Sevio Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 One of the first things I noticed while looking at my initial colony buildings is that all units of heat are now shown in a new unit called DTU. (Duplicant Thermal Unit?). I also noticed that buildings such as the Manual Generator and tiny battery generate quite a lot of these. I figure this was brought on by a few things among which: The inconsistencies in the heat system that have been known to advanced players for a while, with buildings showing much less heat generation than they actually produced and taking less energy to heat up than they should for their mass. The disconnect between electrical power and the heat that can be generated by buildings like the tepidizer, thermoregulator and aquatuner. I appreciate that something is being done about these, even if it is just a bandaid to stop people wondering why heat energy and electrical energy have such a big mismatch. Update: Some points were addressed by update 283065, it turns out DTUs are simply Joules renamed and most buildings now show true heat generation. (their previous heat generation is now 200x more and shown as DTU/s) However... Here's my feedback for why I think the new DTU is a problematic move: Tooltips when constructing show their heat generation in thousands of DTU/s (1000 for manual gen, 1.25 kDTU for tiny battery) whereas the tooltip when selecting them shows the heat production as 0.95/s DTU for manual gen, 1.18 DTU/s for the tiny battery. I'm not sure which is correct but it is an inconsistency that should be fixed. Lack of precision - Heat Capacity of elements is now shown in DTU/g/C instead of J/g/C. The biggest problem with this is that the DTU appears to be a pretty large unit and so all of the numbers are displayed in the ingame tooltip with a huge lack of precision as 0.001, 0.002 etc. This makes it harder to reason about heat in the game based on the numbers that are given. Lack of precision 2 - many of the heat numbers for buildings that generate more than 1000 DTUs are shown with a precision of only one or two digits. More precision would be appreciated, at least 3 or 4 digits if the number could use that many. Additional inconsistency - Mass and temperature for Elements in the world are shown in standard units - grams and the user's choice of Kelvin/C/F, so this feels like a step backwards that only serves to obfuscate what is actually going on with the thermal system. I sincerely hope that you'll revert all heat units back to Joules as in the expressive update. If necessary, show heat generation in Joules per second instead of Watts, to reduce the association with electrical power. Instead, I would propose to rename electrical power since that unit cannot be made consistent with the thermal system. You could call them Zaps, DF (Duplicant Flux) or anything else that's not Watts and Joules. The elements and buildings will have their standard units back and it still masks the disconnect between electrical power and heat generation. Also, I think that the opportunity for tangential learning about heat capacity and conductivity with real units is more valuable here than keeping electrical units based on Watts and Joules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzeTheGreat Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I completely agree. It makes far more sense to rename electrical units than heat units. Unless the entire game is going to be revamped to use a nonsensical temperature system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpalerWrG Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Seems much of the precision issue could be solved by using DTU/kg rather then DTU/g as DTU is close to 1kJ. I also would not rule out the possibility that electric power units will also be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevio Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 A small update since this update happened: It looks like some of my points were addressed, the inconsistent heat generation and heat capacity given in the info windows for selected items. It's now clear that DTUs are simply Joules renamed seeing how I recognize all of the heat capacity values as being the same from before. The heat generation numbers on buildings now show the true generation. The smart battery used to be 2.5 W, now is 500 DTU/s, which is the x200 factor that was known about. The other batteries matched up as well. I just hope the heat generation numbers showing in kDTU/s are accurate even if they're only one digit. Notable exceptions are the thermoregulator and aquatuner, which still show their estimates in watts. As do the recipes on the metal refinery. So that leaves only my last point of criticism for the new DTU. Since mass and temperature for elements and buildings are standard units, it makes more sense to have heat capacity and thermal conductivity as standard units as well and instead use nonstandard units for electrical power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blash365 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Not all units btw. The aquatuner and thermo regulator still mention watts. 15 minutes ago, Sevio said: Notable exceptions are the thermoregulator and aquatuner, which still show their estimates in watts. As do the recipes on the metal refinery. Oh, you already found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Glad that's been cleared up - I had suggested doing away with watts for stored electricity and instead stating joules for all things electrical. This would have isolated watts for heat energy at least - this wouldn't have unmasked the ~200x factor that so many people had been issuing their grievances over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpalerWrG Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Joules are what stored energy is measured in. Also I hope they are using 1,000 J for the DTU, not the the BTU figure of 1,055 J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 The new scale name should be "ABBA" or "ELO", easier for me to remember - Thinking of great tunes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 What if the D stood for Delta.......then DTU/s would be shorthand for Change in Temperature of Unit per Second....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.L.S. Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 On 25.08.2018 at 12:26 AM, Sevio said: Notable exceptions are the thermoregulator and aquatuner, which still show their estimates in watts. As do the recipes on the metal refinery. thermoregulator (and i'm almost sure aquatuner too) work correct even in current live build, they have 100% efficiency(not produce waste heat, additional heat as byproduct of working, like liquid pump for example), but the process of moving heat energy from substance inside device to outside world works correct(all joules transfers as expected), i did many tests with thermoregulator, machine work as intended, depends of gas inside, it cools gas for constant 14C and release to outside world exact amount of heat energy worse of 14C * gas heat capacity * processed gas weight in joules(a bit more then 33kJ per 1kg of hydrogen for example), approximate number in description(14.7W) is for 1kg/s flow of oxygen(1.05(J/C/g) * 14C * 1000g = 14700J, in game it is = 14.7W, while suppose to be 14.7kW, 1kW = 1000J/s). In game screwed only watts(both electric and heat), I suppose that it's because time compresses so 1 ingame second represent 1000 real one, hence 1000 times lower values, but joules is totally fine(both electric and heat). I'd like to have checkbox in setting to turn off new DTU stuff, i can deal with 1W = realistic 1kW(or 1 sec in description = 1000 real seconds, then watts fit), already used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anton_stezhkin Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 On 8/23/2018 at 11:23 PM, Sevio said: Joules per second instead of Watts But 1 Watt = 1 Joule per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraaIzilUss Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Honestly I think they should make it a standard across the board. Heat relayed in Jules, as is standard in real life. Power in watts, again standard. Whether those are in J/W, kJ/kW, so on and so forth. One problem I have noticed however, especially in debug/sandbox mode, when spanning in items, gasses, fluids, etc. the temperature selection option shows Kelvin, no matter what the selection in options A similar thing happens in the descriptions of the machines in the database, it shows overheat temp in °F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Its like in mobile games...Coins,Blue Gems,Prestige,Points & Chests and various conversion rates between all of those What about adding gallons, british/usa ton values, miles per hour, seamiles, kmh, becquerel, sievert, light year etc. ? I guess one could come up with another 50 scaling definitions. I forgot to add Ludicrous Speed ! A fest for conversion tools Personally I count in "Donuts per hour, after the Christian Calendar". Completing a work task requires a time frame of eating 3 donuts, but it can also be done in 2 blood moons. My favourite scale is Scoville, on my spicy baguette. I guess the peppernut receipe could come handy in the game on that. In ONI its the year of the dupe, it had been recently announced in china. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ludicrous speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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