Power Draining Strangely

[greggbert]

I Apologize in advance for not having screenshots, but ever since the Germ update power is behaving in an annoyingly unpredictable way:

My Setup 

Generation (2 Circuits)

2 Generators - Light wire - 2 batteries - Transformer - Heavy Watt

2 Generators - Light wire - 2 batteries - Transformer - Heavy Watt

So basically the only thing connected to the heavy watt is the output of both generator transformers

Appliances  (2 Circuits)

Heavy Watt - Transformer - Light Wire - Consumers

Heavy Watt - Transformer - Light Wire - Consumers

Basically all the transformers are connected to the heavy watt wire, and the only thing that the heavy watt wire does is connect the transformers together.

So here's my problem.  My dupes run their butts off until all 4 batteries are full.  If I then stop them from running, ,when the power drains, it seems to randcmly choose a circuit and drain those two batteries all the way down to zero, before  it takes any power from the other generator circuit.   That's OK when there are just two generator circuits, but then if I add a third generator circuit

Coal Power Plant - light wire - 2 Batteries - Transfomer - Heavy Watt

The same sort of thing happens, one generator circuit will drain, all the way to zero, then the second, then the third.

First off I hate this.  I would rather all generator circuits drained at the same rate into the main network, they don't.

But even if that's the rule, my biggest problem is that I can't figure out which generator circuits drain in which order.  It seems to be completely random.  I would love to  make it so that my coal circuit always drains first, and my manual ones last, but I can't figure out how to make that happen.

 

Anyway I hope you understand the problem and would appreciate some tips.

 

[Saturnus]

I think you may have misunderstood how the transformers work in the game.

Transformers are used to isolate producers and batteries from consumers. All the producers and batteries can go on the same circuit, and since they're not counted as a load you can have any number of them on a standard wire. Heavi-watt wires are only required to be used on a transformer output if the total load on that specific transformer output exceeds 1KW. (Edit: note that if the total load on a transformer output exceeds 1KW you also need a battery on the output side but it can any battery, tiny or large).

Done this way all batteries are drained and charged equally.

[greggbert]

So I can put all 5 of my generators on the backbone using only standard wire?  And I only need to use transformers for the consumer circuits?  If true, that would cut my number of transformers on the above example from 5 to 2 and save me a ton of heat.

Wait a sec, if that's true I could actually put half of my consumer  circuits on the backbone and then go  down to one transformer, to isolate the other half of the consumers, assuming that each group of consumers use < 1KW.

Is it a bug or oversight to not count generators or batteries as part of the load?  Can we expect an update where this might be "fixed?"

 

[Ciderblock]

20 minutes ago, greggbert said:

Is it a bug or oversight to not count generators or batteries as part of the load?  Can we expect an update where this might be "fixed?"

I can't speak for Klei obviously, but I would guess that the answer is yes. It seems to me that the point of the heavy wire+transformer design was to get you to put your power generators on a heavy watt wire line, then feed any lines that don't exceed 1 kW into the main body of your base through transformers. But as it stands you only need heavy watt wire when a single consumer circuit passes 1 kW, which is not typical (except for the thermo aquatuner). It just seems like the current design doesn't really achieve what appears to be its goal.

[The Plum Gate]

@greggbert, the transformers in the oil update and the previous update both act like diodes. So batteries on the heavi watt side will deplete before batteries on the low output side do - this is by design - it prevents the low side circuit from seeing loads on other circuits and trying to power things backwards. It also allows you to have batteries for each circuit in the event that the generators go off, some systems can can retain battery power and others can simply go off. Think critical power requirements.

It's my understanding that transformers in the Outbreak update consume 120watts, thus adding to the power draw from the heaviewatt side ( where batteries and generators would be used to power this ). In the Oil upgrade, it appears that transformers do not use power - making things much simpler for calculating power requirements of the whole system.

[Botaxalim]

Here more easy explanation with pictures
Here 

[Lifegrow]

3 hours ago, Botaxalim said:

Here more easy explanation with pictures
Here 

You forgot the ever important 20kw line  

[Botaxalim]

Yeah forgot about that , my bad @Lifegrow, Well most common player , i can assume safely , none of them reach 20kw, unless they are expert player, so we dont need teach them how to achieve more than 20kw. My computer is lagging when running simultaneously hydrogen loop systems, breaching 20kw is like a dream for me till they start focus on optimizing the game

[The Plum Gate]

17 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

You forgot the ever important 20kw line  

 I'm curious, will those 4 charge the 1?

[Lifegrow]

Just now, Botaxalim said:

Yeah forgot about that , my bad @Lifegrow, Well most common player , i can assume safely , none of them reach 20kw, unless they are expert player, so we dont need teach them how to achieve more than 20kw. My computer is lagging when running simultaneously hydrogen loop systems, breaching 20kw is like a dream for me till they start focus on optimizing the game

Well I'm no expert, but I think any player that tries to build the aquatuner will soon run into problems if they only know about 1kw lines.

