Why I don't use caves

[DarkXero]

Great explanation.

19 minutes ago, CarlZalph said:

Since the client and server are the same device, but still going through a router, there is a delay and so C->S and S->C values are not zero but not too high depending on the router/networking driver.

I didn't notice a difference when hosting a server with caves with my internet on, versus disconnecting my pc from the network and making a caves server in offline mode. So I don't think it's going through the router in this case.

25 minutes ago, CarlZalph said:

At 60Hz tick rate the frames are 16.6- ms of delay and as such you should see more responsive actions with the worst case giving at least 33.3- ms of delay.

I can notice the difference compared to 15. I enjoy the 60 more.

Too bad Wilson vibrates when running around (e.g on roads) without movement prediction.

But you can fight perfectly.

With movement prediction enabled, you won't vibrate, but you will perceive a delay on your hits, and things like spiders will have a extremely tiny range boost or something. Maybe something interferes and I don't out of range fast enough.

I killed 20 spiders, vibrating without prediction, without taking a hit, and 10 spiders, with prediction, almost dying.

 

For people that want to try and set the tick rate to 60:

[CarlZalph]

1 hour ago, DarkXero said:

I didn't notice a difference when hosting a server with caves with my internet on, versus disconnecting my pc from the network and making a caves server in offline mode. So I don't think it's going through the router in this case.

It'd be negligible at best.

My router from the late 80s is giving me ~2-3ms delay, whereas my other router from early 2k is sitting below 1ms.

[HomShaBom]

On 12/5/2016 at 1:46 AM, GiddyGuy said:

Okay so like...you sure they weren't trying to hype up the new item, or maybe even hint what you could use the bundled supplies for? Also about the latency it's not really that hard to learn how to deal with it, a lot of players are very good (As long as you have lag compensation turned to none, the game is unplayable without it turned to none.) when it comes to DST latency

Also note for the devs, if you were truly saying you didn't see too many people having caves enabled then it's probably because most can't handle them and just play without them, at least that's my theory since I myself can not play with caves enabled.

All I can do is take them at their word. If they didn't mean what they said you can't blame me for not reading their minds.

[nome]

8 hours ago, CarlZalph said:

My router from the late 80s is giving me ~2-3ms delay, whereas my other router from early 2k is sitting below 1ms.

Yeah, you won't see a lot of ms of latency, SHOULD be _well_ under 1ms, what delay you will see will be due to the tick missing mentioned above. OP with problems hosting with caves might want to try a higher tick rate?

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

19 hours ago, nome said:

There's a bit of a contradiction in what you're saying - as I've already explained, physics prevents any game from "fixing" lag. All you can do is hide it. Movement prediction is our attempt at doing just that. You can argue it's not doing a very good job, but it's the best we've got so far - shoehorning netcode into a single player game isn't simple. The best techniques require the ability to rewind the sim and play different inputs, which we don't have.

Simply put, disabling prediction makes the game better overall. Obscuring lag doesn't fix anything, so what's the point of it? I can only think of a few times when I had needed to use it rather than not having prediction on, but most of the time, disabling prediction made everything clearer and seem much more instantaneous. In short, prediction worsens the experience through rubber-banding and creates combat near impossible very often (and again, this is true even if you have everything running smoothly without it). So, again, why do you have it enabled by default? Ask most players who know about this, you'll get the response I've given you twice now; no prediction enabled in DST is generally better than prediction being enabled.

EDIT: Well, isn't this convenient; DarkXero explains this exact kind of problem with enabled prediction:

12 hours ago, DarkXero said:

I killed 20 spiders, vibrating without prediction, without taking a hit, and 10 spiders, with prediction, almost dying.

[Chaquinn]

Honestly, I've never really noticed any lag except for a small bit when you first load it. its not really a problem for me...

 

Caves are literally my life

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Obscuring lag doesn't fix anything, so what's the point of it?

