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BOT Tuja

Your Character Balance Ideas

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BOT Tuja    31

I think it is time that I comment on my own topic.

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1 hour ago, Atkvin said:

Winona's Toolbox can be set down to grant her a unique crafting tab that allows her to craft Kits (that she can prototype by using the Toolbox near already built structures) - these Kits are limited-use mini versions of structures such as the Alchemy Engine or Crockpot, made with cheaper recipes and can be carried (one at a time), set down or picked back up using her Toolbox, allowing her to carry around mobile Alchemy Engines or Crockpots useful for early-game exploration and spelunking, especially for complementing characters such as Wigfrid underground. (maybe this could be expanded upon with more types of Kits, specifically for things like automation or magic? dunno)

I think these kits and the Toolbox could work, but aren't easy to implement, and I mean t by use, and not by coding (although I have no idea about it). If I'm correct, Shipwrecked has an Item, that is basically a portable Alchemy Engine, and it also has a portable crockpot, meaning that if these 2 are done right, they can work. However, outside of those 2 things, there aren't any structures that would benefit from being portable. This is mostly due to the fact, that we do have portable variants of them: Ice Box - Insulated Pack, Ice Flingomatic - Luxury Fan. 

1 hour ago, Atkvin said:

To add to this, these Kits limited in use could be repairable through her Trusty Tapes - just slightly distinguishing her Trusty Tapes and giving them additional use to Winona specifically apart from being cheaper Sewing Kits.

I like how you avoided the "Trusty tape should fix everything" idea, yet provided a good buff to the item.

1 hour ago, Atkvin said:

Winona's other perk will come in her "indomitable spirit" from working in harsh conditions; when one of her stats are low, she will gain speed and sanity scaling with how low the stat is, allowing her to toughen out or escape and resolve her stats as well as slightly keep with her being more beginner-friendly (her slight Charlie resistance) while hopefully having applications such as complementing her Toolbox in being a stronger spelunker and tenacious survivor.

Aside from all that, I really feel that crafting should be an integral part of Winona's play-style from her core identity as an assembly line worker. I really like the idea that she should lose a tiny amount of hunger when crafting anything... but I think she should also gain a small amount of health (5 hunger, 7.5 health? just throwing around numbers here) from crafting simultaneously. This way, Winona won't be discouraged from using her quick-crafting perk due to a downside to crafting as she has equal-if-not-more incentive to do so in order to regain health.

 

These ideas aren't that bad, and could be implemented in some way.

1 hour ago, Atkvin said:

Additionally, she should gain the ability to multi-craft when she is near a Science Machine or Alchemy Engine, or their respective Kit versions allowing her to factory-craft a ton of resources for bases, armor and clothes for her allies, and so on, given the resources.

I don't see this as something that would be handy. She can already craft faster than other characters. Other players can craft at the same time. If you are base building, you probably have a lot of time to do it, or could just take a break if anything important comes into play.

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Overall, some of these could work, some aren't that good, but that doesn't matter. Even if all of them were good, Klei couldn't just go and add 4 more perks to Winona, while keeping her old ones.

I like how most of your Ideas were good for the player itself, and not just the team. Yes, Klei could make the Trusty Tape into FlextapeTM, enabling it to fix anything, but that would only make that item good, not Winona. Most players would just switch characters, craft a billion FlextapeTM, then switch back to the one they were playing as before.

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avilmask    104
5 hours ago, Atkvin said:

Aside from all that, I really feel that crafting should be an integral part of Winona's play-style from her core identity as an assembly line worker. I really like the idea that she should lose a tiny amount of hunger when crafting anything... but I think she should also gain a small amount of health (5 hunger, 7.5 health? just throwing around numbers here) from crafting simultaneously. This way, Winona won't be discouraged from using her quick-crafting perk due to a downside to crafting as she has equal-if-not-more incentive to do so in order to regain health.

This is actually pretty bad. It means she shouldn't craft most of the time (because decent players don't lose health, and it's rare when they feel stressed to heal outside of eating food). Also healing from crafting doesn't seem logical. Sanity gain could do, but healing?

Not quite sure I understood additional value of tape the same way as @BOT Tuja did (wasn't it that tapes can fix Wenonas "special kits"?), but I actually like the idea of Wenona being able to reuse (almost) broken, usually unrepairable, stuff using tapes, but only she alone. That fits the handyman description perfectly. There should be a limitation for items to be badly worn out (below 25%, I guess), or it could lead to griefing. And taped up unfixable items shouldn't be tapeabled again, of course.

"don't throw away or use up all your almost broken stuff! I still can use it!" :3

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maradyne    4988

If some crafting stat gain were added, I'd rather her gain 1/5/10/15/20/25 sanity points per craft, depending on tech tier (Base, Science, Alch, Presti, Shadow, Ancient), with other 'unique' crafting buildings falling under Presti tier. More helpful stat to new players, makes more sense narrativly, fits with preexisting perks (Woodie and Maxwell).
And a flat, unavoidable boost to her hunger drain rate rather than per-craft drain, so players aren't encouraged not to craft in order to avoid it. Also fits with the game title.

I stand by the idea that Flex Tape should be able to fix tools, equipment, ect, but with the stipulation that only Winona could use it on anything besides clothing; like Willow using her Lighter to cook.

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Atkvin    618
9 hours ago, avilmask said:

This is actually pretty bad. It means she shouldn't craft most of the time (because decent players don't lose health, and it's rare when they feel stressed to heal outside of eating food). Also healing from crafting doesn't seem logical. Sanity gain could do, but healing?

This was intended to be the main downside to her to offset the other buffs, especially since hunger is the titular mechanic of the game and my version of Winona would have a portable cookpot to better sustain herself anyways. Ironically, I wanted a hunger-health exchange namely to appeal to those more experienced players - food should be no big issue to them either i.e Wolfgang, and the health gain could be played around with multicrafting to heal her very quickly and make her (potentially brokenly) tenacious.

I do agree it makes less sense than sanity, but Wigfrid also gains health from hitting someone, so I hoped a little leap of logic would be negligible in making her gameplay more interesting.

9 hours ago, avilmask said:

I actually like the idea of Wenona being able to reuse (almost) broken, usually unrepairable, stuff using tapes, but only she alone.

