Building a better SPOM

[Megouski]

22 hours ago, Megouski said:

Did some simple math in response to this video. 

I believe you get max 888mg/s from it so thats what, 533Kg a day oxygen and the below?

So after figuring out the below, I also mathed out something else. If you toss another pump and pressure sensor in the space below the upper door, you will get a net gain in watts overall. You will also start producing the max 112mg/s hydrogen, so you will be forced (after a while) to build a second hydrogen generator for the 12mg/s extra netting even higher efficiency and remaining very compact. 2 pumps for air and 2 gens properly set up use an average of 600w but produce an average of 896w. While the classic 1 oxygen pump 1 generator setup produces 505w while using 338w. This is one reason I enjoy games like this. Final note I forgot is the watts used by the water pump. Using roughly 14w for 1 oxygen pump setup and 24w for the 2 pump setup for a net gain of 153w vs. 272w

 

So I did some testing. Sorry im still pretty noob at this game. Id like to see the most compact hydrogen/oxygen power setup possible. Because fun. 

 

So correct me if im wrong but judging by the numbers im seeing for a complete day, they seem to fit the numbers i theorized above. You can see extra power via the Power Wasted, and the oxygen gained. Both fit. Also the pump is pumping at 497~ oxygen or 99.9%+ what it should be. 

The trick now is to add a second pump for oxygen and hook the second generator up and see what happens. 

 

 

So adding the second pump

Results in a jump to 255w free and 477kg oxygen. Still room to improve somehow.

 

[trukogre]

On 7/5/2018 at 5:02 AM, Angpaur said:

Well that is 436,45kg of O2 per cycle, considering there are 2 electrolyzers. Not the performance I was hoping for.

But I will try to experiment with this aproach trying to squeze some more from it.

Also in separate enviroment I will be able to count efficiency ratio.

Thanks for your input.

It's cool that you're trying to optimize for o2 per electrolyzer, even though it's basically pointless, whatever floats your boat.  But you do realize that no one else in the entire world, as far as I know from reading this forum often, is trying to optimize for only that?  If you want other people to analyze your designs while taking your personal goals into mind, then it's only fair for you to extend the same courtesy to others, and evaluate their designs by what they're trying to optimize for.

 

[Evaris]

I personally believe it is both worthwhile to optimize O2 per electrolyzer, though I personally do put a lot of value in power generation per unit of water as well.  It's a balance of the two, for me, when it comes to a "what is an optimal SPOM design?"  bit.  

Also, the physical dimensions of an entire module is yet another consideration as well.  There may be no singular best design out there, but experimentation and testing should come up with some interesting results regardless, so it's quite worthwhile if someone is testing for optimization of O2 production.  

[Angpaur]

4 hours ago, trukogre said:

But you do realize that no one else in the entire world, as far as I know from reading this forum often, is trying to optimize for that?

Well, looks like you missed a very fisrt post in this topic. To me it looks like OP is going after same goals as me. And that is why I posted my design, to give him some inputs and data to compare to and to, as you nicely wrote,  "extend the same courtesy to others, and evaluate their designs by what they're trying to optimize for."

Also have you perform some pooling with the entire world so you are sure to make such statement? Or at least pooling within this forum? I'm not sure if you should be speaking so easily for others.

Do you really think everybody else have same point of view as you? Sounds a bit arrogant to assume so.

[BlueLance]

The only real benefit to a design that can pull the most oxygen from the electrolyzer is space.

Because this is the case most people don't got for an "Optimal" set up because it does not change the result. I wont lie, if I didn't love my current oxygen set up I would try to build a design which keeps my power generation at max and and provides more oxygen, but I like my design  

 

[trukogre]

10 hours ago, Angpaur said:

Well, looks like you missed a very fisrt post in this topic. To me it looks like OP is going after same goals as me. And that is why I posted my design, to give him some inputs and data to compare to and to, as you nicely wrote,  "extend the same courtesy to others, and evaluate their designs by what they're trying to optimize for."

Also have you perform some pooling with the entire world so you are sure to make such statement? Or at least pooling within this forum? I'm not sure if you should be speaking so easily for others.

Do you really think everybody else have same point of view as you? Sounds a bit arrogant to assume so.

You and the OP have both stated your goals in this thread, and they're significantly different, so no, I didn't miss anything.

Have I perform some pooling with the entire world?  Well, looks like you missed...the part of my post that you ended up quoting??? "as far as I know from reading this forum often"  As far as *I* know, not "as far as anyone knows". 

"Do you really think everybody else have same point of view as you? Sounds a bit arrogant to assume so."

No, the entire point of my post was that we should be charitable towards those with different points of view.  You've completely misinterpreted what I was trying to say.