To make the game look like it's running more smoothly. You might be diehard against movement prediction, but there's people who actually like it. In servers with a good ping I have no issue with it enabled. I'll take the occasional rubberbanding over walking past my intended destination and into something dangerous like a spider nest or a tentacle.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

14 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

To make the game look like it's running more smoothly. You might be diehard against movement prediction, but there's people who actually like it. In servers with a good ping I have no issue with it enabled. I'll take the occasional rubberbanding over walking past my intended destination and into something dangerous like a spider nest or a tentacle.

But it makes combat pretty much an impossibility? You might be solving some problems if you're in a server with a bad pig/the player has bad ping, but you're creating new ones along the way. And because combat is a large part of the game and becomes near impossible to manage like normal, especially if you're trying to kite something, this is a really bad drawback of the prediction, so still, why enable it by default? Wouldn't it be wiser to not do so so that players can by default have decent combat experience in place of the game looking like it's running smoothly?

[Sinister_Fang]

15 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

But it makes combat pretty much an impossibility? You might be solving some problems if you're in a server with a bad pig/the player has bad ping, but you're creating new ones along the way. And because combat is a large part of the game and becomes near impossible to manage like normal, especially if you're trying to kite something, this is a really bad drawback of the prediction, so still, why enable it by default? Wouldn't it be wiser to not do so so that players can by default have decent combat experience in place of the game looking like it's running smoothly?

Again, assuming I'm on a server with a decent connection, kiting really isn't all that difficult. It's a lot different then DS would be, but it's nowhere near impossible. It's just the timing is a little different is all. I've tried to disable movement prediction before, but it just didn't work for me. I was already used to all the quirks of movement prediction and was capable of dealing with it.

In the end though, it's an option we can change easily enough. Both enabling and disabling it have their pros and cons.

[DarkXero]

4 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

I'll take the occasional rubberbanding over walking past my intended destination and into something dangerous like a spider nest or a tentacle.

In the end, it doesn't even matter. You either rubberband into a spider nest, or you see yourself walking into it.

But this is to be expected with a 200+ ms ping. It's manageable.

 

I would like to solve the "Wilson vibrating while running" issue (it's nauseating) with 60Hz and no movement prediction.

It would give the best responsiveness for a local server, with practically no downsides.

Enabling prediction solves the vibrations, but introduces small delays on hitting and changing directions to run away.

[Mday]

1 hour ago, DarkXero said:

In the end, it doesn't even matter. You either rubberband into a spider nest, or you see yourself walking into it.

But this is to be expected with a 200+ ms ping. It's manageable.

I suppose if the game trust the client, then you could have the server rubberbanding instead of the client rubberbanding.

I mean if I see the spider den and reacted to it, and the game/server isn't gona respond to my input unill some 0.5 secs later, then I can't help but to think the game isn't very good at hiding the lag.

[CaptainDeadpools]

@HomShaBom No Caves ? D: Please don't hesitate to contact Captains Lantern Industries if you're in need of a Lantern !!

[Pyr0mrcow]

Yea...it could be better, but it's not that bad. Heck, even with the movement prediction/lack thereof...
Without it, you're predicting when your past movement commands will go through. Upside of seeing your exact movement, but only after it happens.
With it, you're predicting how far ahead your current movement is. Upside of seeing your estimated movement before it occurs.
I actually prefer movement prediction being on, personally. Only time I turn it off is when doing something like cutting a mass of trees, since spam-click actions seem more precise with it off; the game seemingly assimilates them into 'perform this action constantly'.
Other than that, once you learn to predict the lag of each mode, the game is about the same, though it looks smoother...rather, I'm not so sure that much different is actually happening other than the spam-click change, regarding what information you send to the server. Heck, I can bait things into attacking air from the first strike with prediction on; it's all about which mode fits you better.

[Electroely]

From my viewpoint, I see that movement prediction is for those who are exploring / base making, and movement prediction off is for those who wanna fight. I found out that if you have Movement Prediction off, the Waypoints mod will give you an option to toggle it when u open up their menu by pressing X (because the mod can't function if movement prediction is off). What I'd do is keep it enabled most of the time, and when I'm about to fight, I disable it. Just a tip for whoever's interested.

[Pyr0mrcow]

...huh, didn't notice that. I like that mod even more now.

I actually prefer movement prediction on when fighting. I can see the futuuuuure. OooOoOoo.