Does Wes make sense in DST?

[Faintly Macabre]

Personally I don't feel like Wes fits into DST very well. The concept of a character whose sole purpose is to provide the player with a challenge seems kind of counterintuitive to what I think each character should do, which is bring something advantageous to the group as a whole. And I can't say it feels like balloons fit the bill very well. There are some already dubious outliers to this model, like Wolfgang (one guy doing double damage is advantageous, I guess, but it feels like an incidental contribution more than anything) or WX (dude powers up consuming a scarce resource, yaaaay) but none of them are wholly disadvantageous like Wes is.

I think he should be changed to at least have something significant to offer to offset his burden on a party. Or am I just severely underestimating balloons? I know they do have some applications, but especially considering the high sanity cost I just don't think they're worth having Wes along for a ride.

[Soto8969]

So the character that is supposed to be used as a "hardcore" mode doesn't help the group?

[Arlesienne]

Personally I welcome Weses into my party with open arms. They most of the time are not newbies or griefers. They inspire altruism in other players (everybody, keep that cute mime boy alive!). Balloons are fun around the base as decoration and traps (we have a steady income of sanity regainers by then, fishsticks, froggle bunwiches, honey ham, bacon and eggs). And any triumphant Wes gives the group a whopping dapperness boost!

Just tell me: can you resist that Leon the Professional look???

[Faintly Macabre]

9 minutes ago, Soto8969 said:

So the character that is supposed to be used as a "hardcore" mode doesn't help the group?

I feel like you're trying to "duh" me here, but the entire point of the post is I don't think that makes sense for DST.

[SinisterSmiles]

I keep seeing a lot of these posts lately. "Should X be changed for DST because X doesn't provide a benefit to the team?" 

Personally I feel that a team can do well with any experienced player (yes even a Wes can help) but it depends completely on the player themselves. Anyone can collect resources, contribute to a base, help kill mobs but some characters just have an easier time than others. 

The only useless characters are the players themselves. 

#allWesarebeautiful

[Faintly Macabre]

4 minutes ago, SinisterSmiles said:

I keep seeing a lot of these posts lately. "Should X be changed for DST because X doesn't provide a benefit to the team?" 

Personally I feel that a team can do well with any experienced player (yes even a Wes can help) but it depends completely on the player themselves. Anyone can collect resources, contribute to a base, help kill mobs but some characters just have an easier time than others. 

The only useless characters are the players themselves. 

#allWesarebeautiful

Apples and oranges; this post isn't about the fact that he doesn't add to the team, it's about the fact that he wholly detracts from it, with nothing to give back. A team can do well composed entirely of Weses if they're experienced, but that doesn't change the fact that he's almost nothing but a burden.

[GiddyGuy]

@TheHalcyonOne but...if we didn't have Wes we wouldn't have parties, PLEASE tell me how I would throw parties without a hardcore Wes player making balloons, if Wes wasn't a hardcore character then no one would want to play him cause all the (fun) hardness would not be there anymore, and have you not look at how cute he is? He does air bicycles...AIR BICYCLES!

#allWesarebeautiful

[Bebbit]

1 minute ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

Apples and oranges; this post isn't about the fact that he doesn't add to the team, it's about the fact that he wholly detracts from it, with nothing to give back. A team can do well composed entirely of Weses if they're experienced, but that doesn't change the fact that he's almost nothing but a burden.

Neither of those things are true, though. A Wes player can take care of themselves and their team, they just have to put more effort into it. While the same player will definitely be able to add more as, say, Wilson, that doesn't mean he won't help as Wes. If they are capable of gathering their own food instead of leeching off of others', then they are capable of adding to the team. Just because he isn't as effective as other characters doesn't mean he isn't effective.

#allWesarebeautiful ^{[citation needed]}

[Mudley]

I wish people posted seriously in topics that make those type of questions, besides relying on dank maymays...

[Bebbit]

2 minutes ago, Mudley said:

I wish people posted seriously in topics that make those type of questions, besides relying on dank maymays...

I don't see any maymays here. You want some? ; )

[Faintly Macabre]

8 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

if Wes wasn't a hardcore character then no one would want to play him

That doesn't make any sense. There are 9 other characters that aren't "hardcore" and people play all of them.

@Bebbit, I meant comparatively. I think it's pretty obvious I didn't mean to suggest that he sits completely still and eats all your food.