I like this idea in regards to whatever her profession actually is (how many jobs does she work??), but this is basically allowing Trusty Tape to heal tools and armor but slightly less intuitive as the player has to do it under a set percentage.. Maybe Tape should just be able to fix low-levelled tools and armor and only that with some reasoning about Winona's dislike of 'snooty' stuff so we don't have to worry about Thulecite, magic and other stuff.

Maybe instead of outright fixing them, Tape could be used on low/whenever durability tools or armor to simply slow down further durability degradation or even halt it completely, while keeping its previous ability to sew clothes? And this could last til the item breaks or have a set percentage of durability the Tape can absorb before needing to be reapplied.

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maradyne    4988

...personally, I'd say go for broke and make Flex Tape more expensive, involving Silk, Papyrus, and...I dunno, Honey? But let it fix anything that doesn't involve a Gem (again, only working on Clothes if someone besides Winona is using the tape).
Kinda like how the Deconstruction staff functions; you can deconstruct anything that has components, but gems involved in crafting 'shatter' and don't drop.

Not terribly worried about Thulecite/other expensive items being extended through use of the tape since there are numerous recovery/dupe/renewable sources of those things anyway. The players still at least have to go through the trouble of obtaining those items for the first time.

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pedregales    493

My balance ideas for each character:

Wilson. Nothing, he is the basic character and should remain as such.

Willow. She is almost fine as is, and most of what I will recommend will not really change her playstyle much. There is a mod, Distracter Willow, that already adds everything I will mention (minus the last one), but would be nice to have it on the base game, specially for the first 2 ideas.

Spoiler
  1. Allow everyone to cook on her lighter (indirect buff). It is pretty handy as a portable campfire/fire pit for when you want to cook a couple things on the fly while cave spelunking or simply nomading (if you want to mass cook things, a campfire is a much better option); of course, only Willow can use it as such, for other characters it is just a much more expensive torch that lasts longer. This would make her a much more valuable teamplayer.
  2. Give her her fire immunity back (buff). Would make farming for charcoal and sanity that much easier, not to mention that to get any meaningful sanity increase you have to place your face on the fire.
  3. Let Bernie distract hostile creatures (like hounds, werepigs, and depth worms), not just nightmare creatures (Bernie buff). Would make the little bear much more useful specially for boss fighting (and unexpected ), of course, giants would have to be immune. Just like in The Forge.
  4. When in summer, she should not overheat if she is insane (buff). Kinda weird that she lowers temperature while insane, but in summer she overheats just as easily (or maybe slightly slower, haven't really tested, but it seems regular speed); would be nice if she were a character that has an easier time on summer with less gear (you will still need summer gear, just not as much).

Wolfgang. Another one that is fine (although I don't enjoy him much). Of course, he could use a little re-work that is kind of a nerf.

Spoiler
  1. Make his Mighty Form 10% slower than a regular character, and give him 20% damage resistance while in this form (nerf and re-work). This way he is not the "duper monster kiter" that can almost literally solo every giant with very little preparation (Bee Queen and Ancient Fuelweaver are pretty much the only ones that give him trouble for solo fighting, also Evil Toadstool, but that one has 100K health, so...), but a very different playstyle of tanking enemies on mighty (this also encourages to be mighty only against giants). Of course, it would also be necessary to make him immune to attacks that force players to drop weapons (like Bearger's slap and earthquake attacks, or G/Goose's honk), otherwise those enemies would just be annoying to fight as Wolfgang.
  2. Make his Wimpy Form 10% faster than a regular character (buff). To counter the lack of speed buff. Would make changing between forms a bit more interesting: Wimpy for scouting, Regular for monster fighting, and Mighty for fighting some giants.

Wendy. I think she is fine too. Doesn't take away that I want to see Sisters Reunited as an official thing.

Spoiler
  1. Make Abigail revivable and let players choose which sister to play at any given time through a button (re-work). This would make her rather interesting, being able to be at 2 places at the same time, having to manage 2 health, sanity, and hunger stats, would be an interesting mechanic. Of course, having Abi on caves and Wendy on surface (and wanting to change the sister you are playing) would probably create server and code issues, but it can be fixed with forcing the player to bring both Wendy and Abigail to caves or surface. Instead of revivable, Abigail could be alive at the start of the game (would be better I think). If 1 sister dies, she becomes a ghost that you can control and revive with a telltale heart (giving the item a better use).

WX-78. They require a bit of a nerf.

Spoiler
  1. Make the rain and wetness an actual problem for them (nerf). Being wet above 50 percent should start to take away health as if in hunger, add an item that lets you dry faster if need be (a towel made from silk and cut reeds).
  2. Reduce Maximum health from 400 to 300 (nerf). Even with that amount you are practically immortal when you take armor in consideration.
  3. Let them eat electrical doodads to simulate a lightning strike, but make it last half as long (buff). Would give this things an interesting use. I am pretty sure there is a mod for this one though, but I am not sure.

Wickerbottom. Oh boy...

Spoiler
  1. Reduce her health from 150 to 100 (nerf). This encourages the use of her books and to find other ways to kill enemies than brute force. Also makes her less useful than other characters for direct combat without making combats last longer (like reducing her damage would do). We all know she is already too good in general.
  2. Books should not be read if the reader does not have the sanity for it (books nerf). Yes, this applies to Maxwell too. This should work like Wes' pile o' balloons
  3. Make her books more expensive (books nerf). All books should cost as base 4 papyrus (instead of 2), and a quill (she has to write them with something), and then the other ingredients (So, Sleepytime Stories would cost: 4 papyrus, 1 quill, and 2 nightmare fuel instead of 2 papyrus, and 2 nightmare fuel). Applied Horticulture though should cost 4 manure instead of 1 manure and 1 seed, so it's crafting cost would be: 4 papyrus, 1 quill, and 4 manure, instead of 2 papyrus, 1 manure, and 1 seed.

Woodie. He is a fun character for sure, but is also a bit frustrating to play as you have little control over most of his mechanics. So yeah, that is what I want to see "corrected", I guess. This is going to be messy to read...

