Query about aquatuners(along with some steam turbineMaths)

[Iriswaters]

 I've been playing in the sandbox mode a bit, trying to see if some builds work.  And I've been playing around with the aquatuner.  And I'm wondering if anyone knows the exact numbers on the heat generated.  Not the cooling, I know that is 14'C regardless of material, meaning extremely widely varied joules/sec of heat(DTU/s, if you will).  The higher the specific heat, the more the decrease.

But I'm wondering if anyone knows the other side of the equation.  The increase.  Is it an amount exactly equal to the total DTUs removed?  Or is it that the machine is just given a 14'C boost, so it depends on the material it's made of?  Or is it the contents of a square increased 14'C?

 

I am trying to jimmy with things, and the difference matters given that I'd like to create as much heat as possible in this instance.  I've worked out how to do a steam turbine that only costs 960W to run full time.  Haven't tried door exploits yet, but apparently if you block 4 inputs, you can run it off 4 gas pumps. 

 

I ran a test, and it seems to destroy somewhere around 2,000-2400 kJ/s in heat energy.  This is not exact, I tried to measure from a set starting temperature and running for a day, and then calculating the total temperature loss, but running it twice with the same exact quantity but slightly different starting temperatures resulted in a difference of 60 vs 75C.

I'm curious what the maximum temperature that can be created by an aquatuner is.  Just the amount added, with the amount lost disregarded(there are no shortage of things we want to cool, after all).  I'm interested to find out how many are needed to keep a steam engine running. Obviously more than one, at best they get rid of 840kJ/s, so if that is a pure transfer, it'd be 3?  Maybe?

 

Idk, anyone else play with this?

While I was writing this I managed to create a double stack, that runs two steam turbines off of 6 gas pumps, but never with all of them running at once, due to over pressurized vents.  Double stack is the best that's possible without using some form of over pressure exploit, but that's fine, the over pressure works to limit the power used by the.  It ends up being the equivalent of just under 4, as I generated ~2400kJ(2298.4, very solid uptime) at a cost of 568kJ.  

Managing to get things balanced to keep that flowing though would be harsh.  I managed to get it into flow using the sandbox to add or delete steam until it balanced out.  I am sure a manner of automating it exists, but Idk what that would be.  Probably having to do with atmo sensors.

[thejams]

1 hour ago, Iriswaters said:

But I'm wondering if anyone knows the other side of the equation.  The increase.  Is it an amount exactly equal to the total DTUs removed?  Or is it that the machine is just given a 14'C boost, so it depends on the material it's made of?  Or is it the contents of a square increased 14'C?

The aqua-tuner is heated by the equal amount of the heat removed + a bit of experiments seemed to show it generates some additional heat (quite marginal, something like 1/1000 of the heat transferred).

Here are the numbers for maximum throughput for different types of liquids:

	Amount	Specific Heat	Start Temp		End temp	Heating/Cooling
	g/s	(DTU/g)/°C	°C		°C	DTU/s
Super Coolant	10 000	8,440	0		−14,0	−1 181 600
Polluted water	10 000	4,179	0		−14,0	−585 060
Water	10 000	4,179	0		−14,0	−585 060
Petroleum	10 000	1,760	0		−14,0	−246 400
Crude oil	10 000	1,690	0		−14,0	−236 600

[Iriswaters]

Awesome.   That's very helpful info.  Though the numbers there for Polluted Water don't line up to the specific heat listed elsewhere.  The wiki lists it at 6, not 4.179, hence my stating that the max cooling DTU/s was 840k.   Also, the tuner doesn't run g/s, it runs kg/s, so heats/cools kDTU/s.    

I wasn't aware of the existence of Super Coolant, that'd allow 2 aquatuners to run 1 turbine.   Using a double stack of turbines gives me a little over 3000 W of excess power, enough to easily run 2.5 tuners. 

In total, a closed system of 4 tuners and 2 steamers only costs 1800 kJ, and the heat is simply annihilated.    Almost 5M DTU/s just vanished from the universe.   Certainly beats the lowly Heat Sink....

 

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, Iriswaters said:

Though the numbers there for Polluted Water don't line up to the specific heat listed elsewhere.  The wiki lists it at 6, not 4.179

The wiki is wrong. Open the game and see yourself.

[Iriswaters]

Ah.   Good to know.   So no reason to run polluted water then, apart from the slightly different freeze/vapor points.

