Water synthesis

[Mabnite]

Since water is the most precious commodity in the game, perhaps some contraption could be implemented to synthetize it from CO2 and H2 at high costs ?

A common existing reaction of methane production is this :

CO2 + 4H2 ---high temperature, catalyst (copper oxide) ---> CH4 + 2H2O

So carbon dioxide (CO2) and hydrogen(H2) could be recycled in water(h2O) with some massive machine,

producing polluted oxygen (methane),

at the cost of

  -a good amount of power,

  -lots of heat,

  -and a very small but regular copper supply (a catalyst doesn't get consumed by the reaction, but a small amount is always lost in the end products, so it fits with reality in some way).

Copper is a common resource early game, this could add a challenge by making it essential for long term survival. This could give interesting combination with electrolysis contraptions, heat and power management, and forced supply of copper by dupes who would have to be exposed to significant heat once in a while.

With some drawbacks to avoid making it cheesy, it could be some good addition for long term gameplay ? What do you think ?

[blash365]

Methane would be Natural Gas.

[Mabnite]

You're right, too obvious, not a good solution...

[ArunPrasath]

So by this method, we need 6+8*2 = 22g of CO2 and 8g of Hydrogen to produce 10g of Natural Gas and 20g of water.

Its actually a great idea!

When looking at the equation initially, I felt 4H2 will be too much hydrogen and I was like where to go for that much hydrogen.

But when considered volumetrically, its quite great.

This will create a sustainable method to create oxygen from Dupe's CO2 and excess H2 from electrolyser+geyser.

This sort of mandates there should be one H2 Geyser in the map for optimal usage though.

If we have some sort of equation to clean off chlorine, I'd be extremely happy! Like Sandstone+Chlorine+water = bleach stone.

And since we'll create lot of bleach stone now, should use bleach stone to purify polluted water. 

[BlueLance]

20 hours ago, Mabnite said:

CO2 + 4H2 ---high temperature, catalyst (copper oxide) ---> CH4 + 2H2O

Forgive me if I am rusty with science, isnt 2H2O heavy water?

[Mabnite]

2 hours ago, BlueLance said:

Forgive me if I am rusty with science, isnt 2H2O heavy water?

In this equation it means that 2 molecules of H2O are produced with 1 molecule of CO2 and 4 molecules of H2. The heavy water you mean is made with deuterium wrtten ²H, but i've seen it written 2H on the internet due to some typographic limitation i think ?

 

3 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

So by this method, we need 6+8*2 = 22g of CO2 and 8g of Hydrogen to produce 10g of Natural Gas and 20g of water.

Its actually a great idea!

When looking at the equation initially, I felt 4H2 will be too much hydrogen and I was like where to go for that much hydrogen.

But when considered volumetrically, its quite great.

This will create a sustainable method to create oxygen from Dupe's CO2 and excess H2 from electrolyser+geyser.

This sort of mandates there should be one H2 Geyser in the map for optimal usage though.

If we have some sort of equation to clean off chlorine, I'd be extremely happy! Like Sandstone+Chlorine+water = bleach stone.

And since we'll create lot of bleach stone now, should use bleach stone to purify polluted water. 

Hehe yeah, that's why i wrote to blash that it was not a good idea, it's obvious that CH4 is natural gas and not polluted oxygen, you can't go so far with reality distortion without angering some players. So this machine would not only give water and purify air, but even be power-free for the cost of only some copper at a very low rate... It's kind of ideal but it kind of breaks the game tension, even if you wil get a shortage of copper at some point ... and in theory, as a catalyst, the copper should'nt even be consumed...

[ImpalerWrG]

More commonly D2O (D for Deuterium) is how heavy water is written.

With regard to this reaction it is called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

It dose not actually consume any energy as it is an exothermic reaction, the energy of Hydrogen is quite high and it is the power source.

The problem is that Natural gas in ONI has more energy then Hydrogen with Hydrogen yielding 8J/g and Methane 13J/g in their respective generators.  In reality Hydrogen should produce 2.5x more then Methane.  In a real Sabatier reaction the output Methane has only half the total energy as was in the Hydrogen despite being slightly higher in mass.

But in ONI a stociometricly correct Sabatier would actually literally DOUBLE your potential energy generation from a given quantity of Hydrogen by first turning it into Methane.  To correct this we would need to do one of the following, lower Natural gas generator Wattage to 180W, or increase its consumption to 270 g/s, or a combination of the two such as 400W and 125 g/s.  Not sure if that would kill the Natural Gas generator as a viable power source though.