With a lot of the necessary systems in the experimental update, I think a big bulky 20kw line is much cleaner than running 5 circuits into the same space. I.e. these 28 fert makers are running from one transformer on a heavy watt wire.

[Lifegrow]

1 minute ago, The Plum Gate said:

 I'm curious, will those 4 charge the 1?

The 4 batteries to the left are just to signify your main power storage, with the battery on the right being your circuits buffer battery.

[The Plum Gate]

1 minute ago, Lifegrow said:

The 4 batteries to the left are just to signify your main power storage, with the battery on the right being your circuits buffer battery.

Indeed, but I'm wondering if the battery leveling mechanics  ( that don't exist ) as in one charging another, can be circumvented with a transformer in a setup similar to the one you posted.

[Lifegrow]

3 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

Indeed, but I'm wondering if the battery leveling mechanics  ( that don't exist ) as in one charging another, can be circumvented with a transformer in a setup similar to the one you posted.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but there is a priority system in place already.

For example - in the diagram above, the battery on the circuit side (right) would always be filled before the batteries on the power generation side (left).

 

[The Plum Gate]

5 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but there is a priority system in place already.

... if you were to charge batteries on the left heavy watt side and disconnect it from a power source, then connect a battery on the right, low watt side... would the newly connected battery charge from the batteries on the heavy watt side? 

[Lifegrow]

Just now, The Plum Gate said:

... if you were to charge batteries on the left  heavy eatt side and disconnect it from a power source, then connect a battery on the right, low watt side... would the newly connected battery charge from the batteries on the heavy watt side? 

Yes - the transformer routes the power, not the generators.

Thats why on my systems i'll usually have a "kickstart" bank of batteries isolated somewhere by a switch. If ever there's a problem and I have to disable my power gen, I want some power to jolt the system back into life after.

[Whispershade]

3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

With a lot of the necessary systems in the experimental update, I think a big bulky 20kw line is much cleaner than running 5 circuits into the same space. I.e. these 28 fert makers are running from one transformer on a heavy watt wire.

I've never really investigated it, but it never occured to me you could draw more than 1kw out of a transformer.

[eggsvbacon]

I just learned a bit about transformers, thanks.

[vonVile]

I've been having problems with Transformers. Why do 5 Batteries drain super fast when connected to a Transformer? I have 2 Methane Generators feeding the 5 Batteries power and they were always fully charged before I added the Heavi-Watt wire and Transformer. I feel I was better off allowing my circuits to over load and repairing them than using a Transformer. I admit I haven't divided my wiring system yet, but that shouldn't cause the Batteries to drain quickly when the Transformer has to deal with over 1000kw loads. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Botaxalim]

Transformer act like battery too , they always preserve 1000w or kj/s. Every animation kick up they suck it from nearby power source or batteries. Iam not sure what power drain you talking about , or maybe there is a new bug i didnt notice. Well just check on cycle summary report ,you can see how many power wasted, and better make more batteries

, in my case  i usually make batteries more than 20. Because we cant stop coal gen/nat gen or petrol gen unless dupe manually disable it, better save tht to batteries than going to waste. Also a note power in batteries do lose power if you not using the power in the loooooong time cycles.cmiiw

[Lifegrow]

8 hours ago, vonVile said:

I've been having problems with Transformers. Why do 5 Batteries drain super fast when connected to a Transformer? I have 2 Methane Generators feeding the 5 Batteries power and they were always fully charged before I added the Heavi-Watt wire and Transformer. I feel I was better off allowing my circuits to over load and repairing them than using a Transformer. I admit I haven't divided my wiring system yet, but that shouldn't cause the Batteries to drain quickly when the Transformer has to deal with over 1000kw loads. It just doesn't make any sense.

Got a save file or pics at least?

 

[The Plum Gate]

9 hours ago, vonVile said:

I've been having problems with Transformers. Why do 5 Batteries drain super fast when connected to a Transformer? I have 2 Methane Generators feeding the 5 Batteries power and they were always fully charged before I added the Heavi-Watt wire and Transformer. I feel I was better off allowing my circuits to over load and repairing them than using a Transformer. I admit I haven't divided my wiring system yet, but that shouldn't cause the Batteries to drain quickly when the Transformer has to deal with over 1000kw loads. It just doesn't make any sense.

In the Outbreak update the transformers use 120 watts of power. In the Oil update preview, they don't.

[vonVile]

On 10/1/2017 at 7:37 AM, Lifegrow said:

Got a save file or pics at least?

 

I figured out what the problem was. One of the Gas Generators weren't connected. I connected it, but then something weird happened where the Dupes built standard Wire disconnecting it again. So I had to deconstruct that and order them to build Heavi-Watt again and I watched them do it right this time.