[Bebbit]

1 minute ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

That doesn't make any sense. There are 9 other characters that aren't "hardcore" and people play all of them.

@Bebbit, I meant comparatively. I think it's pretty obvious I didn't mean to suggest that he sits completely still and eats all your food.

Ah, I understand.

Anyways, I don't think he means that nobody wants to play non-hardcore characters, I think he means being hardcore is Wes' selling point as a character. That's not exactly good for DST, so I'd assume people play him for his fabulous aesthetic.

[GiddyGuy]

12 minutes ago, Bebbit said:

so I'd assume people play him for his fabulous aesthetic.

You sir/and or madam have fabulous taste in mime fashion.

14 minutes ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

That doesn't make any sense. There are 9 other characters that aren't "hardcore" and people play all of them.

Sorry if your English isn't your first language, then I'm sorry for confusing you, but at least @Bebbit understands so s/he can tell you.

[Serph]

Serious answer: Technically not, but if they balanced Wes in DST then the "Wes is god" circlejerk wouldn't be fun anymore. That's why everyone is against it.

I did a topic asking the devs about this a good time ago and they don't know exactly what to do with him. Joew said:
 

Quote

So I don't have a direct answer to this, but I think something is important to notice. I am speaking personally here as I don't know where we all stand in terms of balance right now. 

DS characters were never intended to be balanced as equals. Wes was fully intended to be kind of a hard mode character. He is at a disadvantage and that's pretty much all there is to it. 

I know, for a fact that if we were to "balance" Wes in a way that made him "equal" to everybody else; a lot of people would be upset by such a change. Any changes to balance up to this point have been to adjust a perceived problem. In general in terms of balance, characters were made for an interesting experience, not so much to be equal.

As somebody who has worked in MMOs almost exclusively before coming to Klei, I really think this is something interesting that I would like to explore more as we grow DST in the future. I don't know how I feel about making everybody balanced to be equal; I don't know that that's really in the spirit of the game. So, then how do we "balance" in interesting ways?

Obviously this is weird in an online game, right? I mean, up till now as players we have always thought of balance as meaning equal, where that is not the case in Don't Starve. But does it have to be equal? Can we help players choose know that they should pick Wes for the challenge? Is it something we need to change, or is it something we need to encourage?

We do have plans for some pvp oriented changes to the game in the future, so I am very interested in knowing more about how others feel about this. Again, this is all me here, I am sure other devs have different opinions here; but we would love your thoughts. 

 

 

[DwerBomb]

The only change I really want to see added is for his balloons to rise the sanity of the players around him. This way the good player that choose awes for challenge could help his friends by raising their sanity at the cost of his own.

 

But other than that he's perfect <3

[MikoWebster]

I see no issue with Wes. He's pretty adorable and while he doesn't have a lot of game-based boosts, he certainly psychologically spurs me on. ^-^

[Auth]

Wes is for the good players and the noobs who die fast who like his funny and cute look and for the people who think they're good but are actually only moochers. Do I hate Wes? No. But do I think he's entirely good? No, I don't. He's a real curse, or, just another person. He's difficult in that, yes, he can help out, but so can a wilson, and that wilson takes less resources to keep alive. Wes can make balloons, which look cool, sure, but they are joke items in that their use isn't really a big one other than base decor and really weak stunlock traps(That expires too fast to truly do anything with)

 

Wes doesn't need a buff, that makes him not as hard. But he needs a new perk, in my opinion, that is a little beneficial maybe not to him but more of to his team. Making him a healing characters actually makes a lot of sense, he's harder to keep alive but he can actually incredibly benefit his TEAM but not himself.  New types of balloons, maybe? Balloon Bandaids seems to make sense for me. And yes, Wes as-is can help a team, but as I said, so can a Wilson.

[Arlesienne]

25 minutes ago, MikoWebster said:

I see no issue with Wes. He's pretty adorable and while he doesn't have a lot of game-based boosts, he certainly psychologically spurs me on. ^-^

See? The power of that pout! Already raising sanity - and better than Glommer ice cream (right, a horrible idea, but both give you a serious boost, sooo... fridge fallacies here), because it affects the player instead of just the PC!

And balloons should give sanity. Yup. Wes cannot bilocate.

