Perpetual Motion Water Cooling (No pump/pipes loop)

[asveron]

So a while back I figured out how to make perpetual motion with water. I didn't do anything with the idea for a while, but recently I decided to try using it to disperse heat. It seems to work pretty well.

A few upsides:

+No energy

+Hydrogen is locked in upper chamber, won't have to fuzz about it leaking out. Even though its in a separate room it transfers coldness much faster than just a metal wall since the water is moving.

+If you want to take advantage of drip cooling, it does so without energy. If its patched, it still disperses heat really quickly and introduces coldness fairly fast.

+It's possible that the coldness it stored better in this room since it's in mostly in the water rather than directly in the air. As in it doesn't transfer out the doors quickly because a lot of coldness is stored in the water which is only adjacent to abyssalite.

Downsides include using a lot of space and being hard to set up. It probably isn't as powerful as stuff like liquid oxygen etc... (oh damn I should try to replicate this with liquid oxygen).

I'm a bit curios whether or not it'll break if it freezes too much, i'll let you guys know. I'm thinking that it might just stop cycling if it freezes, and continue when it melts. However, there's a possibility that it creates enough snowballs without freezing a tile so the entire thing malfunctions.

You can read this for how to make it:

You also need to drill lots of holes on the far left side of the wall as the water goes up because the pathfinding is dumber now. Probably also why people noticed liquids behaving dumbly recently. The input from Kahlua using a carbon tile of air is really useful, though you can use any combinations of gas, or just a single type of gas if there's enough pressure. Leme know if you have trouble figuring it out, I'm just to lazy to rewrite/compile the instructions right now.

**edit

Version 2 with temperature control by shutting off the door when it's too cold.

The carbon tile of air between the two gaps of water should be a decent insulator. I'll update you guys to let you guys know whether or not it'll completely freeze. By the way, I should mention that this isn't the most efficient way to cool things. Just the coolest way to cool...

Notes on freezing: The setup will eventually recover if it freezes as long as the little gas gap still has at least 2 gas types. 

There's a ton of wheezeworts in this one because it takes a while to cool down the entire body of water. @bzgzd mentioned that there's an exploit with wheezeworts cooling large amounts of water. I'm not certain it's taking place here yet since I've had the water cooling for a while. Ironically the moving water might actually reduce the effects of the exploit. More likely though, the exploit seems to have something to do with the distance of the wheezeworts from the body of water, i'll wait for his reply to clarify.

[Fetid]

This is great. Will reference.

[Neotix]

To improve efficiency you can use petroleum and rise liquid little above one tile. Petroleum never freeze because it have lower freezeing temperature then wheezeworts can reach. Rising liquid level will trigger "feature", low amount of liquid even temperature with high amount under. So ~1kg of petroleum will have contact with hydrogen and cool very fast, and cool down very fast ~800kg bellow that will also cool down metal tiles. Temp plates would also help to take heat from press.

I see that you have problem with pressure in left bottom corner. Use 3 thick wall that don't break under any pressure.

[onlineous]

5 hours ago, Neotix said:

To improve efficiency you can use petroleum and rise liquid little above one tile. Petroleum never freeze because it have lower freezeing temperature then wheezeworts can reach. Rising liquid level will trigger "feature", low amount of liquid even temperature with high amount under. So ~1kg of petroleum will have contact with hydrogen and cool very fast, and cool down very fast ~800kg bellow that will also cool down metal tiles. Temp plates would also help to take heat from press.

I see that you have problem with pressure in left bottom corner. Use 3 thick wall that don't break under any pressure.

Not true. Wheezeworts can freeze petroleum. Wheezeworts stop cooling at an inner temperature of -60, petroleum freezes somewhere in the low -50's (not sure of the exact temperature).

 

 

Another option for powerless cooling (and a bit 'cleaner' in my opinion) is using a liquid pipes cooling loop. Liquid in a continuous loop keeps running through pipes, even without a pump (at least, it used to in the past, they might have fixed it). 