Spoiler
  1. Buff werebeaver overall (buff... duh). More specifically, increase it's damage from an axe (27) to a spear (34), increase it's damage resistance from 25% to that of a grass suit (60%). This way it is not utterly useless for combat in case you got to fight, but you still much prefer Woodie over werebeaver as you can get more damage resistance from log suit (the most basic armor after grass suit), and better damage from many other weapons. Also, reduce the werebeaver insanity reduction from -90 sanity/min to -20 sanity/min when above 5% beaverness and below 25%; but if you are below 5% beaverness you take the full -90 sanity/min; also, you should no longer take damage from 0% beaverness, but you can still starve (your hunger meter does not go away is what I mean). And finally, but most importantly: do not drop equip slots gear; just make them unusable, but not dropped on the ground!
  2. The cat cap should make Woodie stay as Woodie even if werebeaver conditions are met (buff for both Woodie and the cat cap). So, if I have the cat cap equipped, it doesn't matter if it is a full moon, or if my beaver meter is at 0: I stay as Woodie, of course, the negative effects should still happen (insanity effect from the moon, or from having beaverness below 25% will take place). Of course, once it breaks, or you unequip it, if you fulfill the conditions to become werebeaver (full moon, or below 25% beaverness), you will become werebeaver immediately. Would truly make fighting Deerclops much less of a hassle... Why the cat cap though? Simple, I don't like to suggest vague items (if I can), and the cat cap is one of those very redundant items in general that nobody uses because of it's very limited functionality as it is out-classed by beefalo hat and (not to mention it's high cost)
  3. Make cut grass lower your beaverness by 20 on consumption instead of increasing it by 1 (buff?). Kind of useless, but if for whatever reason you want to become werebeaver and there are no trees close by (or you don't want to chop trees), you can just chomp 4 cut grass and you are good to go (considering you are at 100% beaverness, you might need less). Why cut grass? Well... because Woodie is allergic to it? I dunno, I just want to avoid adding too many random items for a single character.

Wes. He is supposed to be the challenge character, and that makes sense in Don't Starve, but not so much in Don't Starve Together. Ideally he should be a bit more of a teamplayer, while still being a difficult character to play as (to try to keep the essence of "challenge character"). I gotta say, I have only played Wes a couple times, but considering he is even more vanilla than Wilson (plus having worse stats, and not actively telling you when a giant/hound wave is coming), he doesn't need that much learning on his mechanics.

Spoiler
  1. Make his hunger rate like a regular character instead of 25% faster (buff). Minor buff to even the playing field a bit.
  2. His balloons should have a positive sanity aura of +1 sanity/min per balloon on a 1 tile radius (indirect buff). Would make possible to make sanity chambers if need be (plus would discourage picking up flowers for flower garlands).
  3. He should be 10% faster (buff). Because why not? With all of this he should still be a bad character choice in general (low health and hunger at 113, low sanity than average at 150, does less damage than average, no true special abilities that gives himself any true advantage at all, and still won't tell you if a giant is coming), but should at least make him an slightly interesting teamplayer that even if played by a pro would drag the team down overall.

Maxwell. I can think of a few changes, but overall I don't think he really needs any changes.

Spoiler
  1. Increase health from 75 to 100 (buff). He would still have the lowest health, but wouldn't be THAT frail. Subsequently, his minions should have 100 health too.
  2. Make minions "cheaper" by requiring more nightmare fuel, but no tools, still the same sanity cost though (buff, I think). Is kind of annoying to have to go and craft 3 axes and then make 3 shadow logger. Is not really needed at all since axes and spears are pretty cheap to make, but I would gladly pay 4 nightmare fuel instead of crafting those tools.
  3. Give shadow duelists 40% damage resistance or the same damage resistance Maxwell has at the moment (buff). They are even more frail than Maxwell as they cannot wear armor. No other shadow minion should receive the damage resistance.
  4. Add a ranged minion with almost the same cost as the shadow duelist (instead of a spear they cost a telelocator/purple staff, this in case my 2nd suggestion is not taken in account), call it shadow mage (buff, kinda). They do less damage than a shadow duelist (20 instead of 40), but they attack from a much safer distance, making them far more durable.

Wigfrid. In general I think she is fine. I would like to add something from the Forge though, plus a little something to make her gear more useful in late game.

Spoiler
  1. Add the Forge mechanic of war cry (buff). In the Forge, every so many hits she would let out a war cry that increased her damage and of those around her by a little amount for only one hit (I think it was +10 or something like that). So, every 10/15 attacks she will do 1 attack that is increased in damage and teammates will also do an attack that is increased in damage if they are within range.
  2. Make her helmet protect by 60% instead of 80% but increase 10% speed (buff, re-work). Would differentiate it from the football helmet and shelmet, plus would make it an amazing kiting gear (it also has wings, which makes it pretty aerodynamic, so it makes sense /s).

Webber. He is almost fine:

Spoiler
  1. Add the shamlet from Hamlet to DST and make it work on regular pigmen and bunnymen in case it doesn't (buff). That way he can build pig/bunny farms with less problems, hire pig/bunnymen, plus he can interact with other characters without being pestered for being a monster.
  2. Make the spiderhat an armor instead of a "hat", should give 50% damage resistance and keep the -2 sanity/min (indirect buff). The spiderhat should be to the other characters as the shamlet is to Webber: a disguise. Keeping it's damage resistance low discourages from using it as an actual armor, and being an armor makes it last nearly indefinitely instead of a measly 2 minutes.

Winona. So much potential. So much disappointment... Gotta say, most of what I will suggest is already on the mod Trusty Winona (cool mod).

Spoiler
  1. Her trusty tape should repair armor by 150 durability/health instead of repair clothing (re-work). The sewing kit already does what the trusty tape does, so it's functionality is meaningless. But if instead if repaired armor, it would be something unique. The 150 healing comes from the mod though, and I think the reason given is good enough (is enough to fully repair a grass suit, but recovers just a little over 1/3rd of a log armor's health).
  2. Make her do a couple more actions/animations faster like picking grass and saplings, chopping, mining, dig stuff, etc. (buff). Since she was an industrial worker, and she is so obsessed with efficiency, it just makes sense to have her do many stuff faster than usual.
  3. Her hunger rate should be 25% faster than regular (nerf). Being so hyper-efficient, and being an industrial worker she must have quite the appetite (she needs her protein!). The number is also equal to the one recommended by the mod because why not.
  4. Give her insanity from being near fires equal to Willow's sanity (nerf). Since she is so afraid of fires, it just makes sense. It would make managing sanity a bit harder as you will be losing lots of sanity even with a light nearby (this includes the fire star from the star caller's staff). Even better if it can include torch, lighter, and even give a sanity penalty for directly starting a fire (while getting a sanity boost for putting out a fire).
  5. I would have added to remove her resistance to Charlie, but honestly it isn't that bad or great, so (eh).

