Jumbo X smart kJ waste

[gaucho_tche]

Does anyone know how many kJ the jumbo and the smart battery waste per cycle?

[Chthonicone]

Battery loses 1 kJ/cycle for 1.25 kJ/cycle as heat (125% conversion)

Jumbo Battery loses 2 kJ/cycle for 1.25 kJ/cycle as heat (62.5% conversion)

Smart Battery loses 0.4 kJ/cycle for 0.5 kJ/cycle as heat (125% conversion)

[CannedSmeef]

17 hours ago, Chthonicone said:

Battery loses 1 kJ/cycle for 1.25 kJ/cycle as heat (125% conversion)

Jumbo Battery loses 2 kJ/cycle for 1.25 kJ/cycle as heat (62.5% conversion)

Smart Battery loses 0.4 kJ/cycle for 0.5 kJ/cycle as heat (125% conversion)

If Tiny Batteries generate more heat than they lose in power, then theoretically if you clustered enough of them together in one insulated chamber you could make an infinite steam power machine.  Im gonna tinker with this later

[Chthonicone]

28 minutes ago, CannedSmeef said:

If Tiny Batteries generate more heat than they lose in power, then theoretically if you clustered enough of them together in one insulated chamber you could make an infinite steam power machine.  Im gonna tinker with this later

I'm not sure if the steam turbine provides a 100% or even an 80% efficient transformation of heat to power though. If it's any worse than 80% you're system will still stop. Plus don't the batteries break at a certain temp? Are you really going to make a steel battery?

[Yunru]

9 minutes ago, Chthonicone said:

Are you really going to make a steel battery?

I would, just so I can go:

"What's powering the battery? The battery."

[Bobasour]

17 hours ago, Chthonicone said:

Battery loses 1 kJ/cycle for 1.25 kJ/cycle as heat (125% conversion)

Jumbo Battery loses 2 kJ/cycle for 1.25 kJ/cycle as heat (62.5% conversion)

Smart Battery loses 0.4 kJ/cycle for 0.5 kJ/cycle as heat (125% conversion)

How did you get the heat in Joules? Is there a known conversion ratio between DTU and Joules? In game it only says battery losing 1.25kDTU/s. If 1kDTU is close to 1J (l'm looking at the conversion rate of steam turbine), then batteries really only generate 750J/cycle instead of 1.25kJ/cycle, which is a heat conversion ratio of only 75%.

[Chthonicone]

1 hour ago, Bobasour said:

How did you get the heat in Joules? Is there a known conversion ratio between DTU and Joules? In game it only says battery losing 1.25kDTU/s. If 1kDTU is close to 1J (l'm looking at the conversion rate of steam turbine), then batteries really only generate 750J/cycle instead of 1.25kJ/cycle, which is a heat conversion ratio of only 75%.

The math they use works out so 1 DTU = 1 Joule. In fact they created a pointless abstraction to hide this fact.

Just look at the specific heat for water, it's 4.179 DTU/(kg*K), well in real units it's 4.179 J/(kg*K)

So in truth, a DTU = J, it's just whether or not you're talking about heat, and honestly I think the DTU is plain dumb.

[Bobasour]

2 hours ago, Chthonicone said:

The math they use works out so 1 DTU = 1 Joule. In fact they created a pointless abstraction to hide this fact.

Just look at the specific heat for water, it's 4.179 DTU/(kg*K), well in real units it's 4.179 J/(kg*K)

So in truth, a DTU = J, it's just whether or not you're talking about heat, and honestly I think the DTU is plain dumb.

I believe 1 Joule should equal to 1kDTU. Mind you battery generates heat at 1.25kDTU per second, not per cycle. It makes no sense it can generate 1.25kJ of heat per second while its power runoff is only 1kJ/cycle.

I think what they did is just reduced the in-game SHC of water by a factor of 1000, otherwise the maths on steam turbine doesn't work. Steam turbine at full capacity takes in 2kg of water at 200C and reduce it to 95C. That is 877590DTU removed per second. Meanwhile it generates 850J/s. That's about 1:1000 ratio between Joules and DTUs. Unless steam turbine is just so bad it only converts 0.1% of the heat deleted into power...