Funnel the cooling loop through a cold room and use wolframite or tungsten pipes and you get a cooling solution without using any energy.

I prefer using a pump though, mainly because it's easier to control the temperature of a reservoir and a bigger reservoir has less chance of freezing than 10 kilograms of liquid in a pipe.

[Saturnus]

39 minutes ago, onlineous said:

Not true. Wheezeworts can freeze petroleum. Wheezeworts stop cooling at an inner temperature of -60, petroleum freezes somewhere in the low -50's (not sure of the exact temperature).

Put the wheezeworts on sideways mechanical doors with a temperature sensor and you can switch the wheezeworts on and off.

Not saying the wheezeworts can't freeze petroleum but using petroleum for cooling is a bad idea when you can use crude oil or water, and just temperature control the wheezeworts instead.

[onlineous]

2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Put the wheezeworts on sideways mechanical doors with a temperature sensor and you can switch the wheezeworts on and off.

Not saying the wheezeworts can't freeze petroleum but using petroleum for cooling is a bad idea when you can use crude oil or water, and just temperature control the wheezeworts instead.

Nice idea, didn't think of that. I think I'll stick with the petroleum though. It is quite easy to make in late game base and I like my coolant as cold as possible.

[Saturnus]

14 minutes ago, onlineous said:

Nice idea, didn't think of that. I think I'll stick with the petroleum though. It is quite easy to make in late game base and I like my coolant as cold as possible.

The problem with petroleum is it doesn't cool very well. You'll need petroleum at about -80C to have the same cooling as crude oil at -20C.

And with petroleum without temperature control you also run the risk of getting below the condensation point of the CO2 the makes the pump possible in the first place. Sure, most of the time that will clear up by itself but sometimes it doesn't so I prefer to stay on the safe side for enclosed systems like this.

Remember, adding a door and sensor doesn't cost any energy at all to run, so why not?

[onlineous]

2 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

The problem with petroleum is it doesn't cool very well. You'll need petroleum at about -80C to have the same cooling as crude oil at -20C.

I might be wrong but isn't the thermal conductivity of petroleum the same as for crude oil, but the heat capacity (of petroleum) a bit higher?

[donutman07]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

The problem with petroleum is it doesn't cool very well. You'll need petroleum at about -80C to have the same cooling as crude oil at -20C.

Why is that? Their thermal conductivity is the same (2) and their specific heats are almost the same (1.69 vs 1.76).  They should be nearly identical except petroleum can go lower temperature making it better

[Saturnus]

5 minutes ago, donutman07 said:

Why is that? Their thermal conductivity is the same (2) and their specific heats are almost the same (1.69 vs 1.76).  They should be nearly identical except petroleum can go lower temperature making it better

Hmmm... might be wrong about that actually. Haven't used petroleum for anything (other than making plastic) since automation upgrade came out. If so my bad. Still temperature controlling the wheezeworts is the safest option due to the problems described above.

[bzgzd]

13 hours ago, Neotix said:

To improve efficiency you can use petroleum and rise liquid little above one tile. Petroleum never freeze because it have lower freezeing temperature then wheezeworts can reach. Rising liquid level will trigger "feature", low amount of liquid even temperature with high amount under. So ~1kg of petroleum will have contact with hydrogen and cool very fast, and cool down very fast ~800kg bellow that will also cool down metal tiles. Temp plates would also help to take heat from press.

When someone is using this exploit he don't need moving water or anything special.

It is so bad (or strong) that one wheezewort can keep cool maybe 50 constantly running polymer press.
I tried it in debug mode with 10 machines and let them run 100% during 10 cycles and wheezewort was needed "on" very sporadically.

All 10 press constantly running and at around 55 Celsius with zero energy needed to cool them, they really should fix this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIMFfQi2Kls

 

[asveron]

15 minutes ago, bzgzd said:

When someone is using this exploit he don't need moving water or anything special.

