Scalable SPOM unit

[thejams]

@KittenIsAGeek I'm using your design as well now, I find it very easy to setup and 100% stable.

[PhailRaptor]

9 minutes ago, Cipupec2 said:

40 minutes ago, thejams said:

@Cipupec2 I know that setup, I just find it way too abusive 

Some say the same about the mechanical filter, i just feel that they are natural progression for experience players.

I can't say for the mechanical pipe filtration method, because I've never tinkered with trying to build one and don't completely understand where the actual sorting comes from.

However, taking advantage of "flooding" detection thresholds to block out space to achieve 100% gas separation is incredibly exploity to me.  Others may have different opinions, ultimately the only opinion that matters is that of the devs.  Maybe they'll change it, maybe they won't.

[thejams]

11 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

I can't say for the mechanical pipe filtration method, because I've never tinkered with trying to build one and don't completely understand where the actual sorting comes from.

It plays on the pipe priorities - an endless loop of very small (0.1g for example) packets is created with the valve.  When a packet of gas comes at the bridge input, there already is a small packet at the output, so if the gas matches, it goes through the bridge, if it doesn't it continues along the pipe as it sees the bridge output as blocked.

[Cipupec2]

34 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

However, taking advantage of "flooding" detection thresholds to block out space to achieve 100% gas separation is incredibly exploity to me.  Others may have different opinions, ultimately the only opinion that matters is that of the devs.  Maybe they'll change it, maybe they won't.

That depends your definitions, one might argue that mechanical separation setup take advantage of in-game gas mechanics to achieve gas separation and that 1 electrolizer + 2 gas pumps + 1 gas filter is the only true way to go!

For me this setup is natural progression of the mechanical separation, which with a little tinkering and logic gets to that 100% fool proof mark, I just don't want to waste time on building this unwieldy setup (which I built many times), when I have new frontiers to explore, to take a piss where no dup has taken piss before*. The only thing I consider to be an exploit here is that it allows the unlimited storage, which I don't use here nor elsewhere. 

* triva question who was the first person to piss on the moon?

[crypticorb]

1 hour ago, thejams said:

It plays on the pipe priorities - an endless loop of very small (0.1g for example) packets is created with the valve.  When a packet of gas comes at the bridge input, there already is a small packet at the output, so if the gas matches, it goes through the bridge, if it doesn't it continues along the pipe as it sees the bridge output as blocked.

Hmmm. This mechanical filter seems like it could work against itself at some point.

Eventually, it will run out of that 1000g packet it is drawing the 0.1g packets from. Assuming the packets travel at 5 packets per second through a pipe (guesstimate number) it would take about 3 cycles. Once it does, wouldn't it just pull whatever packet is closest into that spot for the new "filtered" output?

That could potentially result in the exact opposite desired result if it pulls hydrogen into the mechanical filter.

[Nemez]

 

[crypticorb]

10 minutes ago, Nemez said:

 

That... doesn't help. And nowhere in those nested forum threads was there a concrete answer to the question, just a deep rabbit hole that was archived a year ago.

[Cipupec2]

It works in rather straight forward fashion, but a bit more complicated to explain/understand/operate than the build I am using.

[PhailRaptor]

2 minutes ago, Cipupec2 said:

It works in rather straight forward fashion, but a bit more complicated to explain/understand/operate than the build I am using.

You have 2 people saying they've done research on it and still don't understand how or why it works.  It can't be that straight forward.

[beowulf2010]

2 hours ago, crypticorb said:

Eventually, it will run out of that 1000g packet it is drawing the 0.1g packets from. Assuming the packets travel at 5 packets per second through a pipe (guesstimate number) it would take about 3 cycles. Once it does, wouldn't it just pull whatever packet is closest into that spot for the new "filtered" output?

Mechanical Filters do not store anything.

It has 3 main parts and one of 2 methods of controlling overflow. 

1) It uses a small loop (4 pieces of pipe in a U shape and a valve set to 1g/s for gas) filled with 1g blocks of gas to block anything but the desired element. 

2) There is an exit tail off of the piece of pipe that has the white part of the valve and this is where all but 1 gram of what was input into the filter is pushed into where the filtered element is going. 

3) You bridge into the mechanical filter to one or both of the exposed pipe pieces from the feeder line. 

Overflow) To control overflow caused by full packets, you need to do one of 2 things. Either use a valve to limit the amount of the element to under full packet size (I use 995 for gas) or build a pipe loop from the end of the feeder line back to the beginning of the line. 