Thanks for reading.

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Shosuko    2653

 

2 hours ago, pedregales said:

Wolfgang. Another one that is fine (although I don't enjoy him much). Of course, he could use a little re-work that is kind of a nerf.

  Hide contents
  1. Make his Mighty Form 10% slower than a regular character, and give him 20% damage resistance while in this form (nerf and re-work). This way he is not the "duper monster kiter" that can almost literally solo every giant with very little preparation (Bee Queen and Ancient Fuelweaver are pretty much the only ones that give him trouble for solo fighting, also Evil Toadstool, but that one has 100K health, so...), but a very different playstyle of tanking enemies on mighty (this also encourages to be mighty only against giants). Of course, it would also be necessary to make him immune to attacks that force players to drop weapons (like Bearger's slap and earthquake attacks, or G/Goose's honk), otherwise those enemies would just be annoying to fight as Wolfgang.
  2. Make his Wimpy Form 10% faster than a regular character (buff). To counter the lack of speed buff. Would make changing between forms a bit more interesting: Wimpy for scouting, Regular for monster fighting, and Mighty for fighting some giants.

Wigfrid. In general I think she is fine. I would like to add something from the Forge though, plus a little something to make her gear more useful in late game.

  Hide contents
  1. Add the Forge mechanic of war cry (buff). In the Forge, every so many hits she would let out a war cry that increased her damage and of those around her by a little amount for only one hit (I think it was +10 or something like that). So, every 10/15 attacks she will do 1 attack that is increased in damage and teammates will also do an attack that is increased in damage if they are within range.
  2. Make her helmet protect by 60% instead of 80% but increase 10% speed (buff, re-work). Would differentiate it from the football helmet and shelmet, plus would make it an amazing kiting gear (it also has wings, which makes it pretty aerodynamic, so it makes sense /s).

 

I really like these two suggestions.  They differentiate the two combat characters presenting a meaningful choice between them to the player.  Do you want to deal highest damage and trade, or do you want to kite?

I like the idea of giving Wolfgang an iron grip in strongman so that he won't drop items.  With the movement reduction you might also give him hit-stun immunity from non-giant mobs so that he can tank multiple hounds without getting stun locked - since he can't run away as well.

Wigfrid probably wouldn't need her health / sanity leech if she is kiting though...  so it might need a bit more than what you've said here to flesh it out, but I like where you're going.

 

Quote

Wes. He is supposed to be the challenge character, and that makes sense in Don't Starve, but not so much in Don't Starve Together. Ideally he should be a bit more of a teamplayer, while still being a difficult character to play as (to try to keep the essence of "challenge character"). I gotta say, I have only played Wes a couple times, but considering he is even more vanilla than Wilson (plus having worse stats, and not actively telling you when a giant/hound wave is coming), he doesn't need that much learning on his mechanics.

  Hide contents
  1. Make his hunger rate like a regular character instead of 25% faster (buff). Minor buff to even the playing field a bit.
  2. His balloons should have a positive sanity aura of +1 sanity/min per balloon on a 1 tile radius (indirect buff). Would make possible to make sanity chambers if need be (plus would discourage picking up flowers for flower garlands).
  3. He should be 10% faster (buff). Because why not? With all of this he should still be a bad character choice in general (low health and hunger at 113, low sanity than average at 150, does less damage than average, no true special abilities that gives himself any true advantage at all, and still won't tell you if a giant is coming), but should at least make him an slightly interesting teamplayer that even if played by a pro would drag the team down overall.

I've played Wes a lot, and have said before that I feel the problem with a challenge character in DST is that you are just a leech on your team.  The challenge aspects of Wes should be reworked so that he can still be helpful to his team while being a challenge to the player.

In single player the hunger and damage nerfs worked well.  In multiplayer this just means you drain everyone's fridge, and don't add much damage in fights.  If these are re-tooled we can gain much of the same effect for the player without effecting the team as much.  Instead of the hunger penalty make his sanity / health gains from food recovered over time rather than immediately.  Then switch his damage-dealt nerf to a damage-received nerf.  This way he doesn't empty out the fridge, and adds the same damage as anyone else when he helps in combat, but the player is challenged to manage food better, and take minimal damage in fights.

Next change up his balloons.  These are pretty bland imo.  They are great for draining his sanity when you want to farm nightmare fuel, but the rest of their mechanics are a bit superfluous.  Meaningless mechanics are a waste...  I'd like to see the balloons turned into a crafting station similar to Maxwell's book.  Let him craft balloon armor, weapons, and tools.  Give the crafting station durability in addition to the sanity requirement, but otherwise no other items are needed.  Make the armor a 90% damage reduction for 1 hit.  Give the weapons normal spear damage.  The balloons will all be 1 use items but let weapons and tool stack similar to blow darts, enough to really use them but not enough to compare to the durability of actually crafting something.  This would let Wes do some fun things especially when resources run low, but I don't think these would take over any other parts of the game like Wigfrid's battle helms can.

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Finx    88

The Wolfgang idea sounds bland to me. Wolfgang already have a pseudo damage reduction with how his hp work and this would make him and Wigfrid even more similar when its the opposite that most people want me included. It make sense for Wolfgang to have a speed boost because his mighty is a healthy form not a guy full of fat form and muscular people tend to be good at sprinting anyway. Also the only boss that can only be kited with the mighty speed boost is enraged klaus which isn't even the intented way to fight him so the speed boost is not a neccesity to fight bosses.

