; that should be harder to accomplish. I find Woby personally unbalanced, but that's only my humble opinion ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigfrids hat Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said: Bundling wrap also takes quite a bit of time to make + use can i just butt in and say that bundling wraps are a key part of my playstyle and i always have at least one in my invo by the tenth day. i can get everything but the reeds first-day in all of my games and often i have four reeds by the second or third so i don't really understand how you think wraps take much time for a set-up. it just requires looking for hives and giving them a good wack when there are ANY mobs with a capacity for retaliation within their range. you send a riled swarm after them until they drop blueprints then while they are harrying the poor sucker you smack it a few times until you get the comb. it is easy-peasy if you are comfortable with eating the first hive you find(personally i break any hive i find in an area i am not going back to. if you are mindful with your time just two hives are all you need to sustain your needs at a low-to-mid tier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 18 minutes ago, gaymime said: can just butt in and say that bundling wraps are a key part of my playstyle and i always have at least one in my invo by the tenth day. i can get everything but the reeds first-day in all of my games and often i have four reeds by the second or third so i don't really understand how you think wraps take much time for a set-up. it just requires looking for hives and giving them a good wack when there are ANY mobs with a capacity for retaliation within their range. you send a riled swarm after them until they drop blueprints then while they are harrying the poor sucker you smack it a few times until you get the comb. it is easy-peasy if you are comfortable with eating the first hive you find(personally i break any hive i find in an area i am not going back to. if you are mindful with your time just two hives are all you need to sustain your needs at a low-to-mid tier) The blueprint for bundling wraps can only be acquired by killing the bee queen in DST; you might be referring to bundling wraps in single-player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigfrids hat Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 ah, i hadn't realized wraps were acquired differently in together. nix what i said then, oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDuelist Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I am pretty good at kiting, and yet I keep getting freezing/hunger/silly mistakes damage, which drives Walter instantly insane, and adds terrorbeaks to my IRL cursing. Walter is probably great if you are a new player avoiding all forms of combat all the time, or a DST demigod that never gets hit (and a player that already has reached that point, will probably not pick Walter in first place, due to his lack of endgame perks). For us, the advanced folk in the grey area inbetween those two stages, Walter seems to have fun moments and absolutely awful moments.... so his cons are there and can certainly be felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I notice some people bringing up other characters' weaknesses like Wolfgang's hunger and Wormwood's health to debunk the OP's argument, and while I disagree with his point, I feel like these weaknesses people are bringing up miss the mark on what he's trying to say. As evident in the original post and comments where he talks about Wilson, Wortox, Warly, etc. on page 2, I'm pretty sure what he's trying to say is that Walter lacks eternally lasting weaknesses that you constantly have to "work around" as opposed to situational weaknesses that have zero effect if you play like a frame-perfect robot. Things like Wolfgang's hunger drain, for example, last for eternity no matter what you do; it's a very-easily surmountable weakness, but it's a weakness that negatively affects you until the end of time or until death (whichever comes first). Quote Except you still have to work around Wormwood not being able to heal with food, or Wortox needing souls, or WX not being wet, etc. Where with Walter, you dont. For the record, I do think that Walter's sanity-damage is a downside even by these standards because there are situations in the game where, assuming you can dodge hits 100% of the time, taking damage is either mandatory or optimal (e.g. endgame hound waves, quickly killing deerclops with the campfire method, shadow clockworks, bee queen with the wall method, dragonfly without an ice staff, etc.). I just thought I'd bring this up for clarification because I don't think the OP is making the argument that Walter is an overpowered min-max character at all; he's saying Walter is unbalanced due specifically to lack of downsides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Look the bottom line is I did NOT expect Woodie to get a Moose and Goose Form, I did NOT Expect Willow to get a Teddy bear that enlarged and wrecks shadow creatures, I did NOT expect Wendy to become a Ectoherbology Potiongiest The TL:DR- You can not realistically compare Walter to ANYONE who has yet to be Refreshed, because we simply have no freaking clue how little or how much they are subject to change. For Me Walter seems to be a fairly decent design, the ONE thing that I take issue with is his ridiculous fast rate of time to go into full on Starvation Status... if he’s Aimed to be targeted more towards Casual players then the