It is so bad (or strong) that one wheezewort can keep cool maybe 50 constantly running polymer press.
I tried it in debug mode with 10 machines and let them run 100% during 10 cycles and wheezewort was needed "on" very sporadically.

All 10 press constantly running and at around 55 Celsius with zero energy needed to cool them, they really should fix this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIMFfQi2Kls

 

Hey I think that's a bit misleading. I'm certainly not sure about the effectiveness of moving water as opposed to plates that are much more powerful. However that video you linked doesn't really work the same way in real application. The cooling is from the coldness stored inside the water. Water takes a very long time to cool down and very long time to heat up. The wheezewort isn't keeping the entire room cold forever, it's the fact that the coldness in the water seems to never runs out.

Try a test at room temperature to see how long it takes for the entire body of water to cool in the first place.

13 hours ago, Neotix said:

To improve efficiency you can use petroleum and rise liquid little above one tile. Petroleum never freeze because it have lower freezeing temperature then wheezeworts can reach. Rising liquid level will trigger "feature", low amount of liquid even temperature with high amount under. So ~1kg of petroleum will have contact with hydrogen and cool very fast, and cool down very fast ~800kg bellow that will also cool down metal tiles. Temp plates would also help to take heat from press.

I see that you have problem with pressure in left bottom corner. Use 3 thick wall that don't break under any pressure.

Interesting! I'll definitely try it out with different liquids!

The wall isn't cracking under pressure any more. When I started the loop, the water was stuck in the first tile since you have to drill little holes on the left to get it started. It's actually possible that I only need 1 tile wall now but I haven't really tested it yet. 2 is holding up fine for now. I'll post an updated giant version that i've been working on that does use 3 tiles!

[bzgzd]

1 hour ago, asveron said:

The cooling is from the coldness stored inside the water. Water takes a very long time to cool down and very long time to heat up. The wheezewort isn't keeping the entire room cold forever, it's the fact that the coldness in the water seems to never runs out.

Try a test at room temperature to see how long it takes for the entire body of water to cool in the first place.

No. Because of exploit/bug.

That's what this exploit is about. To cool down "entire body of water" by one wheezewort is same as to cool down just that hydrogen above water.

So from room temperature 27C down to 10C it takes about 5 cycles (same as if there is no water just hydrogen - I used 5kg) and then one wheezewort is the only thing that keeps it at 10C forever.
cycle 29: https://i.imgur.com/s23sQY9.png
cycle 34: https://i.imgur.com/0bw5EWz.png

 

"Water takes a very long time to cool down"
Normally yes but... Check that video again. Or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjFtmItA66U) to see how "long" it takes using this exploit.

 

[asveron]

1 minute ago, bzgzd said:

No. Because of exploit/bug.

That's what this exploit is about. To cool down "entire body of water" by one wheezewort is same as to cool down just that hydrogen above water.

So from room temperature 27C down to 10C it takes about 5 cycles (same as if there is no water just hydrogen - I used 5kg) and then one wheezewort is the only thing that keeps it at 10C forever.
cycle 29: https://i.imgur.com/s23sQY9.png
cycle 34: https://i.imgur.com/0bw5EWz.png

 

"Water takes a very long time to cool down"
Normally yes but... Check that video again. Or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjFtmItA66U) to see how "long" it takes using this exploit.

 

Ah interesting! I had a similar situation when one an entire water storage froze, and I thought it was just a matter of time. Must be the same bug.

Do you know the exact parameters of this to happen?

I've noticed that moving the wheezewort a bit further from the water generates a more drastic result. The water storage I had, had a wheezewort that was relatively far from it (about 8 tiles).

In this smaller setup, the water doesn't freeze quickly at all. Even in my larger setup, with much more water. If the wheezewort is right above it, it doesn't freeze that fast. It's funny if the moving water actually reduces the effect of the exploit.