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Shosuko    2653
34 minutes ago, Finx said:

The Wolfgang idea sounds bland to me. Wolfgang already have a pseudo damage reduction with how his hp work and this would make him and Wigfrid even more similar when its the opposite that most people want me included. It make sense for Wolfgang to have a speed boost because his mighty is a healthy form not a guy full of fat form and muscular people tend to be good at sprinting anyway. Also the only boss that can only be kited with the mighty speed boost is enraged klaus which isn't even the intented way to fight him so the speed boost is not a neccesity to fight bosses.

idk - big guys aren't usually fast.  Fast comes from being trim.  Watch some featherweight and heavyweight boxing and tell me what you think.  Wigfrid would likely need more of a re-work than what he lists here since her health / sanity leech goes against this design.  Its not perfect but it does provide a better distinction between these two combat characters.

I think this begs the question - which would you rather rework into the kiting fighter / tanking fighter?  Or is there a different combat dynamic you would use to differentiate them?

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Viktor234    5421
49 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I've played Wes a lot, and have said before that I feel the problem with a challenge character in DST is that you are just a leech on your team.  The challenge aspects of Wes should be reworked so that he can still be helpful to his team while being a challenge to the player.

Maybe just remove the 25% faster Hunger drain and the 25% less damage penalty and increase his taken damage from any source by 25% instead? Or maybe increase the penalty of any source (Sanity/Health drain by Insanity aura, Dark Sword, stale or bad Food, etc.) by 25% (Hunger could be unaffected because there's always some food brought by other players in the base). That way he won't be the 2nd Wendy and teammates won't say that's he's useless because he's weaker than normal & eats all the food, but mistakes will be punished harder. Aggressive enemies shouldn't be able to distinguish Wes and his balloons so in case of a hound attack, hounds should focus his balloons aswell, unless they get attacked directly.

But his Primary Way Too Overpowered Special Power could be his global attraction aura: Boss Monsters like Deerclops, Goose/Goose, Antlion, Bearger always prefer it to choose Wes as their target. You won't need to look for a worthy opponent to show other players that you're a real Hardcore-Player.

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BOT Tuja    31

I have never played Wes, simply because he isn't interesting enough, not even in the downsides.
If they want him to only have downsides, then they should at least make those downsides FUN.
But I've come up with an upside that fits the character, and could be useful:

Mime tools.

You know how in Shipwrecked, Wes doesn't use an oar, and instead uses his pro mime skills to row his boat.
He should be able to do this with most of the tools, at the cost of 1 to 5 sanity.
1 for miming an axe.
1 for miming a pickaxe.
5 for miming a shovel.
3 for miming a razor.
2 for miming a pitchfork.
2 for miming a hammer.

Imagine this:
I'm playing as Wes, exploring the world. I come across a Touchstone, with the Pig heads around it, but I've left my hammer at the base.
By miming a hammer, I could get 8 pigs skins at the cost of 24 sanity.

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Viktor234    5421
1 hour ago, BOT Tuja said:

Mime tools.

You know how in Shipwrecked, Wes doesn't use an oar, and instead uses his pro mime skills to row his boat.
He should be able to do this with most of the tools, at the cost of 1 to 5 sanity.
1 for miming an axe.
1 for miming a pickaxe.
5 for miming a shovel.
3 for miming a razor.
2 for miming a pitchfork.
2 for miming a hammer.

That might be a bit too OP: Starts with every tool at the beginning without any science & has no need to get any tools during ruins exploring.

Doesn't fit a hardcore character, also Winona should be the character who always has her tools ready to use.

The fact that Wes doesn't use an oar is more like a joke because he can't talk (hardcore) & uses miming.

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Finx    88
6 hours ago, Shosuko said:

idk - big guys aren't usually fast.  Fast comes from being trim.  Watch some featherweight and heavyweight boxing and tell me what you think.  Wigfrid would likely need more of a re-work than what he lists here since her health / sanity leech goes against this design.  Its not perfect but it does provide a better distinction between these two combat characters.

I think this begs the question - which would you rather rework into the kiting fighter / tanking fighter?  Or is there a different combat dynamic you would use to differentiate them?

If you watch 100m sprint you will notice how the runner are very muscular not lightweight. In these fast but intense race muscle is synonym of speed thats why you have runner like Usain Bolt weighting 200ish pounds. Even if Wolfgang is a bodybuilder and not a sprinter he remains a big chunk of muscle so you would expect him to be able to sprint faster due to his muscle power.

My issue with the distinction between Wolfgang and Wigfrid isn't that one is better at kiting and the other at tanking but rather that both are pure "physical" damage dealer which makes them too similar. Personally I feel that between these character Wigfrid is the one that could use a re-work. Some player see Wigfrid as the support fighter but except being able to craft battle spear and helm when it comes to actual combat she ends up swinging her spear like Wolfgang do.

An idea that I have but it would probably be op or garbage is that since Wigfrid is a Valkyrie/Viking during battle she could do a warcry that could buff damage dealt and damage resistance of other player nearby or she could taunt nearby creature to aggro her instead of her teammate. These "perk" could be activated by using an item exclusive to her like a battle horn or something like that.

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Shosuko    2653
3 hours ago, Finx said:

If you watch 100m sprint you will notice how the runner are very muscular not lightweight. In these fast but intense race muscle is synonym of speed thats why you have runner like Usain Bolt weighting 200ish pounds. Even if Wolfgang is a bodybuilder and not a sprinter he remains a big chunk of muscle so you would expect him to be able to sprint faster due to his muscle power.

My issue with the distinction between Wolfgang and Wigfrid isn't that one is better at kiting and the other at tanking but rather that both are pure "physical" damage dealer which makes them too similar. Personally I feel that between these character Wigfrid is the one that could use a re-work. Some player see Wigfrid as the support fighter but except being able to craft battle spear and helm when it comes to actual combat she ends up swinging her spear like Wolfgang do.

An idea that I have but it would probably be op or garbage is that since Wigfrid is a Valkyrie/Viking during battle she could do a warcry that could buff damage dealt and damage resistance of other player nearby or she could taunt nearby creature to aggro her instead of her teammate. These "perk" could be activated by using an item exclusive to her like a battle horn or something like that.

idk compare these two groups of people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkYzA5sLLcU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fECrrq9YTeA

I think the difference is noticeable.  There is no doubt that fast people are fit and muscular, but not the mountains of muscles you see in the strong man.  Strong man competitors are not particularly fast, and weigh over 300 lbs.  I see Wolfgang as the strong man type, not the trim athletic type.  I would see Wigfrid as the trim athletic type though.

