Optimizing thermo-regulators

[psusi]

So I was thinking that air pumps only pump 500g/s but a thermo-regulator can process twice that, so doesn't that mean a SPOM feeding a thermo-regulator or two to cool the output oxygen is inefficient?  What happens once the base is pressurized and the oxygen backstuffs?  If a gas vent lets out say, only 100g of oxygen, does that mean the thermo-regulator is even less efficient because it processes a 100g packet?  Or does it only operate when the first section of output pipe is completely empty and process a full 1000g packet assuming the input pipe from the SPOM is backstuffed?

 

[WanderingKid]

Usually you run a thermo regulator in a loop at 1000g packets.

[The Flying Fox]

2 hours ago, psusi said:

So I was thinking that air pumps only pump 500g/s but a thermo-regulator can process twice that, so doesn't that mean a SPOM feeding a thermo-regulator or two to cool the output oxygen is inefficient?  What happens once the base is pressurized and the oxygen backstuffs?  If a gas vent lets out say, only 100g of oxygen, does that mean the thermo-regulator is even less efficient because it processes a 100g packet?  Or does it only operate when the first section of output pipe is completely empty and process a full 1000g packet assuming the input pipe from the SPOM is backstuffed?

 

My understanding of gas vents is that they release full packets out of them, regardless of the size.  I can't recall ever seeing them do otherwise.  Otherwise, you're right.  The thermo-regulator and the aqua-tuner use the same amount of power regardless of the size of the packet, or the gas/liquid flowing through them.  If they're running, they use the 240/1200 watts they're rated for.

 

Thus, what WanderingKid said is correct.  If you think either is somehow not going to run full packets through them, then it's better to create a loop so that full packets are always processed.

[Kabrute]

but if you create a backlog and see that 10g or whatever floating right behind the regulator, you are processing full 1kg/10kg packets, (or whatever size is at their input)

[psusi]

That's what I was thinking.  A natural backlog happens when the vents hit over pressure, but you could also use a valve to temporarily stop the flow of gas out to backlog the thermo regulator, then open the valve to exactly 500 and it should keep the regulators operating on 1000g packets right?  They will just be toggling on and off all the time.

[Whispershade]

2 hours ago, psusi said:

That's what I was thinking.  A natural backlog happens when the vents hit over pressure, but you could also use a valve to temporarily stop the flow of gas out to backlog the thermo regulator, then open the valve to exactly 500 and it should keep the regulators operating on 1000g packets right?  They will just be toggling on and off all the time.

That could work assuming you maintain a constant even flow. Which in practice can be difficult. It would also restrict the capacity of the pipe in the case that you could handle more volume. There is also the possibility of using a a series of bridges to force merging of packets. I believe people have called these 'packet combiners' and there should be examples on the forums.

[chemie]

12 hours ago, The Flying Fox said:

My understanding of gas vents is that they release full packets out of them, regardless of the size.  I can't recall ever seeing them do otherwise.  Otherwise, you're right.  The thermo-regulator and the aqua-tuner use the same amount of power regardless of the size of the packet, or the gas/liquid flowing through them.  If they're running, they use the 240/1200 watts they're rated for.

 

Thus, what WanderingKid said is correct.  If you think either is somehow not going to run full packets through them, then it's better to create a loop so that full packets are always processed.

Nope.  Tuner only consumes power each time a full packet is processed.  When backstuffed with less than 10 kg flow, it will idle until the outlet is emptied of one packet then burp a single packet.  I do not recall if thermal regs do the same thing but believe they do...I just normally have them run closed loop now we have radiant pipes.  Closed loop means no power for gas pumps.

[Craigjw]

Do aquatuners produce the same amount of heat regardless of the volume of liquid cooled?

[chemie]

7 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

Do aquatuners produce the same amount of heat regardless of the volume of liquid cooled?

I thought they just move the heat but since it is fixed 14c change, I would not be surprised by either scenario

[Craigjw]

if I pump 100kg of liquid through the pump at 1kg/s is that going to heat up the cooling medium the same amount as if I pump the same volume of liquid at 5kg/s.  If this is true, then it would be more efficient to pump at maximum rate, as the power consumption is the same regardless of how much is cooled.

[chemie]

7 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

if I pump 100kg of liquid through the pump at 1kg/s is that going to heat up the cooling medium the same amount as if I pump the same volume of liquid at 5kg/s.  If this is true, then it would be more efficient to pump at maximum rate, as the power consumption is the same regardless of how much is cooled.

If you pump 1 kg.s and allow 1 kg.s to exit, it consumes same power as 10 kg.s

As I stated above, if you back the outlet up so pipe is full and only 1 kg.s is going in and out, then you use 10% of normal power since it only processes 10 kg packets so it takes 10 ticks to create that void in the outlet

[psusi]

59 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

That could work assuming you maintain a constant even flow. Which in practice can be difficult. It would also restrict the capacity of the pipe in the case that you could handle more volume. There is also the possibility of using a a series of bridges to force merging of packets. I believe people have called these 'packet combiners' and there should be examples on the forums.

