Entropy device vs weeze

[chemie]

What is wattage cooling of weeze under H2?

or how many weeze to equal 400W from entropy device?

[donutman07]

in high density hydrogen, a wheezewort will take 1000g of hydrogen and lower it by 5^oK.  Hydrogen's specific heat is 2.4 J/g/^oK.  So we have shaved off 12kJ of energy per inhale of the wheezewort.  I think it inhales once per second, but not positive.  Which would make it -12kW.

 

In practice this seems no where near the truth however.

[trukogre]

9 hours ago, donutman07 said:

in high density hydrogen, a wheezewort will take 1000g of hydrogen and lower it by 5^oK.  Hydrogen's specific heat is 2.4 J/g/^oK.  So we have shaved off 12kJ of energy per inhale of the wheezewort.  I think it inhales once per second, but not positive.  Which would make it -12kW.

 

In practice this seems no where near the truth however.

I'd say a wheeze in high density hydrogen gets close to 12 kW cooling, that looks quite near the truth actually.  

Now , comparing a wheeze to an entropy device, let's say a wheeze gets 10 kW+ in practice.  The entropy device lists cooling of 400 W, which after applying the 200 hidden modifier cools for 80 kW.  So that's 8 wheeze's in high density hydrogen, if the entropy device is going full blast and obeys the 200 hidden multiplier that supposedly applies to all building heat outputs.  I haven't done controlled testing on the entropy device myself someone else did and claimed he got a 400 kW in actual cooling result, but it's likely he forgot another hidden modifer, specifically the building mass thermal multiplier of 1/5.

[chemie]

How did you get fro 400 W to 80kW or 400KW from 400W?

[Angelix]

i prefer wheezeworts due their convenience

btw. their efficiency is heavy related to gas specs/amount. there is topic about that

[BlueLance]

50 minutes ago, chemie said:

How did you get fro 400 W to 80kW or 400KW from 400W?

400 divided by 5 is 80.

All temperature calculations with buildings are done at 1 5th their mass

[trukogre]

2 hours ago, chemie said:

How did you get fro 400 W to 80kW or 400KW from 400W?

All buildings apparently produce 200 times their listed heat output.  This hidden multiplier of 200, according to those who have looked at the code, comes from a combination of two factors: 

1. all building heat outputs are 1000 times higher in the actual code than in the description

2. the code multiplies building masses by 1/5 for thermal calculations, which then cuts the heat transferred to the environment by 1/5 as well.

1000 * 1/5 = 200.

However, my understanding is that with the thermal regulator and aquatuner, there are two types of thermal reaction.  The first is the listed heat output, which is multiplied by 200.  The second is the transfer of heat from the material in the pipe to the environment.  My recollection is that this is not multiplied by anything, but simply transferred equally.  So, that second heat transfer is (mass in the current segment of pipe) * 14 K * specific heat of the material, which is then added directly to the environment around the TR or Aquatuner.

[Saturnus]

Ok. I made a test set up and tried to get everything as equal as possible.

Note that each has 4 800kg iron ore heat spreaders, and I put obsidian piles on the floor to mimic the flower pots as well as having obsidian tiles below. So the only difference is that the nullifier is 800kg of iron ore and the wheezeworts are 800kg of ooze.

There's 2kg/tile hydrogen. In precisely one cycle (600 seconds exactly) it went from exactly 0C in both rooms to -72C and -10C respectively.

So to answer the OP question

17 hours ago, chemie said:

or how many weeze to equal 400W from entropy device?

About 14.4

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

2 hours ago, trukogre said:

All buildings apparently produce 200 times their listed heat output.  This hidden multiplier of 200, according to those who have looked at the code, comes from a combination of two factors: 

1. all building heat outputs are 1000 times higher in the actual code than in the description

2. the code multiplies building masses by 1/5 for thermal calculations, which then cuts the heat transferred to the environment by 1/5 as well.

1000 * 1/5 = 200.

However, my understanding is that with the thermal regulator and aquatuner, there are two types of thermal reaction.  The first is the listed heat output, which is multiplied by 200.  The second is the transfer of heat from the material in the pipe to the environment.  My recollection is that this is not multiplied by anything, but simply transferred equally.  So, that second heat transfer is (mass in the current segment of pipe) * 14 K * specific heat of the material, which is then added directly to the environment around the TR or Aquatuner.

I'm not a programmer, so my understanding about the code may be wrong.

======================

The heat generation of all the machines is divided into two parts: part A is added to the machine itself, and the part B is added directly to the environment. If machines are put in vacuum, their part B heat generation will disappear. I've reported it in bug tracker but not be replied yet.