I'm not fond of looping within the feeder line so I use the valve method exclusively. There is a loop outside of the mechanical filter assembly before the feeder valve. 

Note: I tend to up the quantity of the valve within the filter mini-loop to 25g when working with liquids and the limiter valve (if used) to 9,950g.

I can do some pictures if that'd help. 

[KittenIsAGeek]

This is a loop.  Whatever value you set your valve to will circulate around this loop indefinitely.  In the case of a mechanical filter, it is set to the lowest value that still has meaning.

Spoiler

 

This is the output.  Whatever is extra from looping will go out.  The input of the valve will ALWAYS take the amount that the valve is set to -- anything extra continues on past the valve input.

Spoiler

Now we will add the input.  Fluid or gas, depending on your pipe, can only leave the bridge if it: 1) Matches the element on the output side, or 2) the output side is empty.  Since your loop will be full of small packets of element A, only element A can pass the bridge.  Everything else goes out the top.

Spoiler

Does that answer your question?

[crypticorb]

32 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Does that answer your question?

I... think so. I'll have to drop into my sandbox to screw around to see it myself, but your explanation greatly helps.

How does the mechanical filter differ from the method @Kelirt is using here? I'm not sure what is going on with the bridges on the right side there, and that was partially what my original question was aimed at.

I'm also not sure what's going on in the upper section of the original SPOM design in the OP.

11 hours ago, Kelirt said:

Yes. Power loss is a problem, but overpressure not. Simple protection with element sensor and power shutoff.

 

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 minute ago, crypticorb said:

I... think so. I'll have to drop into my sandbox to screw around to see it myself, but your explanation greatly helps.

How does the mechanical filter differ from the method @Kelirt is using here? I'm not sure what is going on with the bridges on the right side there, and that was partially what my original question was aimed at.

I'm also not sure what's going on in the upper section of the original SPOM design in the OP.

 

Sorry, my last picture was incorrect.  This is how the last picture SHOULD look:

Spoiler

Editing my post now to fix the problem.

Also, in the picture @Kelirt posted that you quoted he's using an element sensor to see if there is something on a feedback loop.  If there is, then it shuts the pump off because it means that the main loop is full.  Basically, no oxygen will ever go through the second bridge UNLESS the pipe is full and it can't go through the top bridge.  If this is the case, then the element sensor detects the oxygen in the second pipe and turns off the pump. In this way, you won't over-pressure your shut-off valve and send oxygen through the wrong pipe.

[Cipupec2]

@PhailRaptor I am not sure which part is confusing you and I am not expert by any means, but here is rough run down of the rules that might help understanding all these mechanical tricks seen in this thread:

1. That materials don't mix, so any single tile or pipe section can only hold a single type of gas/water at time.
2. Lower density gas tends to rise above others 
3. Pipe has max capacity and bridges priority rules

Using these you get:
#1 : Is the reason why a droplet of water in corner will works as water lock:

Spoiler

#1+#2 : is why mechanical electrolizer setup work, because once primed the oxygen which is of higher desnity will never mix with hydro in the second chamber

Spoiler

#1+#3 - mechanical filter. Simply put you split your mainline with priority bridge, to which you connect a loop with valve set to small packet size(x) and pipe off using secondary priority, and finally put valve on your mainline input to size 1000-x.  (x being the bare minimum 1g) 

Spoiler

basic setup

Because of the way bridge priorities work (1) packets in the filter loop will first go through the valve and only send the leftover out, which guaranty that what you prime the system with will be running in a continues loop of 1g packet inside the filter. (2) packets in the mainline will first try to merge into filter, and only those of the same substance will. 

EDIT: looks like @KittenIsAGeek explained this one better.

8 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Why double?  Single works just fine.  Its only getting up to about 55c in there.

This likely because you your bleeding heat into your base (which is exactly what I want to avoid) or that the heat build up exchanged with what looks like cold pipe inside the chamber

[ShadowOfALegend]

I have a SPOM set up to pipe O2 to my exo suits then run off to my LOX and will eventually become fuel for my rockets

[crypticorb]

16 hours ago, Kelirt said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

max electrolyzer performance

2 gas pump per electrolyzer

sensor based

https://imgur.com/a/ikvKNn6

1.Oxygen overfill sensor connected with power shutoff[3] (buffer delay 2s)

2.Hydrogen detection sensor

3.Power shutoff. Each SPOM unit (Electrolyzer+2gas pump) has independent oxygen overfill protection. 4.Oxygen/Hydrogen separation.