[Evaris]

19 minutes ago, trukogre said:

You and the OP have both stated your goals in this thread, and they're significantly different, so no, I didn't miss anything.

Have I perform some pooling with the entire world?  Well, looks like you missed...the part of my post that you ended up quoting??? "as far as I know from reading this forum often"  As far as *I* know, not "as far as anyone knows". 

"Do you really think everybody else have same point of view as you? Sounds a bit arrogant to assume so."

No, the entire point of my post was that we should be charitable towards those with different points of view.  You've completely misinterpreted what I was trying to say.

I do believe you're misinterpreting me as well.  I'm looking for better designs in any or all categories, whether it's oxygen production, power efficiency, size, or a balance of the three, I am just wanting to experiment and promote others to do the same for the sake of both learning more and the fun of that pursuit.  

So I do think that @Angpaur is pursuing a subset of what I myself am, so thus they are not, in fact, significantly different.  

[trukogre]

3 minutes ago, Evaris said:

I do believe you're misinterpreting me as well.  I'm looking for better designs in any or all categories, whether it's oxygen production, power efficiency, size, or a balance of the three, I am just wanting to experiment and promote others to do the same for the sake of both learning more and the fun of that pursuit.  

So I do think that @Angpaur is pursuing a subset of what I myself am, so thus they are not, in fact, significantly different.  

Yes, I saw that he was pursuing a subset of your goals, but, to me a subset is significantly different   . So you're misinterpreting me as well    And that's all fine, we can all have different opinions and still extend each other the courtesy of respecting each other's goals, which is the only point I'm actually trying to make here.

 

[Megouski]

19 hours ago, trukogre said:

It's cool that you're trying to optimize for o2 per electrolyzer, even though it's basically pointless, whatever floats your boat.  But you do realize that no one else in the entire world, as far as I know from reading this forum often, is trying to optimize for only that?  If you want other people to analyze your designs while taking your personal goals into mind, then it's only fair for you to extend the same courtesy to others, and evaluate their designs by what they're trying to optimize for.

 

Yes, I saw that he was pursuing a subset of your goals, but, to me a subset is significantly different   . So you're misinterpreting me as well    And that's all fine, we can all have different opinions and still extend each other the courtesy of respecting each other's goals, which is the only point I'm actually trying to make here.

 

You do realize you're playing a videogame. Its all basically "pointless" with your attitude. Some people try and challenge themselves though. There is no challenge in letting a electrolyzer just do whatever it wants in open air. We have all done that. Let people have fun, thats the actual point of the game. Also if other people are optimizing based on other things, they are 100% free to make their own threads ----> the door is that way

[trukogre]

41 minutes ago, Megouski said:

You do realize you're playing a videogame. Its all basically "pointless" with your attitude. Some people try and challenge themselves though. There is no challenge in letting a electrolyzer just do whatever it wants in open air. We have all done that. Let people have fun, thats the actual point of the game. Also if other people are optimizing based on other things, they are 100% free to make their own threads ----> the door is that way

Yes, it's all pointless, but some people try to challenge themselves.  That's exactly what I'm trying to say, thank you.  I agree with you 100%, let people have fun.   As to 'free to make their own threads" : the OP is interested in optimizing for a bunch of things, and power is one of them; Angpaur isn't the OP.

It's a bit amusing to me, I keep saying 'this is my main point ....', and people keep responding to me basically arguing against the opposite of my main point.  Are you guys not reading my entire post?

 

[UziMaster]

I echo the sentiment that optimizing for maximum o2 generation per electrolyzer is pointless, at least given the compromises necessary.

Optimizing for power gives you more power for other things, a tangible benefit for most people. Optimizing for space gives you more room to build other things, allows you to build the setup where it would otherwise not fit, and reduces the amount of resources dedicated to the project.

The O2 per electrolyzer optimization provides... what exactly? You could save more raw metal on the electrolyzer, but then I think you have to spend far more on the rest of the setup, plus more power to run it, and more space to put it... It may be a novel thing to do just because, but there is little practical in-game benefit to doing so.

The way he talks about it you'd think you're losing resources by not having the electrolyzer running at max possible capacity, but you don't, in any sense.

[Kabrute]

may I recommend.....

 

Optimized for power and O2

[Nazzy44]

8 hours ago, Kabrute said:

may I recommend.....

 

Optimized for power and O2

 

I looked at your save file and try to study this design but I don't really get how can you filter out hydrogen and oxygen with a bunch of gas bridges and 2 gas valves. I'm a newbie here, would love to hear more explanation for your build!

*edit: I think I get it a bit. Since only 1 type of gas can occupy 1 gas tile, by using the gas valves to circulate and flood the entire loop of a particular gas type, you create a gas filter!!!! That's so cool!

