All plants should grow in "wild growth" speed if basic conditions are met

[Coolthulhu]

3 hours ago, vovik said:

like it gets rich fertile soil instead of abyssalite

For some reason it rooted itself in abyssalite/snow/ice and not in a fertilizer block. In fact, it doesn't ever seem to spawn rooted in dirt.

Your idea isn't "consistency", it's just subjective sense of realism badly disguised as something it isn't. Consistency would be requiring ice for farm plots used for sleet wheat.

6 hours ago, vovik said:

On the other side of this - before plants were set to grow endlessly there was a whole agriculture upgrade which rewarded players for keeping plants well and fed - like 75 sleet wheat yield

You mean everyone mass planted sleet wheat purposely in planters so that dupes would never fertilize them, then picked huge amounts of lowest grade, 25 sleet wheat drops and completely and absolutely trivialize food production.

No good player fertilized or irrigated wheat (except maybe to show off that it can be done) because it was too much work and not enough gain.

[Yunru]

7 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

You mean everyone mass planted sleet wheat purposely in planters so that dupes would never fertilize them, then picked huge amounts of lowest grade, 25 sleet wheat drops and completely and absolutely trivialize food production.

Yes because it's so trivial to set up.Not like that's a tonne of resources, or cooling. Oh wait...

 

7 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

For some reason it rooted itself in abyssalite/snow/ice and not in a fertilizer block. In fact, it doesn't ever seem to spawn rooted in dirt.

Your idea isn't "consistency", it's just subjective sense of realism badly disguised as something it isn't. Consistency would be requiring ice for farm plots used for sleet wheat.

Except that's not the conditions listed. All plants have specific "wild growth" prerequisites, so the only inconsistent part is that meeting them doesn't allow planted plants to grow.

[Moonshade]

well just reverse it then let plants only grow on tiles where they can naturally get the nutritients from to grow to keep it consistent

[Yunru]

Just now, Moonshade said:

well just reverse it then let plants only grow on tiles where they can naturally get the nutritients from to grow to keep it consistent

They already do. Unless they've planted by a dupe.

What part of "wild growth conditions" do you not get?

[Moonshade]

hah wild growth doesnt take in dirt by meal wood or slime for mushroom as far as i know

[ArunPrasath]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:17 PM, asmallrabbit said:

And? So you might not get a seed from the plant... which is how it worked before. Min tile between plants? Are you kidding me? So now if I want to plant 35 mealwood plants for 10 dupes I would need 70 tiles?

The all or nothing growth for plants was a design decision to prevent people from setting up massive farms with wild growth and ignoring farming requirements. And it makes sense. If you try and grow your own plant, it requires more care then if its growing naturally in its own environment. Its not going to grow in an artificial environment without proper care. 

You guys are basically suggesting farming revert to pre agriculture update, which they ended up changing because it didn't work. What don't you get about this?

If you broaden your small mind a bit more, pincha plants can require 5 tiles radius. Sleet wheat can require 5 tiles too. Combine those with 32, 72 growth cycles, you'll effectively nerf the benefits. You'll find it very difficult to even feed 1 dupe per cycle like this.

In case you still don't get it, look at this pic:

That's a huge amount of space for just 5 sleet wheat plants.You'll need 40 plants to give a supply of just 10 seeds per cycle.

You need 8 pincha plants to supply 1000g of pincha pepper per cycle.

Totally 48 * 6 tiles (adding plant tile too) * 4 tile height (1 tile ground/ceiling) = 1152 tiles just for feeding a single duple. Which takes horizontally ~288 tiles. So for feeding just 4 dupes consistently for free, you'll need a hell lot of space! Digging through all those tiles for placing plants will take forever.

And considering the movement time required during harvest as well as the space it'll take inside your map., it'll effectively nerf the perk.

The developers can easily increase the spacing for nerfing this even more.

[asmallrabbit]

2 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

If you broaden your small mind a bit more, pincha plants can require 5 tiles radius. Sleet wheat can require 5 tiles too. Combine those with 32, 72 growth cycles, you'll effectively nerf the benefits. You'll find it very difficult to even feed 1 dupe per cycle like this.

In case you still don't get it, look at this pic:

That's a huge amount of space for just 5 sleet wheat plants.You'll need 40 plants to give a supply of 10 just seeds per cycle.

You need 8 pincha plants to supply 1000g of pincha pepper per cycle.

