Technoincubus Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 What is the point of RNG dupes when you just roll till you get right ones? It's like RimWorld, where the most popular mod is Prepare Carefully, which allows you to cuztomize your colonists based on point system to balance positive traits with negative ones. Because now everyone I know who plays Oxygen Not Included do the same - start, then waste about 5-10 minutes on rolling required dupes. Someone don't like stats, someone don't like certain appearances. in the end players will get what they want but with more needless and annoying routine. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangrove Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 A point system would be really welcome, I expect a mod like that will pop up sooner or later. I would also like to see some more variety in the traits for more interesting decision-making. It's kinda useless when one trait is better than all the others, you'll just build the same dupe over and over again. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarquan Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I think you should be able to use a custom rpg-style point setup could be interesting, but the random button should still be there. I was thinking of a challenge where you must take the original 3 dupes and can only select the first dupe. I think the point is to discourage people from trying to get the utter optimal dupe. Either you settle or you wait. This idea makes sense except people are willing to keep rerolling. If they want randomness to be a factor, they should give us a list of, say, 20 dupes and let us pick 3. I think people are less willing to start a new game every time they don't like the list than they are willing to click a rerandomize button. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 22 minutes ago, Technoincubus said: then waste about 5-10 minutes on rolling required dupes. Someone don't like stats, someone don't like certain appearances. Sounds like custom selection to me. Problem with the random stats has always been conflicts between traits and skill bonuses. Honestly a point based system won't make much sense to someone never having played the game. It sounds like a feature that might best be added to the custom game type - for people who know how to play that want to customize their starting dupes. Technically speaking, this would only happen once in game play and it's not surprising that a feature like this would fall far down on the list of things to do. Right now, random dupes are random for everyone, and they're random when they become available. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangrove Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said: Honestly a point based system won't make much sense to someone never having played the game. It sounds like a feature that might best be added to the custom game type - for people who know how to play that want to customize their starting dupes. The way RPG's solved this issue is adding a couple of presets to choose from. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mangrove said: The way RPG's solved this issue is adding a couple of presets to choose from. That, would be easy to implement using the tier 1 or 2 job requirements + associated beneficial skills. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vim Razz Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Random dupes are fun. They add an element of risk that keeps things from getting too repetitive and boring. There aren't that many obstacles or surprises in this game, otherwise. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, Vim Razz said: Random dupes are fun. They add an element of risk that keeps things from getting too repetitive and boring. No, they add an element of tedium of pressing "reroll" and "reject" button over and over because you keep getting mouthbreathing Meeps and anemic Nisbets. You don't need to recruit dupes fast, so there is no risk of delaying new dupes. Unless you're playing "The Rock" (second Helicona), recruiting new dupes is only really useful for player convenience, because you only really need to do things fast when you have a lot of dupes. There is no cost to pressing "reroll" or "reject", other than player annoyance. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vim Razz Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said: No, they add an element of tedium of pressing "reroll" and "reject" button over and over because you keep getting mouthbreathing Meeps and anemic Nisbets. Speak for yourself, dude. Those sorts of debilitating weaknesses are what create the challenges that entertain me most at this point. There's nothing quite like getting a binge eater in your starting three on Fatalistic to make you really wonder if you're going to be able to keep your colony alive this time around. If that's not your thing, then you appear to be in good company in this thread, but not everyone is going to feel the same way. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangrove Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 No problems, a point system could still have a randomize/surprise me button Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maciej75 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I also avoid rerolling, as challenge is to save all people regardless of their usefulness (and race and collor...). But I want rerolling button to stay - I have one weakness, I like to have slightly more girls then boys... But I see no problem in people exploting this system. Its like using Wheezwort in base - some people can not handle challanges, they are just using games to confirm their self-esteem. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 16 minutes ago, Vim Razz said: There's nothing quite like getting a binge eater in your starting three on Fatalistic to make you really wonder if you're going to be able to keep your colony alive this time around. I haven't played on anything easier than fatalistic+weak (or however is the hardest immunity setting named) since the option was added. Doing challenges way harder than harmless binge eaters (even vomiters are harder - they can vomit themselves to starvation even with food around). Challenges have nothing to do with tediously rerolling starting dupes to get the best/worst ones. You could get anemic mouthbreathers with point system just fine. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangrove Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 A point system could of course also be used to make the most miserable dupes possible for a challenge Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottFree Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 What's the point of random map gen? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maciej75 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Some other "city/country" builder games (AFAIR Civilization, the Queen of Genre), defined some "points" that rates victory level when game ended. It included difficulty settings, things build, units lost, winning condition. So it would be Ok to have free choice of Dupes, if any reroll, reject or manual selection is just shown on such statement, subtracting some points. So e.g. hard game with manually chosen dupes is still better then normal with random, but random wins over manual choice on equal levels. Its “to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment" for taking challenges. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vim Razz Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said: Challenges have nothing to do with tediously rerolling starting dupes to get the best/worst ones. You could get anemic mouthbreathers with point system just fine Setting up challenges on purpose isn't the same as having them pop into your game unexpectedly. That ruins the surprise. I have no doubt that you're more familiar with this game than I am, considering the level of expertise you routinely demonstrate around here, but you seem to be missing the point entirely in this case. