Asking for fire immunity is meaningless

[OMERICA]

I said what I said. You are never gonna be exposed to fire more then few seconds anyway. Except maybe when fighting Dragonfly but I mean when was the last time you burn to death? I am all about strong and not bland characters but for Willow that will not make her more or less interesting. Instead I prefer focusing another fire related powers. 

[FreyaMaluk]

fire immunity is so situational.. when u think about it... and 6 seconds fire immunity now sounds pretty fun 

[Spep]

as has been said so many times, in so many other threads, its not to prevent taking damage, its to use fire more liberally as a method of, attack, sanity gain, trapping, hound attack prevention, and theoretically PVP.

[FreyaMaluk]

1 minute ago, Shpee said:

as has been said so many times, in so many other threads, its not to prevent taking damage, its to use fire more liberally as a method of, attack, sanity gain, trapping, hound attack prevention, and theoretically PVP.

here from another post

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as we can see in this list here compiled by @Chris1448 there are some uses for fire immunity indeed..

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/105367-willow-refresh-info-and-roadmap-schedule-update/?do=findComment&comment=1185030

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List of what Willow can benefit from with 100% fire immunity:

- Fight burning mobs with no trouble

- Capitalize on sanity and warmth from standing on top of fires, especially in Winter

- Extremely helpful in the Dragonfly fight when dealing with Enraged DF and Lavae

- Be able to stand on top of DF's Lava Pools and use them as simple campfires

- Wall in mobs and fight within a ring of fire (@Fidooop)

- Ignore the burn of Klaus' Red Deer attack (@Papa Zach)

but all these instances are very niche things (Dfly and Fire No Eyed Deer).. the most beneficial effects will be seen in winter and after that there isn't really anything

fighting burning mobs isn't really a bit deal for her either for her 3 seconds fire immunity and it won't with her improved 6 seconds immunity

standing on top of fires should would be able to do anyways with the buff to 6 seconds fire immunity.. just not as long as if immune.. 

she could be closer to lava pools as any character can.. she can stand a bit longer now  and closer (improved overheating too with update)

the fire no eyed deer can be mitigated with an ice staff... so this is really not that relevant IMO

Dfly... I mean I never bother to fight the larvae.. they are kinda irrelevant if you build a wall or wall off an arena or the lava pools...

and you can put Dfly to sleep when she enrages.. so again this isn't really that beneficial 

and with sanity you can achieve the same with a scaled armor..

[Spep]

2 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

here from another post

and with sanity you can achieve the same with a scaled armor..

1, yes, these are niche things, that's the point, 2, fighting burning creatures is not a immense issue, yes, however, neither is just stabbing them, using fire to fight would be entertaining, currently, with the current buffs, and with the suggested immunity, it is easier to do so, if ye already went this far, why not go all the way? 3, standing on top of fires, while it can be done forever with the scale mail, and with 6 seconds of immunity, is quite doable for sanity, however, if standing in, say, a tree farm that has been set ablaze for the express reason of dealing with a hound/worm attack, or anything else you don't need the drops from, it would be quite nice to have that full immunity, sitting in the middle of the blaze, laughing at the beasts that attempt to strike you, would it not? plus, the scale mail argument is not a real argument, thats like saying you can achieve the same thing as wortox with a lazy explorer, sure, you can, but they aint exactly coming out of your ears AND saving up that extra slot now are they? 4, he can in fact be closer to lava pools, this however goes back to my previous argument, hiding out via bush hat/shell next to a magma pool, while hordes of angry beasts burn themselves upon it would be quite handy, if niche. 5, can get more hits in while the animation is occuring, making things overall quicker,  irrelevant yes, but not completely pointless, 6/7, not everyone uses the wall strategy, some prefer to simply run, letting the larvae die off by themselves, again niche but also not pointless, again, already this far, why not go the full way and get a few extra goodies? plus, letting the willow fight enraged dfly is simply saving pan flute/sleepytime charges for a diffrent time,  yet again, niche, but with its place. TL/DR, well yes, but actually, no.

in the end fire immunity is just one of many things that would make willow, well, a fire starter, instead of a army construction device

[HeatAndRun]

like, see, Willow is a normal person, not a dragonfly.

[Trenix]

How many perks should a character have before it's considered worthy? How many perks do we need for each character and character combination before the game becomes a joke to play. If you guys want easy survival, go play minecraft.

[Spep]

28 minutes ago, Trenix said:

How many perks should a character have before it's considered worthy? How many perks do we need for each character and character combination before the game becomes a joke to play. If you guys want easy survival, go play minecraft.

we need exactly fun perks and debuffs, or its bad, end of story.

[Trenix]

2 hours ago, Shpee said:

we need exactly fun perks and debuffs, or its bad, end of story.

These are fun perks, also for debuffs I'm assuming you mean weaknesses. Weaknesses are never fun, they're there for balance.

2 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

Beh, DST is not a difficult game.

Then who cares of how Willow is designed.