I'm not following what you are saying.  What flow needs to be constant and even and why?  Restricting the capacity of the pipe is exactly what the 500g/s valve is for.  It only lets out as much as the air pump can stuff in, so the pipe section going through the regulators will always stay full of 1000g packets.

 

[Whispershade]

29 minutes ago, psusi said:

I'm not following what you are saying.  What flow needs to be constant and even and why?  Restricting the capacity of the pipe is exactly what the 500g/s valve is for.  It only lets out as much as the air pump can stuff in, so the pipe section going through the regulators will always stay full of 1000g packets.

 

If you only have a single pump supplying that line, whenever it didn't pump a full 500g/s, which can happen for a number of reasons, the backup you created with the valve is diminished, because the valve still let out 500g/s. It also inhibits the use of the line to handle more than one pump in concurrence since it's capped at 500g/s capacity. For example, I use a two pump setup for my exosuit supply lines to minimize fill time.

I mean, the issues aren't the end of the world. You can certainly do it that way. There might be reasons you might prefer a different solution that doesn't require that much attention, though.

[psusi]

Obviously a double electrolyzer setup would be best, but if you only have one and limit the flow with a valve, I don't see any way the pump could not keep up with feeding the thermo-regulators a full 1000g packet at a time.  Every tick 500g comes out, and every tick the pump puts in 500g.  Every other tick, a 1000g packet shuffles down the line and through the regulators, then takes two ticks to make it past the valve.

 

[WanderingKid]

49 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

if I pump 100kg of liquid through the pump at 1kg/s is that going to heat up the cooling medium the same amount as if I pump the same volume of liquid at 5kg/s.  If this is true, then it would be more efficient to pump at maximum rate, as the power consumption is the same regardless of how much is cooled.

It is more efficient power wise to push the maximum amount of material through the line for the Thermo / Aqua so that the wattage of the unit gets the most work done.  The heat transferred into the Thermo/Aqua will depend on the mass of the material that's used.

So, you're correct. 

1 hour ago, chemie said:

Nope.  Tuner only consumes power each time a full packet is processed.  When backstuffed with less than 10 kg flow, it will idle until the outlet is emptied of one packet then burp a single packet.  I do not recall if thermal regs do the same thing but believe they do...I just normally have them run closed loop now we have radiant pipes.  Closed loop means no power for gas pumps.

I will have to confirm the tuner as I rarely run it at lower volumes, but the thermo Regulator has no problem cooling down 100g packets, 700g packets, or 1000g packets.  They show up, it cools them, and off they go.

[psusi]

4 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

1 hour ago, chemie said:

Nope.  Tuner only consumes power each time a full packet is processed.  When backstuffed with less than 10 kg flow, it will idle until the outlet is emptied of one packet then burp a single packet.  I do not recall if thermal regs do the same thing but believe they do...I just normally have them run closed loop now we have radiant pipes.  Closed loop means no power for gas pumps.

I will have to confirm the tuner as I rarely run it at lower volumes, but the thermo Regulator has no problem cooling down 100g packets, 700g packets, or 1000g packets.  They show up, it cools them, and off they go.

Yes, but he was saying what I have been saying:  if you keep the regulator backstuffed, then it will idle until it can process a full 1000g packet.  It only goes into lower efficiency smaller packets if the output isn't backstuffed and the input is less than 1000g.

 

[WanderingKid]

@psusi You'll have to help me out here.  What is 'Backstuffed'?

[psusi]

1 minute ago, WanderingKid said:

@psusi You'll have to help me out here.  What is 'Backstuffed'?

The output line is full and backed up, thus preventing the regulator from operating until the first section of pipe is fully emptied.

 

[WanderingKid]

2 minutes ago, psusi said:

The output line is full and backed up, thus preventing the regulator from operating until the first section of pipe is fully emptied.

Thank you.  Some how while reading the entire thread I managed to miss this concern.  With that in mind...

14 minutes ago, psusi said:

Every tick 500g comes out, and every tick the pump puts in 500g.  Every other tick, a 1000g packet shuffles down the line and through the regulators, then takes two ticks to make it past the valve.

I have seen the mechanics behave in a difference expectation than this.  If there is room while the pump is active for a 500g delivery, it will force that difference into the line just before your valve comes through.  So, you'll constantly flow 500g instead of 500g, pause, 1000g, deliver, 500g, pause... etc.