Totally 44 *5 tiles * 3 tile height = 660 tiles just for feeding a single duple. Which takes horizontally ~190 tiles. So for feeding just 4 dupes consistently for free, you'll need a LOT of space! Digging through all those tiles for placing plants will take forever.

And considering the movement time required during harvest as well as the space it'll take inside your map., it'll effectively nerf the perk.

The developers can easily increase the spacing for nerfing this even more.

Don't start insulting people because they don't like your suggestion or it makes no sense. I'm not going to bother responding to you anymore.

[Coolthulhu]

14 hours ago, Yunru said:

Yes because it's so trivial to set up.Not like that's a tonne of resources, or cooling. Oh wait..

You don't know what you're talking about. Most difficulty with cooling comes from warm inputs, which you want to eliminate in a quest for easy mode food.

[Yunru]

23 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

You don't know what you're talking about. Most difficulty with cooling comes from warm inputs, which you want to eliminate in a quest for easy mode food.

Sure I don't. After all, how could I comprehend the mind of a genius that says setting up a complex system for getting the necessary resources to cool and house the amount of plants needed to rival the growth rates of a fraction of the number is tribal?

[Coolthulhu]

13 hours ago, Yunru said:

Sure I don't. After all, how could I comprehend the mind of a genius that says setting up a complex system for getting the necessary resources to cool and house the amount of plants needed to rival the growth rates of a fraction of the number is tribal?

It's simple if you actually can do basic math. I will use language that you should understand:

Water carry lots, lots heat - it hard to cool. It also go "poof" all time and then need new cooled water. Air not carry lots heat and it not need replace.

 

Also, your baseless speculations could work if there were no players who still remember Agricultural update. In Agricultural, there was no heat transfer from water in hydroponics, no radiant pipes, lower pipe-air heat transfer, plants spawned at 20C at 400kg (or so) mass, and cooling air was much harder in general while cooling water was not needed. And yet the optimal strategy that all good players employed was to create rows of slow-growing, low yield sleet wheat. This is exactly what would happen here.

[Yunru]

1 minute ago, Coolthulhu said:

And yet the optimal strategy that all good players employed was to create rows of slow-growing, low yield sleet wheat. This is exactly what would happen here.

And... that's a problem? You're talking about a high-level, end-game project (or starvation in between), as if it's existence is a problem.

[vovik]

Well, if you remember that plants take 4 times longer to grow in wild condition then request for allowing wild growth in farm tiles/pots is completely rational

[Coolthulhu]

10 hours ago, Yunru said:

And... that's a problem? You're talking about a high-level, end-game project (or starvation in between), as if it's existence is a problem.

The problem is it's not an endgame thing, but something you'd start doing at early midgame and end in early lategame

• Dig into ice biome
• Harvest existing plants
• Make gorillion plots
• Plant gorillion seeds
• Harvest 18 gorillion wheats
• Consume forever

All of that is doable before the ice biome heats up, even if you don't cool it.

Even with 4x growing time increase, the only problem is that you need to wait longer for the first drop. After that, you just need to treat the average drops as 25% of usual value, meaning you need 4x as many plots.

Note that setting up the massive plantation is not a lot of work and it is mostly automatic once you set it up. You only need to build it, seed it, harvest it, and at some time (later, when the biome starts melting) add a cooling loop. At this point you most likely have enough spare hydrogen to fill it, enough metal to build those radiant pipes, and enough spare power to have it run most of the day.

[vovik]

1 hour ago, Coolthulhu said:

Note that setting up the massive plantation is not a lot of work and it is mostly automatic once you set it up. You only need to build it, seed it, harvest it, and at some time (later, when the biome starts melting) add a cooling loop. At this point you most likely have enough spare hydrogen to fill it, enough metal to build those radiant pipes, and enough spare power to have it run most of the day.

So what? people have tonns of metal sitting there taking space, it is not a a problem here.

So, problem is with plant growing consistency, its not that hard to get food, requirements are not that high. Its annoying when plants stop growing at all when something is not met - its a consistency problem and that keeps bugging me and not only me every time.

Also why do devs intend players to play in one way or another? Give players tools and allow them to play as they want dammit.

[Coolthulhu]

1 hour ago, vovik said:

Its annoying when plants stop growing at all when something is not met - its a consistency problem and that keeps bugging me and not only me every time.