[GenomeSquirrel]

42 minutes ago, Trenix said:

How many perks should a character have before it's considered worthy? How many perks do we need for each character and character combination before the game becomes a joke to play. If you guys want easy survival, go play minecraft.

Quality > Quantity 

No one is going to care about saving fuel with two dedicated lumberjack characters 

What are you going to do with 6 seconds of fire immunity 

How many times are you going to be close enough to smoldering objects for that to matter

[Spep]

Just now, Trenix said:

These are fun perks, also for debuffs I'm assuming you mean weaknesses. Weaknesses are never fun, they're there for balance.

weaknesses are never fun you say? these are fun perks you say? first off, have you ever tried maxwell? or any glass cannon ever devised? the perks as is, aside from the bernie buff that we will have to wait and see, are negligable, things that people never work with anyway, such as holding bernie for warmth and sanity, and putting out smouldering things without taking damage, these are things that, if you are another character, have no issue dealing with, things that can be obtained first year by anybody that knows how to walk at something correctly can obtain, such as the tam o shanter, or a ice flingo, or, what was her other new perks again? oh right, almost forgot due to them all being boring, more damage from the cold? we have winter hats + thermal, more fire resistance? might as well go the whole nine yards, overheat resistance? caves, ice cube hat+thermal, all of these in their current state are, again, negligable to the game as a whole, why pick willow when you can pick webber with his intresting spider perks? or winona for her great late/mid game catapults? willow needs something intresting, some would call it a gimmick, something that makes you want to pick em over other characters, currently? don't have that.

[watermelen671]

So if, in a hypothetical scenario, Klei gave Willow fire immunity, would people actually be satisfied?

Probably not, as then the forums would then be flooded with people whining about how Willow is now too OP because she has fire immunity, or something else that's "wrong" with her perks/weaknesses.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in my own cynical way, is that Klei tries so hard to re-balance a character and nobody cares because it's not EXACTLY what they wanted it to be.

We saw this with Wheeler. People were complaining about her 5 slot inventory, so Klei boosted it to a 15 slot inventory, and then people started complaining about her 15 slot inventory.

[GenomeSquirrel]

7 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

So if, in a hypothetical scenario, Klei gave Willow fire immunity, would people actually be satisfied?

Probably not, as then the forums would then be flooded with people whining about how Willow is now too OP because she has fire immunity, or something else that's "wrong" with her perks/weaknesses.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in my own cynical way, is that Klei tries so hard to re-balance a character and nobody cares because it's not EXACTLY what they wanted it to be.

We saw this with Wheeler. People were complaining about her 5 slot inventory, so Klei boosted it to a 15 slot inventory, and then people started complaining about her 15 slot inventory.

If they call her op, let them say why

Right now, she only excels at living in summer relative to other characters.

[dameJuno]

her being immune to fire in no way at all would make her op it would just make her a more fun character to play as you would be able to stand in the fire for sanity gain and not have to worry about it, it fits her theme and would just make her that much more fun without messing with balance, i don’t see why people who are disappointed by her not receiving this and giving their honest feedback, something which the devs will look at and likely consider are being scolded for being rude or inconsiderate, it’s what made willow so fun in don’t starve and in don’t starve together at the moment and even with this rework the fact that she lacks that immunity will turn some people off and just there’s no reason NOT to have it

[watermelen671]

Just now, Moabjk said:

her being immune to fire in no way at all would make her op it would just make her a more fun character to play as you would be able to stand in the fire for sanity gain and not have to worry about it, it fits her theme and would just make her that much more fun without messing with balance,

I'm not saying it'd make her OP, in no way shape or form. Honestly I don't really care either way.

And I can see it from both sides. However my main point of contention is just that fire and DST don't really mix, like at all.

So many people want her to be able to play with fire, launching it at enemies and scorching areas with no ability to put it out. Which I see as just begging for trouble, even though I clearly understand that griefing will still happen either way.

With the way some people are going with this, they want Klei to embrace her pyromaniac nature and burn the world for their entertainment. What they fail to understand, is...what about everybody else? How do these abilities help the other people playing in the server? It doesn't.

Also, what I see when people ask to give Willow back her fire immunity, is people asking for a threat to be removed for a character. What if Klei made a character that was immune to being frozen? Or gave a perk that they're immune to frog rain? Or that they prevent disease from happening? All still very niche, however it's still just removing a threat or a mechanic that's in the game to...well, pose a threat to players!

It'd be like making WX able to craft and read The End is Nigh, although not as completely broken as that'd be.

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, Pop Guy said:

useless comment to the discussion, the moderator should remove it.

Except...it's on topic. There's no reason to censor discussion just because I voiced an UNPOPULAR OPINION.

Also, I'm unsure if you're trolling or not, because your comment is the one that's off-topic ma dude.

[GenomeSquirrel]

2 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

Also, what I see when people ask to give Willow back her fire immunity, is people asking for a threat to be removed for a character. What if Klei made a character that was immune to being frozen? Or gave a perk that they're immune to frog rain? Or that they prevent disease from happening? All still very niche, however it's still just removing a threat or a mechanic that's in the game to...well, pose a threat to players!