5.Oxygen termal sensor - aquatuner enable/disable control.

6.Hydrogen generator protection sensor.

7.Aquatuner radiator filling pipe: full radiator can't work - "pipe blocked" error. Disconnet from water income, deconstruct one radiator section and build it again.

System limited by hydrogen pipe capacity. Only 4 SPOM unit in one pipe, but you can avoid limit with second hydro pipe.

https://imgur.com/a/Eu8Lz2Z

At start you need some external power source. Carefully plan the power circuit.

I'm having a hell of a time understanding what is going on in the top section of your system, and the screenshots you linked are difficult to decipher.

Can you provide a save file so I can tinker with it myself? I'd like to give it a try in my base, but it's costing loads of resources and dupe time getting it wrong.

[Cipupec2]

12 hours ago, Kelirt said:

Power loss is a problem, but overpressure not. Simple protection with element sensor and power shutoff.

Btw adding another valve in-front just before your filter and setting it to always on, would be a simple power loss protection method.

[Kabrute]

5 hours ago, Cipupec2 said:

* triva question who was the first person to piss on the moon?

depends on who you get your history from.  ZS claimed the anunaki were pissin where no man had pissed before and we still don't know what the "black knight satellite" is.

[thejams]

6 hours ago, crypticorb said:

Hmmm. This mechanical filter seems like it could work against itself at some point.

Eventually, it will run out of that 1000g packet it is drawing the 0.1g packets from. Assuming the packets travel at 5 packets per second through a pipe (guesstimate number) it would take about 3 cycles. Once it does, wouldn't it just pull whatever packet is closest into that spot for the new "filtered" output?

That could potentially result in the exact opposite desired result if it pulls hydrogen into the mechanical filter.

The 0,1g packets are trapped inside the loop, they don't need an outside source to replenish.  Once primed, a mechanical filter functions indefinitely letting only gas matching the loop pass by.

 

[Kelirt]

2 hours ago, crypticorb said:

Can you provide a save file so I can tinker with it myself? I'd like to give it a try in my base, but it's costing loads of resources and dupe time getting it wrong.

 

[Angpaur]

23 hours ago, Kelirt said:

 

  Hide contents

 

max electrolyzer performance

2 gas pump per electrolyzer

sensor based

https://imgur.com/a/ikvKNn6

1.Oxygen overfill sensor connected with power shutoff[3] (buffer delay 2s)

2.Hydrogen detection sensor

3.Power shutoff. Each SPOM unit (Electrolyzer+2gas pump) has independent oxygen overfill protection. 4.Oxygen/Hydrogen separation.

5.Oxygen termal sensor - aquatuner enable/disable control.

6.Hydrogen generator protection sensor.

7.Aquatuner radiator filling pipe: full radiator can't work - "pipe blocked" error. Disconnet from water income, deconstruct one radiator section and build it again.

System limited by hydrogen pipe capacity. Only 4 SPOM unit in one pipe, but you can avoid limit with second hydro pipe.

https://imgur.com/a/Eu8Lz2Z

At start you need some external power source. Carefully plan the power circuit.

OK, why nobody yet has mentioned that this SPOM design worst flaw is hydrogen deletion? Few month ago I posted in this forum same layout of electrolyzed and pumps. I also was excited about it until I realized it deletes hydrogen. Such major flaw is a no go for me. Now I'm using setup that actually creates more hydrogen than electrolyzer should produce.

[Kelirt]

You're right. Who stole my hydrogen ?  ~ 4kg/c

[crypticorb]

6 hours ago, Angpaur said:

OK, why nobody yet has mentioned that this SPOM design worst flaw is hydrogen deletion? Few month ago I posted in this forum same layout of electrolyzed and pumps. I also was excited about it until I realized it deletes hydrogen. Such major flaw is a no go for me. Now I'm using setup that actually creates more hydrogen than electrolyzer should produce.

What causes the gas deletion? Or to rephrase: what about this specific design causes the hydrogen to vanish that other builds don't?

What setup are you using that does not have gas deletion?

[Kelirt]

 

[Cipupec2]

28 minutes ago, crypticorb said:

What setup are you using that does not have gas deletion?

The mechanical separation setup is pretty much the gold standard here, an example of which was posted by @clickrush in one of the early posts. 

Also above I explained the reason why it works, see the mechanical electrolizer setup, simply make sure to put the electrolizer just bellow the hydrogen line. If you don't like it you can achieve the same by using thermo and gas element sensors with some logic.