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-998994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhailRaptor Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 23 minutes ago, Vim Razz said: Setting up challenges on purpose isn't the same as having them pop into your game unexpectedly. That ruins the surprise. It's a false surprise, though. You are actively choosing to keep those 3 starter Dupes, instead of Rerolling them. You are also then choosing to select 1 of 3 Dupes each time the Printer is primed, instead of Rejecting all of them. You're still making a choice to keep them. What you are really asking about is not implemented in the game (fully random Dupes, where you are dropped straight into the world with 3 random Dupes, and every time the Printer is ready it produces a random Dupe without giving you the option to reject, and without waiting for you to select one). More power to you if that's how you want to play. But just because YOU want to play that way doesn't mean EVERYONE has to. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vim Razz Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 30 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said: It's a false surprise, though... Sure, but I'll take what I can get, and enjoy what I can for what it's worth 38 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said: What you are really asking about is... You have failed miserably at reading my mind. I'm not asking for anything, nor does the specific scenario you presented sound particularly engaging. Playing with arbitrary quirks that provide random challenges is not the same as playing in a straight jacket. 31 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said: But just because YOU want to play that way doesn't mean EVERYONE has to. Of course not. All I did was share my thoughts on why I enjoy having random starting dupes. (Or colonists in Rimworld, for that matter. I never reroll those, either.) I'm not setting the rules, or telling you (or anyone) how to play the game. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technoincubus Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 With custom dupe system you can make weak dupes for challenge instead of ROLLING for weak dupes. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breizhbugs Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 If dupe were really "duplicant", they should all be the same at the beginning. Its How we use them that should make them become different in their stats... (for exemple, considering progressing stats, when above 10, they become marked by their job) working as miner should made them become mouth breather because of dust working as researcher should make them anemic, because lack of sport. .... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfinite Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I've also thought about this, and I agree a point system would be welcome. However with the most recent change in the preview build we're back to having learning the only skill that matters. So a points system when rolling dupes would mean everyone puts everything in learning every time. Doing anything else is just really inefficient. I currently just roll until I have three dupes with 6+ learning. If I'm forced to take a dupe with low learning at a later point then I set that dupe as the only one that can research just so that all their other skill increases faster. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottFree Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Dupes aren't machines. Point buy skills will cause people to make their starting dupes the same every time thus, turning them into machines. Dupes are abstractions of humans. They have strengths and weaknesses. They will be slightly different from each other and between games. This primarily increases the replayability of the game but it is a form of challenge too. Dupes will have some traits that require solutions (loud sleeper, small bladder, weak immune system) or benefits that make tasks much easier. Allowing players to set stats means the dupes will be more predictable. This has long ranging implications because the bulk of the game is catering to duplicants. So, players can start to make their bases more predictable. Which leads to even the number of duplicants used more predictable. Knowing exactly what to expect in productivity means players can play the same way with little variation and leads to optimal playstyles. This isn't intended by the design of the game and takes away from the unique experience of each player. If people will pick their dupes the same way as other people, it will make their bases and experiences the same. These playstyles may not be the most optimal in reality but enabling stat setting makes that kind of reproduction possible. Even if people build in the same manner now, the uniqueness of duplicants and map generation will still keep the game varied. So, rolling dupes isn't fun. Rolling dupes is not designed or intended to be fun. Its a feature when picking dupes. If you don't want to roll for optimal stats, don't. The game entirely playable randomly. You chose a boring way to play. Rolling is no different than shuffling cards or rolling dice and those things have been around for a long time. It is specifically to introduce randomness into games and people what to remove that. Just play factorio if you want everything to predictable and controllable. ONI is not that kind of game. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 24 minutes ago, ScottFree said: Dupes aren't machines. Point buy skills will cause people to make their starting dupes the same every time thus, turning them into machines. Dupes are abstractions of humans. They have strengths and weaknesses. They don't, because only a very tiny selection of stats and traits matter. There are dupes with strengths and there are those with weaknesses, rarely both at once. 25 minutes ago, ScottFree said: Dupes will have some traits that require solutions (loud sleeper, small bladder, weak immune system) or benefits that make tasks much easier. They will not, because you can reject those who suck. ie. destructives, mouth breathers, anemics, narcoleptics and so on. There is pretty much never a reason to accept those, because lack of point system means they do not have anything to outweigh the cost. If narcoleptic mouthbreather Meeps had trillion points to distribute over stats, this wouldn't be the case. Then your idea about dupes having strengths and weaknesses wouldn't be just wishful thinking but reality. People here keep pretending ONI is like Rimworld, where you either accept a misfit or reject them and take the risk of not having enough characters. It isn't the case. Here you are guaranteed to be offered more characters and the only risk you have is exhaustion of common resources, which happens much faster if you don't go all nazi with eugenics. At least Klei isn't forcing us to commit euthanasia on the misfits by forcibly spawning them. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
watermelen671 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 16 hours ago, ScottFree said: What's the point of random map gen? The point of a random map gen is cost-saving really. It takes much less money to have a randomly generated world with certain guidelines. Whilst on the flip side it take a whole lot more money (and time, which equals more money that they have to pay the devs) to individually craft each world to be unique and have completely different set pieces. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozinator Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 18 hours ago, Maciej75 said: subtracting some points. Yeah! Subtract from what? Better subtract from thin air.. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87051-what-is-the-point-of-random-starting-dupes/#findComment-999249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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