hunger thing is going to shy them away from picking him. in his current form he feels like he needs to take more snack breaks then WINONA.. and I hate it, I can not get up to go take a piss and make myself a soda with ice & snack because by the time I get back to my game screen (roughly 8-12 minutes Give or take depending on the circumstances) He’s already starving to death AGAIN (or Dead.. probably Dead) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Fun Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 U are all looking at the new caracters and say, he has no downside, try to look at the caracters that came before him, or the ones that haven't been refreshed yet. U can say that that Walter has no downside, but whats Winona's downside, what about Willow's (a termal stone can just negate hers), MaxWell, whats his down side? less health, with ur kiting that also becomes not a problem, what downside does Webber have? pigs hate him, barelly a problem after u lern how to play around it( and the list goes on). Caracters never really had a Verry high downsides, we were just noobs. Once u learn the game u can just not give a damn about any "downside", that's just how it is. (Sorry for my bad english) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatmanagement Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr.Fun said: U are all looking at the new caracters and say, he has no downside, try to look at the caracters that came before him, or the ones that haven't been refreshed yet. U can say that that Walter has no downside, but whats Winona's downside, what about Willow's (a termal stone can just negate hers), MaxWell, whats his down side? less health, with ur kiting that also becomes not a problem, what downside does Webber have? pigs hate him, barelly a problem after u lern how to play around it( and the list goes on). Caracters never really had a Verry high downsides, we were just noobs. Once u learn the game u can just not give a damn about any "downside", that's just how it is. (Sorry for my bad english) Winona's downside is her hemorrhaging hunger when she crafts; she herself doesn't have that many perks to begin with in the first place as well though. Willow's downside of taking 2x freezing damage and retaining less heat from clothing is a downside also... a downside being negatable does not mean it's no longer there. Maxwell's downsides is his low HP, and him summoning shadow minions (using his most prominent power) decreases his maximum sanity; his sanity regeneration also makes it hard to go insane (unless you summon lots of minions). Webber's downside is him being considered a monster and being targetted by pigs, catcoons and bunnymen... It's also harder for Webbers to base with other characters because the presence of pigs, catcoons and bunnymen are pretty common in a lot of bases (especially public server bases) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagherthegamer Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Walter is fine. Just because youre good at the game dosent mean the game is bad. Alot of dst players dont know how to kite and even then there are still other things to worry about. Alot of places to take damage means alot of potential sanity loss which is another problem Beginners cant deal with. His slingshot is good in team combat and can deal dammage without ruining other team members kiting. If you think his bee alergy is a bad diwnside then i sugest you try to solo beequeen. (with no cheeze that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Rage Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 He ruins the immersion by running around with a big smile and happy looking face and healthy appearance, even when fighting the Ancient Fuelweaver.:/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpmrocks Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 6 hours ago, bagherthegamer said: Walter is fine. Just because youre good at the game dosent mean the game is bad. Alot of dst players dont know how to kite and even then there are still other things to worry about. Alot of places to take damage means alot of potential sanity loss which is another problem Beginners cant deal with. His slingshot is good in team combat and can deal dammage without ruining other team members kiting. If you think his bee alergy is a bad diwnside then i sugest you try to solo beequeen. (with no cheeze that is) Not beeing able to fight BQ should at all be a justification to Walter having no downsides. One boss out of 12 bosses is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, jpmrocks said: Not beeing able to fight BQ should at all be a justification to Walter having no downsides. One boss out of 12 bosses is a joke. with that useless bundle wrap and jellybeans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrel12 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 22 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said: Yet I concur his sanity-tied-to-hp is not that original or fun. A forumite proposed Walter's main con be related to allergies (here) which imo would be more interesting. Imagine if he could be affected by pollen (Flowers, Butterflies, Moon Moths, and Butter Muffins), Honey (also all honey-centered meals), nuts, Bees and cats, BQ plus Antlion. And those allergies could manifest as swollen face (visually) and not being able to eat for a certain amount of time (mechanically); also inherent additional dmg - an idea. I WANT THIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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