It will typically only sit on the line to collect more gas (bringing it up to 1000g) if the other line is maximum pressure.  This does have me wonder a bit though.  I may have to go grab a sandbox and poke at it, as I *think* you end up getting a 500g cooling, then a 1000g cooling , then a wait event until it can transition the pressure to the next location in the line.

[Elerius]

I think the most important thing about optimal use of the thermo regulator is to only push hydrogen through it. This is because thermoregulator (and the aquatuner) reduces the temperature of the input medium by a fixed amount: -14 deg K. Therefore you want to push the medium with the highest heat capacity to get the most efficient removal of heat. For gasses, this is hydrogen at 2.4. For liquids: polluted water at 6.

However, the fact that the thermo aquatuner processes 10kg a sec, and the liquid pump pushes 10kg a sec, means that it is MUCH simpler, and way more efficient to cool using only thermo aquatuners. So, if you want to cool gas, snake a radiant pipe through a pool of polluted water, keep the polluted water at the desired temperature with an aquatuner, and don't use thermo regulators at all.

I think thermo regulators are only useful if you want to make something super-cold, such as creating a CO2 freezer, or trying to liquify O2. Other than that, I would stay away from thermo regulators for base cooling. This can't be done with liquids because you end up freezing the medium in the pipe.

Efficiency breakdown.

Regulator:

cooling  H2

2.4 * 1KG * 14K = 33.6 cooling factor

33.6 / 240W = .14 efficiency factor

Aquatuner:

cooling PH20

6 * 10KG * 14K = 840 cooling factor

840 / 1200W = .7 efficiency factor

 

So, even though it takes 5 times as much power to run an aquatuner, it also ends up being 5 times more efficient than running an optimal regulator, and the regulator requires a more complex setup to run at full efficiency.

[chemie]

Radiant pipes basically mean you never should use regulator.  A closed loop h2 system exchanging with a weeze h2 room or aetn uses zero power and does the same thing as regulator.  Radiate pipe h2 cools another radiant pipe of gas you want cooled.  Automate for exact temp setpoint vs fixed temp of regulator.  This is how you can control base to 23.5c if you wanted versus regulator which will drift around and require 14c increments in set point.  Main benefit is zero power cooling of gases.  It does not work for liquids since gases can't cool liquids effectively.

[psusi]

1 hour ago, Elerius said:

So, even though it takes 5 times as much power to run an aquatuner, it also ends up being 5 times more efficient than running an optimal regulator, and the regulator requires more work to run at full efficiency.

Actually it is 60 times more heat transferred for 5 times the power when cooling PH2O compared to hydrogen, since it processes 10x the mass per tick and PH2O has 6x the heat capacity of hydrogen.  And yea, that is what I plan on doing long term this next time around.

[Elerius]

1 minute ago, psusi said:

PH2O has 6x the heat capacity of hydrogen

You seeing that in-game? I was going off of the wiki (which might be out of date), which claims H2 is 2.4 thermal cap. So, I think my math above is correct, it is 5x more efficient to use aqua than regulator.

[Whispershade]

2 hours ago, psusi said:

Obviously a double electrolyzer setup would be best, but if you only have one and limit the flow with a valve, I don't see any way the pump could not keep up with feeding the thermo-regulators a full 1000g packet at a time.  Every tick 500g comes out, and every tick the pump puts in 500g.  Every other tick, a 1000g packet shuffles down the line and through the regulators, then takes two ticks to make it past the valve.

 

I understand completely what you're proposing. And I'm not saying it cannot work. But it requires attention. If a pump ever does not deliver a 500g packet, maybe air pressure from the pump is low, or whatever. Maybe you had a hitch in the system and the line depleted. Then you have to go back and set it up again. That is all I am saying.

Another solution is to use a bunch of bridges in parallel to combine the packets. It does the same thing. Makes sure the packets are 1000g. But you don't have to pay attention to it. It just does its job without limiting the flow of the pipe.

I was just trying offer an alternative that some people have come up with. One that might suit what you're after more effectively without needing the attention required.

3 minutes ago, Elerius said:

You seeing that in-game? I was going off of the wiki (which might be out of date), which claims H2 is 2.4 thermal cap. So, I think my math above is correct, it is 5x more efficient to use aqua than regulator.

No way the thermal capacity of 1kg of hydrogen is a fifth as efficient as 5kg of polluted water. The polluted water should blow the hydrogen out of the 'water'. 60x sounds way more likely.

[psusi]

5 minutes ago, Elerius said:

You seeing that in-game? I was going off of the wiki (which might be out of date), which claims H2 is 2.4 thermal cap. So, I think my math above is correct, it is 5x more efficient to use aqua than regulator.

Oh, I was thinking it was one, but that must be oxygen I was thinking of.  So that's 2.5x more from the higher specific heat, and another x10 from the packet size, for a total of 25x the cooling for 5x the power, or, yea... I see what you meant now... 5x more efficient.