[thejams]

3 minutes ago, Iriswaters said:

Also, the tuner doesn't run g/s, it runs kg/s, so heats/cools kDTU/s.    

Err, what? 

(p.s. it's exactly the same)

[Iriswaters]

10 minutes ago, thejams said:

Err, what? 

(p.s. it's exactly the same)

g/s is not the same as Kg/s.  It's a difference of 1000x.

.....

Oh.  I see what is happening.   You are using dots for commas and commas for dots.   I see 10.000 and my brain reads '10'.   Normally also reads 4,179 as over 4k, but since I already knew those values it didn't register.  Is that a difference in denotation between countries?

Ah, it's a US-UK thing.   My mistake.

[thejams]

7 minutes ago, Iriswaters said:

Oh.  I see what is happening.   You are using dots for commas and commas for dots.   I see 10.000 and my brain reads '10'.   Normally also reads 4,179 as over 4k, but since I already knew those values it didn't register.  Is that a difference in denotation between countries?

Yeah, the default for pretty much all european countries is "," for decimal separator.  The stupidity of this world...

[Saturnus]

7 minutes ago, thejams said:

Yeah, the default for pretty much all european countries is "." for decimal separator.  The stupidity of this world...

Most countries in the World use comma as the decimal separator and dot as the thousands divider. Some countries use the reverse. And a few countries like Canada and South Africa use both making the confusion total.

[Iriswaters]

So, back to numbers.   I just ran my double stack with 3 supercoolant aquatuners.  And it is keeping it at a steady temperature.   So that is only 500 kJ/s to run 3 aquatuners.   I think that if one used door pressure pumps it might just break even.   

So, in case one -really- needs to cool something...

No, it doesn't need a reservoir that big, that was just due to having made one too small previously. 

[thejams]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

Most countries use comma as the decimal separator and dot as the thousands divider. Some countries use the reverse. And a few countries like Canada and South Africa use both making the confusion total.

I thought the same until I saw this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator#Arabic_numerals

Few more countries on the comma side, but considering the three most populous countries, China, India and the US are on the dot side it's kinda moot 

Anyway,I changed the table to a neutral format  

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, thejams said:

Few more countries on the comma side, but considering the three most populous countries, China, India and the US are on the dot side it's kinda moot 

In terms of populous both systems are split almost exactly 50/50.

[thejams]

TIL Google sheets defaults " " (space) for digit grouping for EU countries.

(last from me, I promise)

[Saturnus]

6 minutes ago, thejams said:

TIL Google sheets defaults " " (space) for digit grouping for EU countries.

The interesting thing here, or slightly amusing to me at least, is that if you had left it unchanged the end result would be correct with either interpretation as it doesn't matter if you have 10*8.440*14 or 10.000*8,44*14, both would equal 1.181.600.

[SakuraKoi]

4 minutes ago, thejams said:

Few more countries on the comma side, but considering the three most populous countries, China, India and the US are on the dot side it's kinda moot 

but none of those are "first world" countries!? *(t)rolls away*

Seriously, we also have some fools not using the metric system but any discussion on that is totally meaningless, and I shan't tell why (nor that the table is still not "neutral")~

 

In any event, well, as apparent, it is the Supercoolant which can "shift" the most DTU, otherwise, because of low quantity, water would be the choice however the main concern there is obviously the low range, making Petroleum and Oil much better choices. Only Supercoolant alone would probably be able to use Steam Turbines to their full effect while removing the heat.

[Iriswaters]

So, running a test, you can run 3 super coolant aquatuners, removing the heat from the universe Wheezewort style, pulling out 3.4M DTU/s, for a total cost of 533 W.   In a space about the size of 2 compact SPOMs.

This thing works fine without supercoolant.  The only issue is that it eats heat MUCH faster than you are going to be able to produce it.   It still provides a 'free' sink for as much heat as you feel like getting rid of, but in order to work it needs either 2-4 times as many tuners running to keep the heat up, or to be running off a volcano or something similar.  It will still sink the same amount of heat per turbine, it's just that it can't sink LESS.  Feed it less and the candle goes out.

[qda]

4 hours ago, Iriswaters said:

I'm curious what the maximum temperature that can be created by an aquatuner is.  Just the amount added, with the amount lost disregarded(there are no shortage of things we want to cool, after all).  I'm interested to find out how many are needed to keep a steam engine running. Obviously more than one, at best they get rid of 840kJ/s, so if that is a pure transfer, it'd be 3?  Maybe?