Well, the only way we can really tell how DTUs convert to Joules is by looking at how heat converts to energy and vice versa. Steam turbine is the most direct measure. You can also look at how much heat each machine generates. For most of the machineries, the power to heat ratio (in J and kDTU respectively) is about 100 to 1. So 1% of the power is lost into thermal energy. I definitely overlooked the fact that you can compare SHC of water in game versus in real life, but it just doesn't make sense how every machine in this game generates 10 times as much thermal energy as they consume power if 1DTU is truly 1J.

With that said, yeah I totally agree the introduction of DTU as a unit for thermal energy is overcomplicating things. I don't think there's even an entry in the database about what DTU is.

[storm6436]

They're probably worried that new players would get confused seeing joules referenced for both electrical energy and heat.  Most people are blissfully unaware that all heat is is disordered energy.  Ah, the joys of watching heads explode in100-200 level physics classes... the good old days.

[Chthonicone]

4 hours ago, Bobasour said:

I believe 1 Joule should equal to 1kDTU. Mind you battery generates heat at 1.25kDTU per second, not per cycle. It makes no sense it can generate 1.25kJ of heat per second while its power runoff is only 1kJ/cycle.

I think what they did is just reduced the in-game SHC of water by a factor of 1000, otherwise the maths on steam turbine doesn't work. Steam turbine at full capacity takes in 2kg of water at 200C and reduce it to 95C. That is 877590DTU removed per second. Meanwhile it generates 850J/s. That's about 1:1000 ratio between Joules and DTUs. Unless steam turbine is just so bad it only converts 0.1% of the heat deleted into power...

Well, the only way we can really tell how DTUs convert to Joules is by looking at how heat converts to energy and vice versa. Steam turbine is the most direct measure. You can also look at how much heat each machine generates. For most of the machineries, the power to heat ratio (in J and kDTU respectively) is about 100 to 1. So 1% of the power is lost into thermal energy. I definitely overlooked the fact that you can compare SHC of water in game versus in real life, but it just doesn't make sense how every machine in this game generates 10 times as much thermal energy as they consume power if 1DTU is truly 1J.

With that said, yeah I totally agree the introduction of DTU as a unit for thermal energy is overcomplicating things. I don't think there's even an entry in the database about what DTU is.

I hadn't looked too hard at the math in the steam turbines yet, so yes, you're obviously right in this case.

Still, I'm of the opinion that heat should neither be created nor destroyed. It should perform work somehow, but that's just me. Maybe It'll get tweaked more later.

3 hours ago, storm6436 said:

They're probably worried that new players would get confused seeing joules referenced for both electrical energy and heat.  Most people are blissfully unaware that all heat is is disordered energy.  Ah, the joys of watching heads explode in100-200 level physics classes... the good old days.

At the very least they could have put something in the game to tell those looking 1 J = 1 kDTU

You know, now that I think of it, cooling water 14 degrees is 4.179 * 10 kg * 14 = 585.06 DTUs or 0.58506 J/s at most. Why is an aquatuner considered efficient for cooling in a steam turbine?

Super coolant is 1.1816 J/s at most, it's not even good since it requires 1200 J/s (1.2 kW) to cool that way.

Ignore that, it turns out I thought specific heat in the game was measured in DTU/(kg*K) instead of the DTU/(g*K) that it actually uses. Things aren't as dreary as I thought, though still you never make back your investment.

[Maxposting]

What the hell is actually DTU? I never heard of it in my physics class...

[Chthonicone]

5 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

What the hell is actually DTU? I never heard of it in my physics class...

It's a made up temperature unit used in ONI.

[xialeth]

What do the letters stand for? I've been wondering for ages ..."Direct Temperature Unit"?

[Chthonicone]

11 minutes ago, xialeth said:

What do the letters stand for? I've been wondering for ages ..."Direct Temperature Unit"?

BTU stands for British Thermal Unit, so I guess DTU stands for Dupe Thermal Unit?

