Does electrolyzer + Hydrogen Generator still work well in automation upgrade?

[Venus3869]

I just started playing right after the automation upgrade, and I've been trying to use the hydrogen generator to make us of the electrolyzer's output but I just cannot seem to make this even a little efficient.  Even with a steady stream of hydrogen the generator only produces good power when I first set is up then it doesn't even produce enough to power the gas pump and filter to it. I've tried a few different set ups that seem to predate automation upgrade like encasing the pump and electrolyzer in a room. Currently I'm using a peak in my base to collect the hydrogen and set up everything at the top but I end up with a dupe on a hamster wheel to power the pump unless i set up coal or something to power it.

What am I doing wrong or did it change a bit?

[OfficialLolicon]

You need to clump up the hydrogen first, using them in little amounts can't sustain even liquid pump.. Can't send a pic how but it's still efficient if use properly.

[GuyPerfect]

In practice, it's not terribly easy to simply run an Electrolyzer and route all of the Hydrogen it produces to a Hydrogen Generator. I'm sure it can be done, but I like to keep things as compact as possible, and I've settled on this setup:

      

Okay, so it's a bit cluttered. Lemme break it down:

• I have other forms of power production in use. This Hydrogen Generator and Power Transformer are hooked directly into my backbone circuit.
• Electrolyzer outputs a total of 1000 g of gas per second. A Gas Pump and Gas Pipes can move 500 g of gas per second, hence doubling up on the Pumps and Gas Filters.
• For maintenance purposes, the left Signal Switch controls the Electrolyzer and the right Signal Switch controls the Gas Pumps.
• Add Wheezeworts to taste for temperature moderation.
• The Filters select Hydgrogen, of course. Both outputs from both Filters are mixed inside of Gas Bridges.

Next comes the metrics:

• Gas Pump consumes 240 W of power
• Gas Filter consumes 120 W of power
• Electrolyzer consumes 120 W of power and produces 112 g/s of Hydrogen and 888 g/s of Oxygen.
• Hydrogen Generator consumes 100 g/s of Hydrogen to produce 800 W of power

This machine's total power consumption is 840 W, and with just the one Hydrogen Generator, its maximum power production is only 800 W. In practice, it isn't running 100% of the time, but it's fairly close to 100% uptime. Hypothetically, you can get 896 W of power production by hooking up two Hydrogen Generators, but again, in practice it doesn't really work out that way. There's various reasons for this, and I tried this setup with a two-tile-high chamber, but I've gotten the best results out of what you see here.

In the end, it still has a net impact on power consumption, so I continue to run my other generators off in the distance somewhere. But it costs less on average to run this setup than a single Algae Deoxylizer, and produces more than enough Oxygen to over-pressurize my entire map, so that makes me happy.

[trukogre]

You can make a lot more power than guyperfect's setup by taking advantage of oxygen diffusion and valving.  An electrolyzer sitting in your base is overpressurized half the time, so you need at least 2 electrolyzers each working only half the time, which costs the same power/water as one ideal electrolyzer.  Then, add a valve on your output(oxygen) from your gas filter on the top of your base, set to like 50g/s. Without this your gas pump is working all the time, which is a waste of capacity and power, since it can move 500 g/s and your hydrogen generator only needs 100g/s.  Ideally, your gas pump is sitting in hydrogen, pumping 500g/s of hydrogen 20% of the time, which will keep your hydrogen generator going and cut your power from the gas pump and filter by 80%.  Theoretically this should make 800 W, and cost 120 W + (240 W + 120 W) * .2 = 192 Watts, leaving you with 608 watts net. your base currently is a bit uneven so you might be catching hydrogen in places for quite a while, which will hurt your power production, and you might need a third electrolyzer to reach 1 ideal electrolyzer equivalent as well.  The benefit of guyperfect's setup is that it is compact and with active pumping of oxygen will more easily reach higher average oxygen pressure in your base.

[PhailRaptor]

The thing about the Hydrogen Generator is that you can't depend on it as a reliable power source.  It's not even entirely reliable using it to create a self-powered Oxygen supply.  The system is prone to "spiking", where it burns through all the Hydrogen all at once, then can't maintain a charge long enough for the supply of Hydrogen to replenish sufficiently to continue.

The long and short of it is that you don't use the Hydrogen Generator for Power production, but rather to eliminate excess Hydrogen.  The Power it produces is simply a "nice to have" byproduct.

[trukogre]

Different methods of valving and lengths of buffer pipe can mitigate the spikiness of hydrogen power production, but it's certainly true that compared to other power production methods hydrogen power tends to be more spiky.  If one were deadset on making hydrogen power less spiky, perhaps for some "no carbon power" challenge game, one could even bleed off 20% of the hydrogen captured into a storage tank, and then activate a pump in that tank using one of saturnus's battery sensors, for truly robust spikiness mitigation.  Very little is impossible in the game, just usually there are easier ways to accomplish the same result.