[Faintly Macabre]

3 hours ago, GiddyGuy said:

Sorry if your English isn't your first language, then I'm sorry for confusing you

Irony.

What you said made no sense. "If he's not hardcore people won't play him" is obviously not true because other characters aren't hardcore and are obviously played. If he stopped being the hardcore character, he'd just stop being played by people who want to play the hardcore character. He'd just get played by people who liked his new selling point.

3 hours ago, Serph said:

Serious answer: Technically not, but if they balanced Wes in DST then the "Wes is god" circlejerk wouldn't be fun anymore. That's why everyone is against it.

Thing is, I don't necessarily think he needs to be "balanced" in the sense that he needs to have his disadvantages offset, I just think there should be a reason to want to have him around (other than looks, apparently). As it is, he's just a drain compared to other characters a player could bring to the group, without anything particularly interesting to add to it.

[DarkXero]

14 minutes ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

Thing is, I don't necessarily think he needs to be "balanced" in the sense that he needs to have his disadvantages offset, I just think there should be a reason to want to have him around (other than looks, apparently). As it is, he's just a drain compared to other characters a player could bring to the group, without anything particularly interesting to add to it.

He brings balloons for base decor.

Which is as much as a Willow that doesn't craft lighters, a Wickerbottom that doesn't bother crafting books, a Wendy that gets her Abigail killed by giants, a Woodie that doesn't chop wood at all, a Wolfgang that runs away from fights, a Wigfrid that doesn't craft her helmet for others, can bring.

Wes is only a drain for the unskilled.

[Faintly Macabre]

If you guys like Wes the way he is that's fine, but "only a drain if you're unskilled" or "only players are useless, not characters" arguments are bunk. You have a finite number of players playing at any given time, and anybody who's playing Wes is contributing 25% less damage than he could easily be and requires 25% more hunger restoration to keep alive. And he brings... base decor, apparently. I don't think that makes sense for Don't Starve Together. If you do... okie-doke.

[ADinosaur]

It appears most people arn't getting what the post is trying to say. What the post is trying to say is that maybe Wes should have a benefit that helps a team. Sure any character can gather resources and make bases ect. ect., but each character brings something to the table in DST. Every character but Wes. Wilson doesn't require as many items to survive in winter and gives beard hairs. Willow can give everyone a lighter and distract shadow monsters with Bernie. Wolfgang can tank monsters. Wendy can grind mobs with Abigail. You're starting to get the point. But what about Wes? What does he bring? Balloons that are almost useless. That's it.

[TalZahn]

I like the idea of Wes bringing something to the party but not for himself. It does keep him a challenging character, but still helps the group.

I was thinking maybe his balloons could take the aggro off mobs, but then that would be beneficial for him. Unless... it makes them aggro him when they pass the balloon (or pop it?)? A helpful thing for friends with low health being chased.

I like the idea of him being some sort of healer to others only, but it'd have to be severely punishing to him. Maybe balloons could have random effects so it's a crapshoot of hindering or beneficial effects. And none of the benefitial helping him in particular.

-Certain balloons giving a passive sanity buff when close up (like glommer, but less sanity gained by itself).

-Certain balloons DRAINING sanity around it. With popping it causing a sanity drain as well.

- A balloon that heals when popped instead of hurting, but it just hurts wes if he's near it or he pops it.

- Another balloon that when popped, causes nearby objects to catch on fire. Just smoldering though so it can't be used offensively too easily (or griefing wise).

It would also be not bad if just being near a Wes passively gave those around him some sort of buff. (Sanity regen? Hunger slowed? VERY SLIGHT movement plus?) Obviously wouldn't work on other Wes's though, nor something that could be taken advantage of with multiple Wes's.

I never had the chance to play Wes (not unlocked in Single player, never played in DST), so I don't know much about his ballooning in general. Just heard it can be used for chain reaction damage that generally isn't worth usually.

[Mudley]

5 minutes ago, TalZahn said:

I like the idea of Wes bringing something to the party but not for himself. It does keep him a challenging character, but still helps the group.

I actually really like this idea, it will bring something useful for the others around him, but for the player himself, he would still have only disadvantages.

[SuperPsiPower]

5 hours ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

Personally I don't feel like Wes fits into DST very well.

Join my games and i'll convince you otherwise  I will hypnotize you with my special arts of Balloonomancy.