[storm6436]

1 hour ago, Chthonicone said:

BTU stands for British Thermal Unit, so I guess DTU stands for Dupe Thermal Unit?

That's it.

 

5 hours ago, Chthonicone said:

I hadn't looked too hard at the math in the steam turbines yet, so yes, you're obviously right in this case.

Still, I'm of the opinion that heat should neither be created nor destroyed. It should perform work somehow, but that's just me. Maybe It'll get tweaked more later.

At the very least they could have put something in the game to tell those looking 1 J = 1 kDTU

You know, now that I think of it, cooling water 14 degrees is 4.179 * 10 kg * 14 = 585.06 DTUs or 0.58506 J/s at most. Why is an aquatuner considered efficient for cooling in a steam turbine?

Super coolant is 1.1816 J/s at most, it's not even good since it requires 1200 J/s (1.2 kW) to cool that way.

Ignore that, it turns out I thought specific heat in the game was measured in DTU/(kg*K) instead of the DTU/(g*K) that it actually uses. Things aren't as dreary as I thought, though still you never make back your investment.

 Pretty sure that's an artifact from much earlier in the game's development.  I *vaguely* remember a massive "bonus" being applied somewhere in the formulas and that they basically hid it away by jumping J->DTU.

[Blazing Falken]

On 9/23/2019 at 3:49 PM, CannedSmeef said:

If Tiny Batteries generate more heat than they lose in power, then theoretically if you clustered enough of them together in one insulated chamber you could make an infinite steam power machine.  Im gonna tinker with this later

It takes a lot of them and it's very much not worth it other than to say you've done it, trust me... 

However, if you still want to do it, use transformers and charge them instead. They will put off the heat but lose none of the charge.

 

[cblack]

1 hour ago, Blazing Falken said:

However, if you still want to do it, use transformers and charge them instead. They will put off the heat but lose none of the charge.

I'm pretty sure transformers only generate heat when power passes through them.  Otherwise I'd have a much hotter base than I actually have.

[Blazing Falken]

8 hours ago, cblack said:

I'm pretty sure transformers only generate heat when power passes through them.  Otherwise I'd have a much hotter base than I actually have.

Trust me, I've been down this road more than a few times in pursuit of free energy.

 

 

[Yunru]

13 minutes ago, Blazing Falken said:

Trust me, I've been down this road more than a few times in pursuit of free energy.

 

 

But but but!

@mathmanican hasn't built a super-massive exploit machine out of it!

[mathmanican]

44 minutes ago, Yunru said:

hasn't built a super-massive exploit machine out of it!

It was already done by @Boxman_90.

Spoiler

There is actually some useful heat transfer stuff in the post, along with this silly build. 

 

I try very hard to not reproduce stuff that has already been posted, or if I do, then I do my best to give credit (even if the post was 2 years ago). 

What I do instead is cover the transformer in 10g of two stacked liquids (though its better with a blob of liquid and then vacuum, but then I have to have a vac chamber). Then the heat transfer is completely nerfed (float num10 = Mathf.Min(a, 1.5f) / 1.5f;). Works on batteries and kilns as well, so I can run my kilns 600s a cycle, and never have to worry about overheating. Not sure if this one is listed on the ONI University page @BLACKBERREST3, but it is a very simple way to stop several machines from producing any (noticeable) heat. 

 

[BLACKBERREST3]

2 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Not sure if this one is listed on the ONI University page @BLACKBERREST3, but it is a very simple way to stop several machines from producing any (noticeable) heat.

Yep, I already added that one under building/poi interactions. I put it under that instead of heat transfer because you said 

Quote

There is a check to see if the contents over the building have a mass above 1.5kg. If they don't, then the temperature released to the environment is proportionally reduced.

I could move it under heat transfer if that is more clear.

I'm going to have to give petty perpetual a read. I'm working on battery switching shutoffs and edge detectors right now.

[BLACKBERREST3]

read it, pretty great build for the time. If the petty perpetual build were to be revisited, it could be slightly improved with all the new buildings and automatons we have now. Still doesn't make it a viable feasible exploit unless you mine planets for raw metals indefinitely.