[The Flying Fox]

As @trukogre suggested, a diffusion setup will net you the most efficient setup.  Anything in ONI will use full power regardless of the amount of 'stuff' they're moving around.  (Gases or liquids)  So, its always best to design your pump setups so that they take in full amounts of gas every second, which is 500 Grams/Second.  Hooking the pumps to atmo-switches set to around 400 Grams typically works fine.

Here's my particular setup.  Produces plenty of O2 (More then I need) and plenty of Hydrogen.  In fact, it produces a quite steady amount of Hydrogen to the point that during more of the start of the base, the hydrogen generator pretty much covers most of what I need for power with some topping up with a manual generator.  I rarely touch coal generators.

 

 

[Venus3869]

This was helpful!! Thanks! I i think i have it working efficiently now, I'm not entirely sure I  understand it but it works. I'm not great at physics but this game is so fun.

[Technoincubus]

why are you using pressure switches? To start pumping only when only hydrogen is there and prevent oxygen mixing up?

[The Flying Fox]

11 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

why are you using pressure switches? To start pumping only when only hydrogen is there and prevent oxygen mixing up?

More or less.  

1)  They provide me more direct control over the pumps.  I could quickly shut them off by adjusting the switches.

2)  More importantly, they ensure the pumps only run when there's enough O2 and Hydrogen near the pump, which saves power, and also helps keep the O2 and Hydrogen from mixing.  Although, with the design of the machine, it's nearly impossible for O2 to get stuck in the top chamber and hasn't happened since I've set it up.  The pressure switches on the Electrolyzers are there, just in case, if there's an over-production/backup of oxygen and shut them off.  Ensuring the O2 and Hydrogen stay in a proper balance within the unit.  In a previous base and older ONI version, I had a case where high pressure O2 managed to squeeze itself (somehow) into the the Hydrogen chamber.

 

With the amount of Dupes I have and my pipe network, this machine produces roughly around 100G/s of Hydrogen, give or take.  My hydrogen generator is pretty much running non-stop with only a few pauses here and there.

[trukogre]

34 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

why are you using pressure switches? To start pumping only when only hydrogen is there and prevent oxygen mixing up?

there are two possible issues with the gas pump:

1. There is not enough gas pressure around the gas pump to allow it to deliver the full 500 g/s , which means that you are wasting power in a sense as you're still paying the 240 W but it's not working at full capacity. 

2. The pump is surrounded by oxygen instead of hydrogen, which means that you're wasting power pumping oxygen which you're then just venting back out again through the filter.

The atmospheric sensor deals with problem 1, but doesn't help with problem 2.  Valving down your oxygen output deals with problem 2 but not problem 1.  Depending on what issues you're having with your gas pump for this system, one or both of these solutions may make sense to implement, or you could just put both in from the start to be extra safe.  As Flying Fox noted, one can also deal with #2 by simply arranging the electrolyzers in a purposely designed chamber to split up the hydrogen and oxygen through geometry.

[MidnightSteam]

I was going to write a whole post on the Electrolyzer+Hydrogen Generator setup but I never got to it so...Here we go.

It can never reach 100% efficiency - that is intended. Through normal means without exploits of course.

I introduce to you, my Oxygen System 3.0 with Mechanical Filters!

This spreadsheet is goes with my design. I have my best cycle entered in but usually it hovers around 90% efficiency.

OxygenAndPower - Copy.xlsx

 

In game, this design clogs up because it actually needs 3 bypass bridges for the bottom Gas Pumps; I had 3 separate hydrogen squares lined up. Either 3 bypass bridges or another design but I don't have time right now to figure it out so I'm using regular Gas Filters.

 

@eggsvbacon Ahh, I apologize. I usually attach a save file but since I haven't tested things with the new upgrades I decided not to. Today I have time so I've checked some things over and fixed the broken Heavi-Watt plates. You can also check the previous cycles.

Here you go: OxygenMechanicalFilter7.sav

[PhailRaptor]

You know, it would be really beneficial if they added another forum for the purpose of "publishing" the blueprints for setups.  It would be a great think-tank and idea exchange, as well.  Some people post the setups they have devised, others comment on them, ask questions, and point out potential improvements.  Pros and cons are toyed with.  Etc.

[sadovsf]

Maybe move this to suggestions section  

[TheScaryOne]

On 12/5/2017 at 4:05 PM, The Flying Fox said:

Here's my particular setup.  Produces plenty of O2 (More then I need) and plenty of Hydrogen.  In fact, it produces a quite steady amount of Hydrogen to the point that during more of the start of the base, the hydrogen generator pretty much covers most of what I need for power with some topping up with a manual generator.  I rarely touch coal generators.

So this looks like a modified mirrored version of the one you posted in the "electrolyzers wrong proportions" thread. Is the extra depth needed, or could I move the transformer up and make the whole thing 10 tall? Also, I see you got rid of your dual sensors for the electrolyzers to detect gas backup, after Automation I used an AND gate to keep the dual sensors, is this new setup at risk for destabilizing if the hydrogen backs up?