[martosss]

Here's my design of the SPOM tank™:

Efficiency: around 950-1000kg of O2 and 850kW/cycle - 90%, Eletrolyzer usage, around 650 kW consumption including the water pump(Coal generators are auto-stopped by smart batteries), so it self-powers + water pump + ~300-400W of extra energy and utilizes ~90% electrolyzers, which is good enough, I'd say. Not sure if I can suck out more efficiency out of 2 electrolyzers in this size - I'd be happy to see a better approach.

Here it is, for the fun of it... I hope to get bonus points for decor:

Here is the main part of the logic setup:

I use memory + filter gates + atmo sensor to start the top pump for (!!)11 seconds at a time, after which I check if the pressure is higher than (!!)400g. Lower pumps are linked in 2 couples, each activating at pressure above (!!)350g without timers, since they run most of the time. You can add the 10W filter to the top pump just to be on the safe side, although I think I'll skip it and just suck up all the gases and repair a little.

Those (!!) numbers are important for efficiency, because

• You need low pressure to keep the electrolyzers running most of the time
• You need high enough pressure for the pumps to take 500g with each "breath" so that it's power efficient
• When pumps are stopped by Automation, the last packet is usually not 500g, so you want to make sure the pumps are running in long periods of time without stopping, while keeping the low pressure needed for the electrolyzers.
• The distance between pumps-electrolyzers-walls is so that
  • pumps can suck gas longer while keeping the 500g packet size
  • bottom pumps don't suck in hydrogen
• The 4 middle tiles above the electrolyzers, as most of you know, are for filtering O2-H2 in a natural way without using any filter that will hamper Power efficiency of pumps.

To do: solve cooling - I'll probably use ice water for now, as I'm exploring the ice biome at cycle 40 with my 15-16 dupes.

Later if I don't die to heat or starvation or lack of water I might try some more advanced cooling and power generation techniques using hydrogen, but for now I hope snow works.

[Craigjw]

I believe that the reason that the Hydrogen pump delivers packets of 500g, then a final packet with less than 500g, is because the sensor can't be placed directly on the pumps position.  When the pump draws the gas, it creates a zone of lower pressure at the location where the gas is drawn, which takes a finite amount of time for the pressure to equalize over the area and therefore to the sensors position, meaning that by the time the sensor has caught up, it's already too late, the pump has pumped that <500g packet of Hydrogen.

I haven't time to work out the solution right now, but my hypothesis is, that a circuit to cut out the pumps power after a short time, before it can deliver that <500g packet of Hydrogen may work.

Regarding efficiency, are we looking at O2 efficiency, or power efficiency.

If it's O2 efficiency, then the above solution will cause the electrolyzer to have more down time, as there will be slightly higher atmo pressure and lower O2 efficiency,  If however it's power efficiency, then I believe that it's irrelevant how much downtime the electrolyzer has due to over-pressure.  However, it did seem rather O2 efficient, as I was not seeing many packets of O2 that were less than 500g.

 

I played with a few builds and found that the best power efficiency I could get was 3 packets of 500g and a final packet of 300g, using 1 electrolyzer, 2 pumps below and 1 above, this was very reasonable, as the generator was slowly building up a surplus of gas in the intake pipe, despite being active constantly.  What I'm often finding, is that the generator is only active 90% of the time, which doesn't strike me as power efficient.

I will look at a circuit after the weekend if someone else hasn't realized a circuit solution already.

I suspect that a filter with a not gate attached to the output might work for the circuit I proposed.  Just  a guess.

[martosss]

5 hours ago, Craigjw said:

I believe that the reason that the Hydrogen pump delivers packets of 500g, then a final packet with less than 500g, is because the sensor can't be placed directly on the pumps position.

I believe your beliefs are wrong.

• After my pump starts at above 400g, it works for a fixed amount of time, say 10 or 11 seconds, regardless of the following pressure. I have tried playing around with the atmo sensor and the timing. Even if there is a lot of Hydrogen, the pump will almost always screw that last packet, regardless if I put the time at 10 or 15 seconds. So the pressure sensor isn't the problem - the automation turning the pump off is.
• From your point of view, even if the sensor's location is the issue, you can always change the atmo sensor to start pumping at higher pressure. say you start pumping at above 800 instead of 500. Then by the time the pressure at the atmo sensor updates, the pump will still be pumping full packets. However, I doubt this is the case, as I've tried letting it stay at higher pressure and it still pumps that last packet at <500.

BTW someone said that the pump sucks from the bottom left, so you might take that into consideration when coming up with your design.

Regarding Efficiency - I"m trying to optimize both - as close to 100% Ele-up-time(O2 efficiency + max H2 generation) + as few packets under 500g as possible(min lost power in pumping). Those 2 things will give you efficiency in both directions. Automation can be used to control pumps.