I'm making the setup mostly for how fun it is, though I do think that have an extra layer of cooling beneath the machines has got to be more conductive than not having it. Sure metal tiles are way more effective, but doubling the cooling from two sides has got to help. Unnecessary perhaps, but not devoid of effect!

 

 

[Saturnus]

I find the capillary effect pump fun for making eternally flowing water falls and such. It's not terribly useful in a game mechanics sort of way. But it's fun to watch.

[onlineous]

Does this bug actually work in reverse as well? I have a water storage I'm cooling down, with warmer water dripping into it. Will this (partially) negate the effect of the cooling?

[bzgzd]

2 minutes ago, onlineous said:

Does this bug actually work in reverse as well? I have a water storage I'm cooling down, with warmer water dripping into it. Will this (partially) negate the effect of the cooling?

 

8 minutes ago, asveron said:

Do you know the exact parameters of this to happen?

 

No but just from observations bug seems to be when there is cold water above hot water, then simulation just seems to swap temperatures (as cold water should go down). But there is no check for mass so if you have that cold top water tile 0.1kg and bellow is hot 1000kg it will still swap temperatures and you have just cooled water super fast. So all it needs is very thin top layer as that can be cooled easy by gas (when it has 100g for example) and then it will distribute coldness down.

[onlineous]

Just now, bzgzd said:

 

 

No but just from observations bug seems to be when there is cold water above hot water, then simulation just seems to swap temperatures (as cold water should go down). But there is no check for mass so if you have that cold top water tile 0.1kg and bellow is hot 1000kg it will still swap temperatures and you have just cooled water super fast. So all it needs is very thin top layer as that can be cooled easy by gas (when it has 100g for example) and then it will distribute coldness down.

Awesome, I got a bit worries there 

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, onlineous said:

Does this bug actually work in reverse as well? I have a water storage I'm cooling down, with warmer water dripping into it. Will this (partially) negate the effect of the cooling?

You can almost avoid warm water heating up cold water. The cooling bug exploit is based on having a very small amount of water in the top layer. A few grams to kilos is best. This will cooling the water below it very quickly. But if you want to avoid warm water dripping into the cold to heat that up just have almost full tiles as the top layer and it'll pretty much delete the heat from the water dripping in.

[onlineous]

That does kind of contradict bzgzd. According to him it doesn't apply when hot water gets put on top of colder water because it has to do with the colder top layer of water being forced down.

[asveron]

12 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I find the capillary effect pump fun for making eternally flowing water falls and such. It's not terribly useful in a game mechanics sort of way. But it's fun to watch.

You understand me. 

I do believe it does have "usefulness" though! ...just not anything better than existing mechanics...

[Saturnus]

6 minutes ago, asveron said:

You understand me. 

I do believe it does have "usefulness" though! ...just not anything better than existing mechanics...

There is one thing it can do. The capillary effect pump can transport an awful lot of water. I think I've seen 200kg/s... or the equivalent of 20 large liquid pumps per channel. That's a massive throughput should there be any use for it.

[asveron]

Just now, Saturnus said:

There is one thing it can do with it. The capillary effect pump can transport an awful lot of water. I think I've seen 200kg/s... or the equivalent of 20 large liquid pumps per channel. That's a massive throughput should there be any use for it.

Yeah I'm making a giant rain machine that makes my entire base rain!

I'm going to design my base around ponds and waterfalls collecting said rain.

I was building a massive route to send water from my geysers to my reservoir but it didn't seem exiting enough.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

2 hours ago, onlineous said:

 

 

Does this bug actually work in reverse as well? I have a water storage I'm cooling down, with warmer water dripping into it. Will this (partially) negate the effect of the cooling?

Please read these two topics first.

 

 

Heat deletion never works in reverse.

However, heat deletion still happens in your case. When warm water drips into cold water, warm water hits the bottom tile and then mixs with cold water in bottom. The water in bottom will be hotter than water above, which triggers heat deletion.

[Oozinator]

On 5.12.2017 at 1:04 AM, asveron said:

Nice build, even when it's unlogic