Anyway - that said, I think your idea to differentiate them between a solo artist vs a team player is an idea that has merit.  I would enjoy looking that way as well but being a solo player it means I'd still never play Wigfrid lol.  Regardless of that, I do think Wolfgang needs to lose his speed boost.  Its the part of his kit that never made sense to me.  Without that he breaks the game a little less.

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Finx    88
51 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk compare these two groups of people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkYzA5sLLcU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fECrrq9YTeA

I think the difference is noticeable.  There is no doubt that fast people are fit and muscular, but not the mountains of muscles you see in the strong man.  Strong man competitors are not particularly fast, and weigh over 300 lbs.  I see Wolfgang as the strong man type, not the trim athletic type.  I would see Wigfrid as the trim athletic type though.

Anyway - that said, I think your idea to differentiate them between a solo artist vs a team player is an idea that has merit.  I would enjoy looking that way as well but being a solo player it means I'd still never play Wigfrid lol.  Regardless of that, I do think Wolfgang needs to lose his speed boost.  Its the part of his kit that never made sense to me.  Without that he breaks the game a little less.

I won't hide that Wolfgang is my main. So if I had to choose his current build vs your "heavy" Wolfgang I would hands down pick the current one.

I would always prefer to have a speed boost ever a damage resistance simply because if you kite the damage resistance is useless, also speed boost allow you to do more stuff in a set amount of time and if you ask me time is the most precious ressource in Don't Starve.

But your idea come with an interesting dilemma would I prefer to have the speed boost when mighty or wimpy? In my subjective opinion when mighty for 2 main reasons

1 - by having it when wimpy sure you are faster for exploring but you lose it when you would go mighty to fight and become bulky to tank everything. I always hated playing Wigfrid because her playstyle favor too much tanking which I find lame since it require no skill and anyone can do it.

2 - granting such a nice perk when wimpy I see it as "we will reward you for playing poorly" which I feel is counter intuitive since in my opinion Wolfgang gameplay and more specificly his hunger management is what makes it interesting since the better you are at the game the mightier he will be. In other word the mighty player should be rewarded when playing him not the wimpy one.

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maradyne    4988

Wigfrid feels ok focus-wise. Rather, out of the two, she's the one with a focus.
The way that Wigfrid alters combat and crafting makes her a good nomad. Solo explorer who can scout out the world, delve deep into the ruins and whack the Guardian, ect without any preparation or assistance. That speed idea would be nice and fitting with her current abilities, but I wouldn't say that she needs it.
...basically, if Wigfrid is focused around one core concept, it's Koalaphants; hunting and tracking things around the world, and besting them.

In a similar way, Wendy alters combat to power-farm weak enemies for their resources. Spider Fortresses are infinite meat. I don't see it done often by players that aren't me, but she can get like a stack per day or more of Honey free just by dragging Abi around through the Killer Bee Biome.
Klei needs to make those  A C T U A L  T H O U S A N D S  of stingers on the ground automatically despawn after reaching 40 outside of containers. I lag servers.

Maxwell makes it so that you don't have to deal with some easy though potentially tedious things; basic resources and sanity can be automatically upkept. Shadow Gatherer and Picker when?

Golfwang could use a focus of some sort, like those.

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Finx    88
1 hour ago, lifetheuniverse said:

Wigfrid feels ok focus-wise. Rather, out of the two, she's the one with a focus.
The way that Wigfrid alters combat and crafting makes her a good nomad. Solo explorer who can scout out the world, delve deep into the ruins and whack the Guardian, ect without any preparation or assistance. That speed idea would be nice and fitting with her current abilities, but I wouldn't say that she needs it.
...basically, if Wigfrid is focused around one core concept, it's Koalaphants; hunting and tracking things around the world, and besting them.

In a similar way, Wendy alters combat to power-farm weak enemies for their resources. Spider Fortresses are infinite meat. I don't see it done often by players that aren't me, but she can get like a stack per day or more of Honey free just by dragging Abi around through the Killer Bee Biome.
Klei needs to make those  A C T U A L  T H O U S A N D S  of stingers on the ground automatically despawn after reaching 40 outside of containers. I lag servers.

Maxwell makes it so that you don't have to deal with some easy though potentially tedious things; basic resources and sanity can be automatically upkept. Shadow Gatherer and Picker when?

Golfwang could use a focus of some sort, like those.

When you say focus do you mean like a role? If so Wolfgang focus is pretty clear its destroying bosses.

Honnestly when it comes to bosses no other character can do what he do as fast.

He can kill dragonfly early to make a scale furnace which will save logs by constantly keeping those thermal stone hot in winter. If you want to solo dragonfly with any other character they require much more ressource to do so.

Or you want the bundle wrap blueprint early? Well go kill bee queen for it. In this case its true that Wickerbottom can do it too and rather safely but im pretty sure Wolfgang is faster to do it since it takes him much less time gathering what he needs for the fight compare to Wickerbottom.

Want to rush the ruins to get the nice loot from it? With WX78 he is pretty much the other one suited to do that.

Want a krampus sack? In winter go solo klaus in like 3 minutes to get a 10% of getting one.

Sadly from my experience most Wolfgang player aren't even capable of gathering berries so dont expect them to do what I previously said. With that said im ironically not suprised with what you said.

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Shosuko    2653
4 hours ago, Finx said:

I won't hide that Wolfgang is my main. So if I had to choose his current build vs your "heavy" Wolfgang I would hands down pick the current one.

I would always prefer to have a speed boost ever a damage resistance simply because if you kite the damage resistance is useless, also speed boost allow you to do more stuff in a set amount of time and if you ask me time is the most precious ressource in Don't Starve.

But your idea come with an interesting dilemma would I prefer to have the speed boost when mighty or wimpy? In my subjective opinion when mighty for 2 main reasons

1 - by having it when wimpy sure you are faster for exploring but you lose it when you would go mighty to fight and become bulky to tank everything. I always hated playing Wigfrid because her playstyle favor too much tanking which I find lame since it require no skill and anyone can do it.