[eggsvbacon]

On 12/6/2017 at 8:52 PM, MidnightSteam said:

stuff

Can I get a save file for that so I can learn some stuff? Thanks

[TheScaryOne]

28 minutes ago, eggsvbacon said:

Can I get a save file for that so I can learn some stuff? Thanks

Learn all about mechanical filters here. 

 

[eggsvbacon]

9 hours ago, TheScaryOne said:

Learn all about mechanical filters here. 

I already know about that, I want to see this guys stuff in action, there also appears to be a more efficient design with vents that I don't know how to do.

That's why I'd like to see Midnight's save file, it's a bit odd, he popped out an excel chart but not a save.

[The Flying Fox]

11 hours ago, TheScaryOne said:

So this looks like a modified mirrored version of the one you posted in the "electrolyzers wrong proportions" thread. Is the extra depth needed, or could I move the transformer up and make the whole thing 10 tall? Also, I see you got rid of your dual sensors for the electrolyzers to detect gas backup, after Automation I used an AND gate to keep the dual sensors, is this new setup at risk for destabilizing if the hydrogen backs up?

Yeah, it's pretty much is that.  Now that they fixed lighter gases from wanting to heavily favor moving to the left, having the hydrogen chamber in the middle works out well.  And no, the extra depth is not needed.  When I originally made it, I was more cramped for space trying to avoid the slime biome that was there, while trying to keep the whole hot thing away from the core of the base.  So, I just stuffed the transformer in there and the hydrogen generator was in the little room to the left of it.  I'm sure the whole thing could be compacted more, but I like to give the pumps space to 'breathe', per-say.  Extra space helps to dissipate heat as-well.

 

I was also planning on adding the extra pressure sensor for detecting hydrogen build-up at some point.  So far, I've just been dumping it all into the hydrogen generator without issue, so I haven't needed it.  But, would it be a good idea to include?  Yeah.

[PhailRaptor]

1 hour ago, The Flying Fox said:

Now that they fixed lighter gases from wanting to heavily favor moving to the left, having the hydrogen chamber in the middle works out well.

They do still seem to favor moving left while rising, but by a much smaller degree than previously.  Same thing for falling to the right.  I always have more CO2 on the right, but the angle at which it separates is now much, much flatter.

[UristMcKerman]

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198125719152/screenshots/?appid=457140

use this design. Produces 1kg/s of O2 and 125g/s of H2, and unless you will bother with cooling super hot O2 the way I do (costs 720W) - it's even profitable, nets around 250W

[MidnightSteam]

1 hour ago, UristMcKerman said:

use this design. Produces 1kg/s of O2 and 125g/s of H2, and unless you will bother with cooling super hot O2 the way I do (costs 720W) - it's even profitable, nets around 250W

Whoah, that's quite an increase compared to my design - at 93.844%. I'll have to experiment with this. Only drawback I see is the AtmoSensor; it requires Refined Metal and fine tuning.

I see that you don't have doors. Was this built during gameplay or debug? And what's the AtmoSensor's setting?

[eggsvbacon]

4 hours ago, UristMcKerman said:

STUFF~

Post a save file please

 

2 hours ago, MidnightSteam said:

STUFF

Post a save file please

[MidnightSteam]

27 minutes ago, eggsvbacon said:

Post a save file please

Scroll back up. I didn't make a new comment just edited the old one.

[Terzsian]

On 12/8/2017 at 7:38 PM, MidnightSteam said:

Whoah, that's quite an increase compared to my design - at 93.844%. I'll have to experiment with this. Only drawback I see is the AtmoSensor; it requires Refined Metal and fine tuning.

I see that you don't have doors. Was this built during gameplay or debug? And what's the AtmoSensor's setting?

Those readings are for a two electrolyzer setup which means that that setup has a 60% efficiency, which is nothing spectacular. One electrolyzer's max theoretical output is O2 888g/s, H2 112g/s. Unfortunately, the game does not let you run an electrolyzer with 100% efficiency for some reason. It may be a bug. The most I could reach during a 10 cycle test period was 94,85% efficiency, and that is 505,48 kg of O2/cycle (enough for 8.4 dupes) with only one self-powered (!) electrolyzer. The theoretical max output should be 532.8 kg/cycle. In one cycle I managed to reach 521 kg, but surely that was due to RNG :D.

edit: Oh, and the H2 production is continuously above 100g/s (105g/s) without notable spikes in production meaning that one hydrogen gen is continuously running and an other is producing some minimal extra power.

edit2: 100% efficiency cannot be reached due to an RNG factor relating to the electrolyzer's water usage. It doesn't matter if you completely mitigate the "Max Gas Pressure" negative trait, this RNG factor will limit the electrolyzer's efficiency around 95% without any logical explanation or visible cue to the player. So I guess it is a bug, or it is intended to show that nothing works with 100% efficiency :D. However, there are equipment in the game that do work with 100% efficiency...