I still don't know if the steam turbine outputs steam at a constant temperature (425K), or if it drops the steam's temperature by a fixed amount (75K).

Either way, just to give you an idea of how powerful a steam turbine is, here are some calculations :

Assuming all 5 ports open (10kg/s), and that it reduces the temperature on average by 75K, you can delete enough heat, depending on the liquid cooled, for a constant operation of :

Water/PWater : 5.36 aquatuners

Super coolant : 2.66 aquatuners

Oil : 13.27 aquatuners

Petroleum : 12.74 aquatuners

Naphta, even if I doubt it has any uses : 10.24 aquatuners.

So yeah, steam turbine is a hellish beast. If you want to tune these numbers to your needs, you just can remove 20% to the number of aquatuners for each closed port on your steam turbine :

Have fun with steel ATs !

[Cypher-7]

3 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Most countries in the World use comma as the decimal separator and dot as the thousands divider. Some countries use the reverse. And a few countries like Canada and South Africa use both making the confusion total.

My god! This explains so much of my confusion.

[suicide commando]

Forget Steel aqua tuners, Go thermium, I used this math to build the thermal Annihilator, which produces power and cools things.. oh and a LOX beast as well by hooking up said cooling to 4 electrolysers, and ITS NOT ENOUGH!

 

[psusi]

8 hours ago, Iriswaters said:

Awesome.   That's very helpful info.  Though the numbers there for Polluted Water don't line up to the specific heat listed elsewhere.  The wiki lists it at 6, not 4.179, hence my stating that the max cooling DTU/s was 840k.   Also, the tuner doesn't run g/s, it runs kg/s, so heats/cools kDTU/s.    

The wiki is out of date.  They nerfed that in the Rocketry Update.

[crypticorb]

56 minutes ago, suicide commando said:

Forget Steel aqua tuners, Go thermium, I used this math to build the thermal Annihilator, which produces power and cools things.. oh and a LOX beast as well by hooking up said cooling to 4 electrolysers, and ITS NOT ENOUGH!

Your thermium/supercoolant turbine beast isn't enough for a LOX condenser? Is it because the turbines aren't destroying the heat fast enough, or the steam gas pumps aren't moving the steam fast enough?

If it's the former, just stack more turbines, if the latter, I can hook you up with an unpowered door compressor that I've been cooking up that can scale to multiple turbines vertically.

[suicide commando]

no it's the reverse, 5 electrolysers are not enough to provide the heat needed to keep the aqua tuners and the steam turbines happy and running full time.

 

 

[Iriswaters]

The number of open ports thing is interesting.  It does not seem to impact the amount of power, but it does change the amount of steam cooled.  So if room/materials are the limitation, and you want maximum cooling, opening all 5 jets is great.  If energy efficiency is your interest, you're better off leaving 4 vents closed.

This whole thing definitely isn't an obvious or intuitive arrangement.  When I heard about blocking vents, I'd imagined it reduced the output power equivalently.  But it does allow for some interesting fine tuning.

 

I don't really see a lot of difference between steel and thermium construction.  Though the thermium does seem to destroy slightly more heat for some reason...?  I also still can't tell if it's an absolute or relative drop for certain.  They do seem to destroy more heat add higher heats. But given that my double stack works, without any efficiency loss, and that I even got a quad stack to vaguely function(starting with just under 800K steam), if sputtery, does seem to suggest a relative drop.

[crypticorb]

2 minutes ago, suicide commando said:

no it's the reverse, 5 electrolysers are not enough to provide the heat needed to keep the aqua tuners and the steam turbines happy and running full time.

You can't produce enough raw material to cool? Wow, your thermal annihilator is more impressive than I thought.

Maybe you should look into making an LH2 condenser if you're looking for something to feed the beast.

[suicide commando]

I just discovered hydrogen engines, so yes, this is on the menu.. right now I'm considering to rebuild my rocket silo, and work out a better way to isolate it from the rest of the base, so I can vent the CO2 from landing and takeoff into space. I've got a serious amount of CO2 right now floating around in my asteroid, and it's starting to become an issue.. the first thermal annihilator is keeping the silo's cool.. so cool in fact that the CO2 after take offs, quickly condenses into liquid and solid forms, drips down and I've been capturing it to feed to my slicksters.. my 30 or so slicksters aren't making a dent in it though.. there's like 5kg/tile CO2 pressure down in my oil biome right now, with more CO2 on the way.