2 - granting such a nice perk when wimpy I see it as "we will reward you for playing poorly" which I feel is counter intuitive since in my opinion Wolfgang gameplay and more specificly his hunger management is what makes it interesting since the better you are at the game the mightier he will be. In other word the mighty player should be rewarded when playing him not the wimpy one.

I'm not saying this to attack you in any way, but don't you think the fact that speed really is a powerful element of this game, and that Wolfgang gets easy access to speed in addition to high damage multipliers gives him much more than any other character in the game?  You state yourself that the speed doesn't only help him fight things on a level above any other character, but also helps him explore quicker and get more things done.

Wolfgang and Wickerbottom are hands down the most OP characters in the game.  I think any re-work of these characters must start from the assumption that their overall power levels need to come down.  They need meaningful tradeoffs for the great power they come with.  The food consumption and loss of sanity for Wolfgang is not nearly enough to counter balance the damage and speed buffs he gets.  I actually avoid any tactics videos using Wolfgang because he can do things on a level that no other character can, and basing your tactics around having access to that level of power is much less about player ability and much more about "Things Wolfgang Does."

As such - considering the things to change about Wolfgang's kit - I feel removing the speed boost completely is the most obvious choice.  Its extremely unbalanced compared to the access to speed that anyone else can get which is valuable at all levels of the game, both in exploring, surviving, and boss defeating.  Without his speed he can still best bosses quicker and easier than anyone else.  He just loses his ability to also explore the map, run tasks across the map, and ez-kite.

None of this does anything to give Wigfrid a place in the game.  I would consider the idea that she is more of a team player, except that a power that is useless when you're solo... is a pretty useless power...  I don't play Wigfrid much but I can sympathize with those who want to play her and feel like any task they set themselves to with her is better done with Wolfgang.

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maradyne    4988
10 hours ago, Finx said:

Sadly from my experience most Wolfgang player aren't even capable of gathering berries so dont expect them to do what I previously said. With that said im ironically not suprised with what you said.


I'm not saying Wolfgang is weak at all. I've been playing DS since sometime well before the original game had caves; I'm familiar enough to know how strong Wolfgang is when played by someone good at the game, from personal usage.

Quite the opposite. In implying that Wolfgang doesn't have a focus like other characters, I meant that his focus is too broad.
In mighty form, he gets health and a size increase, making him seem like a tank...
But also a huge damage amp, making him the DPS character.
And then a speed stat for unmatched kiting, faster world exploration, and generally faster anything. Movement speed increases in this game are really strong.

He's unfocused because he has too many strengths, and each of those individual strengths are pretty strong. You could completely take away any of the 3 mentioned traits, and he'd still be above-average among the characters regardless of his 'downsides'. Heck, he could just have the damage amp and he'd still be ridiculously strong.

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Finx    88

Don't worry im glad that we can talk about controversial topic without the topic turning into an insult festival. 

Anyway I listed the main point that both of you stated before which are : Wolfgang speed boost, Wolfgang can do thing that no other character can, Wolfgang is overpower and Wigfrid is useless because of Wolfgang.

Wolfgang speed boost : Any character can emulate his speed boost by using a walking cane, lazy explorer, magiluminescense without having to deal with an extra hunger drain. When it comes to speed the character that actually shine the most is WX78 with a 50% bonus to speed.

Wolfgang can do thing that no other character can do : I wonder where that statement come from but its simple false. People usually say that because of the dragonfly solo fight. You can solo dragonfly with Wes without walls. In other words, anything Wolfgang can do anyone can do it. You just need more ressource, more prep time and longer fight.

Wolfgang is overpower : prepare youself for a brick wall sorry.

Normal form his stat are fix, 200 max hp (same as Wigfrid), no damage boost, no speed boost, hunger drain is 1,5x faster.

Wimpy form his stat are scaling with his hunger, max hp goes from 200 to 150, damage goes from 0,75x to 0,5x (worst than Wes), movement speed goes from 1x to 0,9x (making him the slowest when wimpy), hunger drain goes from 1,5x to 1x.

Mighty form his stat are scaling with his hunger, max hp goes from 200 to 300 (second highest after WX78), damage goes from 1,25x to 2x, movement speed goes from 1x to 1,25x (second highest after WX78), hunger drain goes from 1,5x to 3x.

When you look at this Wolfgang is only powerful when in mighty form we already knew that. But in Wimpy form he's the worst fighter in the game with pathetic damage output and on top of that if you play wimpy when not fighting your hunger drain is still higher than other character plus with a that silly speed modifier Wolfgang will consume more time and ressources to do non fighting stuff making one of the worst in that state. In normal form he's basically Wilson with more hp and higher hunger drain.

Well if that leave him still overpowered for you lets talk more deeply about mighty form. In this form his max potential are 300 hp, 1,25x speed and of course 2x damage but in reality with a hunger drain of 3x these perk fade off very quickly. As soon as your hunger reach around 260-265 your speed boost become irrelevant you dont feel it at this point, you will never truly be doing 2x damage more about 1,9x damage at best if you maintain your hunger high with food during fight and his hp will more likely be around 280ish which when you think about it is about what Wigfrid effective hp is because of her damage resistance.

Finally about him being overpowered, one of my criteria for something to be call overpowered in a game is that it must be able to carry a beginner which Wolfgang fail miserably. Alot of new player prefer Wigfrid because its easier to gather meat than alot of food. Plus her helm and spear allow new player to not even bother making an alchemy engine to make weapon and armor.

Wigfrid is useless because of Wolfgang : I see this the same way as Woodie and Maxwell. Its Woodie who need a buff/rework not Maxwell. So I think that you of the two Wigfrid need to be rework so that she is appealing to veteran player not nerfing Wolfgang. In game design, most of the time buff are more desirable than nerf. The discussion started with his speed boost but if he had to take a nerf I would prefer it being an increase of sanity loss or something link to his fear of the dark.

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pedregales    493
On 12/29/2018 at 5:26 PM, BOT Tuja said:

I have never played Wes, simply because he isn't interesting enough, not even in the downsides.
If they want him to only have downsides, then they should at least make those downsides FUN.
But I've come up with an upside that fits the character, and could be useful:

Mime tools.