The Perfect theoretical setup should be much bigger, though, with probably 5 electrolyzers, 1 H2 pump and 9 O2 pumps running constantly with full packets Even though your H2 pump will not be able to pump 560g/sec, so you need a setup that has so many electrolyzers that their H2 output is divisible by 500 ... that would be 125 electrolyzers Then you only need 28 constantly running H2 pumps and the rest 222 pumping O2, all at 500g.

[PhailRaptor]

5 hours ago, martosss said:

BTW someone said that the pump sucks from the bottom left, so you might take that into consideration when coming up with your design

There was a thread covering this.  Liquid and Gas pumps have a "detection" range that matches their art.  But their actual "effect" range is a plus shape, centered on the top left corner (where the power outlet is).

[DyingCrow]

Im sorry, i have been playing ONI for well over a year, and i have no fukin ides what a SPOM is? Whats with the stupid acronyms?

It could as well be "stealth planned outside masturbation"

[suicide commando]

6 minutes ago, DyingCrow said:

Im sorry, i have been playing ONI for well over a year, and i have no fukin ides what a SPOM is? Whats with the stupid acronyms?

It could as well be "stealth planned outside masturbation"

Self Powered Oxygen Module.

ON that note.. here's my setup:

[DyingCrow]

2 minutes ago, suicide commando said:

Self Powered Oxygen Module.

ON that note.. here's my setup:

Oh. So mine is a SCOM. Needs power from outside sources, but its self cooling.

 

[Evaris]

So, my most efficient O2 uptime build yet;


At 99.66% of maximum O2 production / uptime.  Fits in a two-story area (minus cooling chamber) assuming standard 4-high floors.  19 tile width means you can fit it into a corner of the starting biome too, so it seems decent for someone looking for an all-in-one solution to keeping 25 dupes alive, lol.  About 150 watts overflow, which isn't much, but it's something, at least.  

Swapping the gas filters for hydrogen sensors and gas shutoffs can be done, giving 500 watts overflow, but dropping down the O2 efficiency to 87%, or ~1400kg / day, which isn't ideal.  Both seem to bleed a small amount of hydrogen , it seems, unfortunately. 

A modified version, testing separating the electrolyzer chambers,  

Only slightly reduces the oxygen efficiency, from 99.66% to 98.84% O2 efficiency, while being far more energy efficient, at 271 watts overflow.  

Finally, replacing the gas filters with element sensors + shutoffs Reduces O2 efficiency to 98.5%, but offers just shy of 700 watts overflow, and seems a much better efficiency tradeoff, at the expense of requiring more complex ventilation solutions.

 

48 minutes ago, DyingCrow said:

Im sorry, i have been playing ONI for well over a year, and i have no fukin ides what a SPOM is? Whats with the stupid acronyms?

It could as well be "stealth planned outside masturbation"

If you had read this thread for context in this thread or a number of others, ex: 

 
Or heck, reddit, you would know SPOM is a common acronym for "self powered oxygen module." 

[martosss]

@DyingCrow

• Those 2 filters make it quite energy inefficient. Try substituting them for a logic one or use a mechanical one instead(instant 200W bonus)?
• Also, your system will over-pressure, since top pumps will not have 500g packets all the time => pressure will rise inside the chamber => you're not running at 100% O2 production => you have less O2 to cool down, which is easier.

@Evaris Try averaging those results over a few cycles, i doubt you'll still have 99% O2 generation rates.

[Evaris]

13 minutes ago, martosss said:

@DyingCrow

• Those 2 filters make it quite energy inefficient. Try substituting them for a logic one or use a mechanical one instead(instant 200W bonus)?
• Also, your system will over-pressure, since top pumps will not have 500g packets all the time => pressure will rise inside the chamber => you're not running at 100% O2 production => you have less O2 to cool down, which is easier.

@Evaris Try averaging those results over a few cycles, i doubt you'll still have 99% O2 generation rates.

I did average out the numbers over ten cycles for that first linked build, consistently between 99.4 and 99.7% O2 generation, (resetting background O2 pressure to 1kg each cycle to maintain output average)  power excess was anywhere between ~80 watts overflow to ~220 watts overflow.  

[martosss]

so how do the air pumps manage to pump everything out of the chamber ? The top pump pumps 500g/s even if it's not in 1 packet?

[Evaris]

1 minute ago, martosss said:

so how do the air pumps manage to pump everything out of the chamber ? The top pump pumps 500g/s even if it's not in 1 packet?

Yeah, it seems to stuff multiple ticks of packets together to achieve 500g/s regardless, would be my guess.  Angpaur's SPOM on page 1 has 98.5% efficiency and uses the same over/under configuration.  (I copied the idea from him, tbh.)