Also why do devs intend players to play in one way or another? Give players tools and allow them to play as they want dammit.

The only actual solution to the consistency problem is removing wild plants. So far no one suggested anything better than that.

It's not a good choice to give to players:

• Hard mode that requires careful balancing (by devs) and engineering (by players)
• Ezmode no maintenance free food forever without effort

Choices are only actually choices when they have comparable results. When one "choice" is obviously better, there is no choice, only the better option (and noob trap for new/bad players). If you want free food, use debug mode.

[vovik]

1 hour ago, Coolthulhu said:

It's not a good choice to give to players:

• Hard mode that requires careful balancing (by devs) and engineering (by players)
• Ezmode no maintenance free food forever without effort

Ezmode is not ezmode actually - more space os a bummer, and a trap as building 12!  plants per duplicant is quite much - 48 tiles?

But lets say that plants need tend from time to time when in pots/farm tiles? Then wild growth is acceptable as it will take more duplicant time and lots of space - a hidden trap to people that want to grow lots of plants without water or whatever.

[Yunru]

1 hour ago, vovik said:

Ezmode is not ezmode actually - more space os a bummer, and a trap as building 12!  plants per duplicant is quite much - 48 tiles?

But lets say that plants need tend from time to time when in pots/farm tiles? Then wild growth is acceptable as it will take more duplicant time and lots of space - a hidden trap to people that want to grow lots of plants without water or whatever.

Don't. Just don't bother arguing with him. You'll have more luck getting blood from a rock than getting him to realise how flawed his assumption is.

[Moonshade]

well for dupe time to to increase to such an amount that it ain't worth while there needs to be quite some space between them. since 1 dupe only needs to harvest 1.7 mealwood plants in a cycle just to maintain it's own food supply it's easy cause you just take in a dupe let it harvest those 1.7 and everything it does extra that cycle is bonus, well if you consider the fact they need o2 too then say 3.4 plants each cycle so it can feed it's friend that does oxygen production. though i guess at some point other things might get more viable.

( there still needs to be 12 plant for each dupe they only need to harvest that many each cycle  maximum travel distance from ceter farm is 24)

and then there is the athletic ability that makes dupes quite fast once they max out.  though that's a late game thing i guess.

The added space needed does make it way harder to regulate the temperature and presure over the entire farm.

also adding the space requirement makes those early wild growth plots you find when you start the game currently non functionable since they tend to be stacked together at the moment. lots of changes for a bit of this.

might be better to just get rid of wild growth alltogether if you want consistency,

But how did those plants you first encountered even got planted? consistency is only available as a reason if you exactly know how those plants came to be since we don't know we can't say much about it. for all we know it was planted by a highly advanced alien doing some experiments on dupes now, which altered those seeds a bit but their offspring is just the normal mealwood. (we do have something simliar on earth too we cross some trees with bushes to get them to grow the produce lower but their ofspring results in the regular former trees)

[Coolthulhu]

6 hours ago, Yunru said:

Don't. Just don't bother arguing with him. You'll have more luck getting blood from a rock than getting him to realise how flawed his assumption is.

Yeah, such a flawed assumption - that things will not magically become totally different from what they were proven to be.

You still haven't provided a single actual reason for why things would change from Agricultural. Your flawed assumption that people are like you and won't figure out the best option, isn't enough to convince anyone smarter than you.

8 hours ago, vovik said:

Ezmode is not ezmode actually - more space os a bummer, and a trap as building 12!  plants per duplicant is quite much - 48 tiles?

But lets say that plants need tend from time to time when in pots/farm tiles? Then wild growth is acceptable as it will take more duplicant time and lots of space - a hidden trap to people that want to grow lots of plants without water or whatever.

It's not. The build time is only 4x as much as building a "fueled" farm.

Once you optimize it (requires cooling) every sleet wheat plant takes only 3 tiles (+flat cost of ~sqrt(plants) for boundary). Since you no longer need irrigation, you can afford to use much cheaper components too - and those build much faster.

Sleet wheat produces 18 wheat after 18 cycles, so you need 2.5 wheat per dupe. 10 if wild. 50 tiles (very pessimistic variant) per dupe is not a huge cost, considering it's an one-time investment that only requires small amount of power afterwards. You certainly have that excess space, even for 50 dupes. The permanent per-cycle saving on labor time that would go to grooming critters otherwise is well worth it.

[Yunru]

I rest my case.