For most machines such as battery and anti entropy, the part A is 4 times as B.

For Liquid Tepidizer, the part A is 0.016 times as B.

However, for thermal regulator and aquatuner, their part B equal zero. They only have part A, which is equal to the heat removed from gas/liquid. All the heat generation is added to the the TR or Aquatuner, and no heat is added to the environment.

4 hours ago, chemie said:

How did you get fro 400 W to 80kW or 400KW from 400W?

Take anti entropy as an example. In the code, the part A of anti entropy is -64, and the part B of anti entropy is -16.(-16 and -64 are two numbers written in the code, no units)

  (-16)+(-64)=-80

The -80 works as -80kW, but it is displayed as -80*5=-400W in game.

 

 

I'm not sure how anyone can get -400kW. If he puts the anti entropy in vacuum and forget the factor 5, than the result will be -64kW*5=-320kW. Unless the anti entropy is put in the thin air and surrounded by abyssalite, he will get a result close to -400kW.

Or I need to fix my theory.

===edit===

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

Ok. I made a test set up and tried to get everything as equal as possible.

Note that each has 4 800kg iron ore heat spreaders, and I put obsidian piles on the floor to mimic the flower pots as well as having obsidian tiles below. So the only difference is that the nullifier is 800kg of iron ore and the wheezeworts are 800kg of ooze.

There's 2kg/tile hydrogen. In precisely one cycle (600 seconds exactly) it went from exactly 0C in both rooms to -72C and -10C respectively.

So to answer the OP question

About 14.4

Your experiment tries simulating the true situation in the game. However, the specific heat capacity of genetic ooze is 3.47,and the iron ore is 0.449. This may influence your experiment's universality.

[BlueLance]

Another question is, does the Entropy device delete gasses like the wheezeworts do?

[Saturnus]

26 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

Another question is, does the Entropy device delete gasses like the wheezeworts do?

In my test above neither deleted gases. There was exactly 32kg of hydrogen in both rooms at the start and at the end.

[BlueLance]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

In my test above neither deleted gases. There was exactly 32kg of hydrogen in both rooms at the start and at the end.

I was always told that Wheezeworts delete gas.... well if not then thats good at least

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, BlueLance said:

I was always told that Wheezeworts delete gas.... well if not then thats good at least

I think that mostly happen (or happened) at low pressure levels and/or with mixed gas environments. I'm not sure if they fixed it completely but at least it didn't occur in my test setup.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

A normal breathing wheeze always stores about 300g gas. However, once the game is reload, the 300g gas will be deleted, and the wheeze will absorb another 300g gas.

Another gas deletion situation is that the gas released by wheeze is different from the kind of gas around the wheeze and one of them losts the battle.

[donutman07]

8 hours ago, trukogre said:

I'd say a wheeze in high density hydrogen gets close to 12 kW cooling, that looks quite near the truth actually.  

Now , comparing a wheeze to an entropy device, let's say a wheeze gets 10 kW+ in practice.  The entropy device lists cooling of 400 W, which after applying the 200 hidden modifier cools for 80 kW.  So that's 8 wheeze's in high density hydrogen, if the entropy device is going full blast and obeys the 200 hidden multiplier that supposedly applies to all building heat outputs.  I haven't done controlled testing on the entropy device myself someone else did and claimed he got a 400 kW in actual cooling result, but it's likely he forgot another hidden modifer, specifically the building mass thermal multiplier of 1/5.

Ah I forgot about the 200.  Makes more sense then.  In Oxygen the weeze is more like 5kW then and a nat gas generator is 4kW which seems pretty accurate.

[chemie]

Still confused how 80kW*5=400W (and not 400kW)?

As a chemical engineer, I am disappointed they use the equations but then have all these fudge factors that make for all these crazy answers and only reading the code or debug tests can explain.

But I like Saturnus' test and 14 is much higher than I thought.

 

PS Shouldn't it be an ethalpy device vs entropy?

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

7 minutes ago, chemie said:

Still confused how 80kW*5=400W (and not 400kW)?

As a chemical engineer, I am disappointed they use the equations but then have all these fudge factors that make for all these crazy answers and only reading the code or debug tests can explain.

But I like Saturnus' test and 14 is much higher than I thought.

 

PS Shouldn't it be an ethalpy device vs entropy?

-80 is just a number, without unit. The number works as kilowatt, and be displayed as (number*5)watt.

 

ps. You are right. No business with entropy

[Risu]

28 minutes ago, R9MX4 said:

A normal breathing wheeze always stores about 300g gas. However, once the game is reload, the 300g gas will be deleted, and the wheeze will absorb another 300g gas.