[ImpalerWrG]

Alternativly one could use the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosch_reaction

Which is CO2 + 2H2 -> C + 2H2O

C here would normally be graphite but we would get coal instead (really coal in game should just be called graphite anyways)

This process is also exothermic, but it dose not present the excess energy problem described above because of the very low energy value of coal at just 0.6J/g

So to modify the earlier example 22g of CO2 and 4g of Hydrogen produce 6g of Coal and 20g of water.

The Coal now has only 3.6J vs the 32J that the Hydrogen had so the reaction has an opportunity cost of 1.4J/g water produced.

[Flydo]

On 23/05/2018 at 7:50 PM, Mabnite said:

Since water is the most precious commodity in the game, perhaps some contraption could be implemented to synthetize it from CO2 and H2 at high costs ?

A common existing reaction of methane production is this :

CO2 + 4H2 ---high temperature, catalyst (copper oxide) ---> CH4 + 2H2O

A little more common reaction with hydrogen is H2+ O2 + sparkle ---> A big kaboom + H2O

[linainverse]

IIRC graphite contains clay and is not pure carbon like coal.

 

this reaction TC mentioned is too simple and is not leading to bugs so it won't be included in the game.

 

P.S. We have enough heaters, so i don't want the "lots of heat" device perk. devs never make our gaming easier.

[ImpalerWrG]

Pencil 'lead' is a mixture of graphite and clay, real graphite is pure carbon.

[Capitainefada]

On 23/05/2018 at 7:50 PM, Mabnite said:

Since water is the most precious commodity in the game, perhaps some contraption could be implemented to synthetize it from CO2 and H2 at high costs ?

 

 

There is already a water creation cycle in ONI:

- 1 kg Crude Oil + Magma => 1 kg Natural Gaz
- 1 Kg Natural Gaz +  Natural Gas Generator => 1.375g CO2 + 1.125 PH2O
- 1.375 CO2 + Molten Slichster => 1.375 kg Crude Oil

it is a challenge at the end of the game, very difficult (it is necessary to cool the gas before treating it) more difficult than simply collecting resources (even rare) and building a building.
 

[Mabnite]

On 26/05/2018 at 4:05 AM, Flydo said:

A little more common reaction with hydrogen is H2+ O2 + sparkle ---> A big kaboom + H2O

Exactly.

On the 'systemic side' it wouldn't fit with electrolysis though (only source of H2 ?)

 

On 25/05/2018 at 2:11 AM, ImpalerWrG said:

Alternativly one could use the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosch_reaction

Which is CO2 + 2H2 -> C + 2H2O

 

Yup pretty easy to make water IRL...

 

On 30/05/2018 at 6:21 PM, Capitainefada said:

 

There is already a water creation cycle in ONI:

- 1 kg Crude Oil + Magma => 1 kg Natural Gaz
- 1 Kg Natural Gaz +  Natural Gas Generator => 1.375g CO2 + 1.125 PH2O
- 1.375 CO2 + Molten Slichster => 1.375 kg Crude Oil

it is a challenge at the end of the game, very difficult (it is necessary to cool the gas before treating it) more difficult than simply collecting resources (even rare) and building a building.
 

Very nice ! Pointless topic, thanks for the demonstration, I'll try that.

 

[Flydo]

On 05/06/2018 at 1:31 AM, Mabnite said:

Yup pretty easy to make water IRL...

 

a reaction at about 700 °C, not so easy , i build some prototype for work at high temperature and I can tell you that pass 600 °C it's a challenge to find a material that didn't oxyde with oxygen near to it

[Alfons100]

An 'Alchemical' update where reactions between gas, solids, and liquids can happen. Depending on temperature/pressure to make new resources would be a great idea. Also adds more simple physical puzzles to getting resources instead of simply a machine that does one thing when fed the resources.

[Mabnite]

On 06/06/2018 at 6:56 PM, Flydo said:

On 05/06/2018 at 1:31 AM, Mabnite said:

 

a reaction at about 700 °C, not so easy , i build some prototype for work at high temperature and I can tell you that pass 600 °C it's a challenge to find a material that didn't oxyde with oxygen near to it

Perhaps a stupid suggestion : max out the pressure locally with a jet system for O2, preserving it from high temperatures on the way, the other reagent being superheated on the other side ? (the high pressure jet avoiding the problems of material contact)

(Just saying, there are surely lots of technical and thermodynamic limitations preventing this kind of contraption from working...)