You know how in Shipwrecked, Wes doesn't use an oar, and instead uses his pro mime skills to row his boat.
He should be able to do this with most of the tools, at the cost of 1 to 5 sanity.
1 for miming an axe.
1 for miming a pickaxe.
5 for miming a shovel.
3 for miming a razor.
2 for miming a pitchfork.
2 for miming a hammer.

Imagine this:
I'm playing as Wes, exploring the world. I come across a Touchstone, with the Pig heads around it, but I've left my hammer at the base.
By miming a hammer, I could get 8 pigs skins at the cost of 24 sanity.

I kinda like this idea, even though it deviates so much from the essence of the "challenge character"...

And this could work like Maxwell's puppet minions: he can build mimetic tools for a pseudo-permanent piece of his sanity. Say every tool costs him 30% of his sanity and they have as much durability as a regular tool but they also only last for 8 minutes (a full in-game day, after which they are "naturally" destroyed or dissipated), once the tool breaks or dissipates, Wes gets his sanity back. This way you can't just mimetize any tool any time, but you can mimetize up to 3 tools.

This could also be applied to mimetize a weapon and an armor. The weapon could have the same base damage as the dark sword (but taking in account Wes' damage multiplier, it will do less damage than that) and have the durability of a regular spear, with the condition that if Wes sanity is below 10%, the weapon has spear's base damage instead of dark sword. And the armor could protect as much as a regular marble suit (95%) and have the same health (735 hp), but only if Wes has more than 10% of his current sanity, otherwise it protects only by 40% (keeps the same health though). They both would dissipate after 8 minutes like a regular mimetic tool.

This would obviously make Wes better than most characters though, so it is "counter-intuitive" to an extent as cool as it sounds :/.

---

As for the Wolfgang debate.

Well, we can all agree Wolfgang is an over-achiever. Usually when it comes to tiering DS and DST characters he is the 3rd best character (sometimes 2nd) just after Wicker and WX. Personally, I think he fills his role well; the problem is he does so exceedingly well, to the point where he can do other roles with no problem... only Wigfrid can tank more than him (and even that is debatable), only WX can kite as well as him (and this only if he has been struck by lightning), he is among the best nightmare fuel farmers (specially considering he can drop his sanity faster than most characters, so a faster sanity drain is actually a buff as he will be able to farm nightmare fuel with more ease), he is great for scouting and spelunking (managing hunger is not that much of an issue, specially when you can 1 to 3-shot most enemies for good food, and meatballs are such an easy to make food source). All of this with the only downside that you have to "eat". That is all the "extra" preparation he needs: food. The fact that he can solo almost all bosses with so little preparation speaks for how OP the character is, and needs at least a small nerf (along with Wicker and WX).

Wicker has almost the same issue as she is not only a resourceful support character, but she also is a great giant-killer, a great nightmare farmer, and has powerful CC in sleepytime stories. But even she needs a lot of preparation to do most of that stuff, and getting the reeds for her books can be complicated (specially if someone burns them >.>).

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GenomeSquirrel    1078
3 hours ago, Finx said:

Finally about him being overpowered, one of my criteria for something to be call overpowered in a game is that it must be able to carry a beginner which Wolfgang fail miserably.

Character balance should never be thought of in terms of beginners, for beginners all characters are effectively the same, while for experienced players there’s a sizable portion of the cast that excel at nothing.

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maradyne    4988
2 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Character balance should never be thought of in terms of beginners, for beginners all characters are effectively the same, while for experienced players there’s a sizable portion of the cast that excel at nothing.

This. If anything, maybe Klei should reimplement some form of the XP-based character unlocking system (in a new order), for new players to pace out the level of difficulty in characters they try.

3 hours ago, pedregales said:

Personally, I think he fills his role well; the problem is he does so exceedingly well, to the point where he can do other roles with no problem..

In a nutshell.
Functionally, he's a generalist...and generalists typically have some sort of trade-off. For instance, Wilson and Winona are both really neutral in their stats; but both only have slight, almost unnoticeable upsides. Winona shouldn't be a generalist, we already have Wilson for that; I'm just using her as an extra example.
Generalists are basically supposed to be the balancing point, from which you slide scales up and down in tandem until you reach a point that feels right for another character's archetype, and go from there, adding specific abilities and nerfing/buffing those abilities and stats appropriately. But whereas one character's perks might trivialize one particular part of the game...Wolfgang trivializes most of it.

Some other characters in the game mesh really well together in a team, each doing one thing really well.
Wilson, the original generalist, does most things 'ok'.
Wolfgang is a one-man team that does most things really well.

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Shosuko    2653
2 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Character balance should never be thought of in terms of beginners, for beginners all characters are effectively the same, while for experienced players there’s a sizable portion of the cast that excel at nothing.

This is true - and I also don't think we should think about balance as "everyone being equal."  The point isn't equality.  There will be some characters that are more useful and others more niche.  The point is to make there be a point to picking every character.  I don't mind Wolfgang being super strong for combat except I feel like it crowds out other choices.  If there is no point in the game where you can say "I do this well because I picked this character" then they don't really work...

Although I'd like Wes to stay as the blank slate.  Its good to have a choice of "no power" in a game like Don't Starve.  In this way the thing you are doing as Wes is absolutely nothing special.  Everything is exactly as any other character could do it.

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Finx    88
2 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Character balance should never be thought of in terms of beginners, for beginners all characters are effectively the same, while for experienced players there’s a sizable portion of the cast that excel at nothing.

In any fighting games or first person shooter, etc. for a hot topic like rebalance you must take in consideration all of the player base of your game not only a 1% of elitist.

4 hours ago, pedregales said:

he is among the best nightmare fuel farmers (specially considering he can drop his sanity faster than most characters, so a faster sanity drain is actually a buff as he will be able to farm nightmare fuel with more ease)

Here the issue isn't Wolfgang, its an obselete gameplay mechanic know as sanity that when depleted is more of a benediction than a threat. The reason why the non "top tier" character aren't as good as the three always brought to court is because their perk favor either mechanic that are more bad for you like fire for Willow or made obselete by something else like bearger who turn Maxwell and Woodie into living meme compare to it.

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