Another gas deletion situation is that the gas released by wheeze is different from the kind of gas around the wheeze and one of them losts the battle.

Wheezeworts never store the gases they breathe for long. They have a storage changed callback to instantly dump everything out.
Digging them up however turns off the state machine and whatever they were busy doing drops as bottles.

So you'd never find a wheezewort with gas in their storage in a savefile as everything finishes before being saved.
 

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

16 minutes ago, Risu said:

Wheezeworts never store the gases they breathe for long. They have a storage changed callback to instantly dump everything out.
Digging them up however turns off the state machine and whatever they were busy doing drops as bottles.

So you'd never find a wheezewort with gas in their storage in a savefile as everything finishes before being saved.
 

I plant a wheeze in vacuum room and then use debug to paint 2 kg oxygen in the top cell. Soon, there is only 1.57 kg oxygen left. After I save & reload the game, only 1216.9g oxygen left. Every time I reload the game, oxygen become less and less.

If wheeze doesn't store gas, maybe other reason causes the lost of oxygen.

 

[chemie]

46 minutes ago, R9MX4 said:

-80 is just a number, without unit. The number works as kilowatt, and be displayed as (number*5)watt.

 

ps. You are right. No business with entropy

OK but it appears they confuse watt and kilowatt or use interchangabley which is as bad as the food calorie really being a kilocalorie of energy.  Why say 400W when you mean 400kW?

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

9 minutes ago, chemie said:

OK but it appears they confuse watt and kilowatt or use interchangabley which is as bad as the food calorie really being a kilocalorie of energy.  Why say 400W when you mean 400kW?

There are two hidden factors in heat transfer, factor 200 and factor 5

Factor 200「 The true heat generation is 200 times as many as be displayed. For anti entropy, the heat generation that is displayed is -400w, but the true heat generation is -80kw」

Factor 5「Every joule effects 5 times on the machine. 800kg of iron needs 359.2 kJ to rise temperature by 1 degree. However, one anti entropy(iron, 800kg) only needs 71.84 kJ to rise temperature by 1 degree.」

As a result, the shown heat generation of anti entropy is -400w, but the true heat generation is -80kw. When the -80kw is used to cool the anti entropy itself, it works as -400kw.

[chemie]

2 hours ago, R9MX4 said:

There are two hidden factors in heat transfer, factor 200 and factor 5

Factor 200「 The true heat generation is 200 times as many as be displayed. For anti entropy, the heat generation that is displayed is -400w, but the true heat generation is -80kw」

Factor 5「Every joule effects 5 times on the machine. 800kg of iron needs 359.2 kJ to rise temperature by 1 degree. However, one anti entropy(iron, 800kg) only needs 71.84 kJ to rise temperature by 1 degree.」

As a result, the shown heat generation of anti entropy is -400w, but the true heat generation is -80kw. When the -80kw is used to cool the anti entropy itself, it works as -400kw.

So show 80kw or 400kw but 400w is just meaningless number

[Kabrute]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:14 AM, R9MX4 said:

A normal breathing wheeze always stores about 300g gas. However, once the game is reload, the 300g gas will be deleted, and the wheeze will absorb another 300g gas.

Another gas deletion situation is that the gas released by wheeze is different from the kind of gas around the wheeze and one of them losts the battle.

From what I have seen wheezes pull from their base and push out the top, I have used this as a power free pump to drive air up a tube before.....

[Kermack]

If you position the wheezeworts properly in container of hydrogen in a  circular fashion, taking advantage of the wheezewort's natural pumping behavior from bottom to top you can produce a natural current flow and reduce the hydrogen's temperature to extreme lows.  The more hydrogen per tile, the more cooling net per time.  If you set it up right you could freeze incoming geyser water at red hot temps.

This pic is the only thing I have at the moment, it's not finished(deleted my old saves).  This isn't my idea and it's a legit method of cooling as legit comes in this game. 

The middle area is where the water can be pumped in from the geyser and out to the base.  If everything is properly insulated, and eventually the middle area will have a nice conductive metal, the geyser water will be no problem.  Remember the more hydrogen you pump in the loop the more intense the effect but make regard to pressures when dealing with more exotic/hotter elements.

.

[Coolthulhu]

On 11/30/2017 at 10:16 PM, chemie said:

So show 80kw or 400kw but 400w is just meaningless number

Showing 80kW would be very misleading. Only buildings are affected by the factor 5, items and free-flowing fluids are not. It does not affect generation, only the temperature of the building itself.

I don't see any reason not to show 400kW, though. The 200 multiplier sounds like a placeholder value that someone put in the code as a quick hack, then forgot to properly turn into a feature. Same could be said about the 5 mass divisor for buildings, though.