The reason games have different characters in the first place is to have them be unique, open some doors and close some. There’s plenty of other threats remaining.

[dameJuno]

i do think that they may have meant it, as it’s fine to disagree with others but saying that voicing ones opinion on a character they think could use some work is ‘useless’ is a bit much, especially when the proposed change would really just make the character more fun, also how often have you died to fire if ever, i don’t think fire immunity is the same by any means as removing being frozen yes fire damage is a mechanic but so is losing sanity, by your own logic maxwell shouldn’t have that crazy regen bc it removes something he has to worry about and that makes the game worse off somehow

[Toroic]

16 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

So if, in a hypothetical scenario, Klei gave Willow fire immunity, would people actually be satisfied?

Probably not, as then the forums would then be flooded with people whining about how Willow is now too OP because she has fire immunity, or something else that's "wrong" with her perks/weaknesses.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in my own cynical way, is that Klei tries so hard to re-balance a character and nobody cares because it's not EXACTLY what they wanted it to be.

We saw this with Wheeler. People were complaining about her 5 slot inventory, so Klei boosted it to a 15 slot inventory, and then people started complaining about her 15 slot inventory.

The thing that most people forget is that the forums are not a homogeneous group, there are players of vastly different levels of experience and understanding.  DST is a game that looks very different from the perspective of a skilled player and a new one, and the same applies for perks.

I think it's an unfounded assumption that you can't please everyone, but to do that I believe requires that the character have clear advantages and disadvantages in both skilled and unskilled hands.  I don't think that's a necessary design constraint, so you're going to have characters like Wheeler that were perfectly balanced pre-buff in the (more accurate) perspective of an experienced player, and seen as "useless" by new players by the very nature of her abilities.  How can we expect new players to be able to appreciate and accurately evaluate mechanics they aren't capable of utilizing yet?

In short, I'm saying that while there's never going to be zero complaining about a character, there's definitely the potential for no *informed* complaining about a character.

Some people might find that perspective elitist, but anyone who has played this game for a long time knows that where a new player sees a hostile landscape teeming with danger, an experienced player sees a playground overflowing with food and resources.  They can't both be right.

 

[Trenix]

2 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Quality > Quantity 

You're not asking for quality over quantity, you're asking perks that is far superior than what other characters have. Furthermore there is a back and forth between fire immunity of being overpowered and just a neat feature. Which is it? If Willow were to get it, would that make a difference? No it wouldn't, because you guys will still feel that Willow isn't as good as other characters anyway. So what exactly is the point of this? Vent just to vent?

[watermelen671]

1 hour ago, Moabjk said:

i don’t think fire immunity is the same by any means as removing being frozen yes fire damage is a mechanic but so is losing sanity, by your own logic maxwell shouldn’t have that crazy regen bc it removes something he has to worry about and that makes the game worse off somehow

Except that going off of your example with Maxwell, it wouldn't be that he wouldn't have crazy sanity regen, it would be that he wouldn't lose sanity at all. 

And what I mean by the "not being frozen" is the situational occurance that happens with deerclops, klaus and ice hounds, where you are frozen and immobile for a few seconds. Not being completely winter-proof like a overcharged WX in winter.

[Trenix]

2 hours ago, Shpee said:

willow needs something intresting, some would call it a gimmick, something that makes you want to pick em over other characters, currently? don't have that.

You also have no suggestion to provide that and again, all I'm getting from you is that you want some perk that is overpowered. Many other characters need a nerf. What's next, Willow doesn't need wood to start a fire? Why not just continue to make all characters have easy mode. Why are we even trying to survive in this game? Maybe willow should get the button which wins a game, because reasons.

[watermelen671]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Some people might find that perspective elitist, but anyone who has played this game for a long time knows that where a new player sees a hostile landscape teeming with danger, an experienced player sees a playground overflowing with food and resources.  They can't both be right.

...except yes they are. 

A playground overflowing with food and resources and a hostile landscape teeming with danger aren't mutually exclusive, because that's literally what Don't Starve is.

A hostile landscape overflowing with food and resources. 

Am I missing something? 

1 hour ago, Toros said:

In short, I'm saying that while there's never going to be zero complaining about a character, there's definitely the potential for no *informed* complaining about a character.

May I please refer you to the Wickerbottom/Wolfgang/Wigfrid Wars, that are still ongoing?

[GenomeSquirrel]

Just now, Trenix said:

You're not asking for quality over quantity, you're asking perks that is far superior than what other characters have. Furthermore there is a back and forth between fire immunity of being overpowered and just a neat feature. Which is it? If it Willow were to get it, would that make a difference? No it wouldn't, because you guys will still feel that Willow isn't as good as other characters anyway. So what exactly is the point of this? Vent just to vent?

How is it superior?

I want it because it is a unique toy that I will have fun trying, and likely failing, to make useful. It’s the foundation of unexplored territory.

 

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, Trenix said:

Maybe willow should get the button which wins a game, because reasons.

No, they're saving that for the eventual Charlie character DLC.