dst Trade Inn Changes

[osmRhodey]

Trade Inn Issues

All righty so the Trade Inn was announced but the ideas definitely seem a bit off.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Issues:

• The skins are an endless resource and giving them monetary value will bring problems.
  • Sure there are lots of things like this in the real world but this on a resource that you randomly gather and has no true worth anywhere else but to random people.
  • People will simply take time to have DST open to farm the skins and sell them off for the money.
  • Following last bullet; None of this money has any support to the company. Community sold market items give some of the money to the seller and the rest is taken by Steam as sales tax.
     
• Using the Steam Marketplace to sell the skins is not good.
  • You could easily not use them. Use an inner system trade network.
  • Ideas for this will be stated later.
     
• Community made skin items are strongly going to detract from any lore you want to set or that fans have.
  • Do Not let community made items override the Steam Workshop. That will have so many detrimental effects, aside from other issues I'm going to state.(Modders will cry)
  • Be warned that opening up skin making to the public will allow lots of submissions of not kid friendly ideas and lots of odd things that will be utter goofiness.
  • _{Don't lay off the art team. Don't be Valve. Don't be them. They're falling into a trash pit. We love you guys.}
     
• The Trade Inn is a bit taxing and there can be different ways for that to work.
  • It's not horrible but 9 is a bit taxing when you only get 4 drops per week.
  • Ideas for this will be stated later.
     

Ideas:

• Steam Marketplace is a bad place to sell.
  • The Steam Marketplace gives no funds to Indie developers. No money will be given back to the company. Please understand that the Community market does not work that way.
  • Make an in-game or something similar trading store with set trading values. (ie. 4 commons for a classy someone's selling)
  • Make trading an in-game only feature but don't let it be a spammable feature. (ie. two people at a wardrobe can trade items but have a timer before it's allowed again)
     
• Trade Inn actually has a good layout and could have a much better way of working.
  • Instead of trading in a solid 9 items I was given a better idea. The more items you add, the higher chance of getting a higher tier item.
  • Explanation;
    • Trade in 1 item, get an item of lesser quality.
    • Trade in 2 items, get an item of same quality or lower.
    • As you trade in more items the chances to get higher quality items increase until you hit 9 which would be something like always confirmed higher quality.
       
• If you really want to have a community made items thing let it be held IN THE FORUMS.
  • It has more watchful eyes than the workshop can have.
  • Have it more or less like a timed event where things MIGHT be chosen.
  • Make it a rule that there can be no story written for the item. No background info or head canon info.
  • Don't let them make everything because we've seen where that's taking some companies.
  • BE SUPER CAREFUL HERE. IF YOU GUYS ARE EVER GOING TO TELL A STORY (which we all would love, mostly in puzzle form) THIS CAN REALLY MESS WITH IT.
     
• Don't give monetary value to the items though. The forums are already going insane with selling these things for real money as it is.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are an Indie company. You aren't Valve or EA. Please don't try and act like them.
We love you and we, as the fanbase, would love to see you prosper even further.
You've had rough patches and green pastures. Just be careful where you trod.
Don't make yourself lose money off of a silly thing that you guys had previously said you'd never make.

     Good luck Klei!!

EDIT: I have already spoken with multiple people. I understand the Steam marketplace much more._{(I had not fully read up on this topic prior and that is my fault)} Thank you people for bringing it up and to Weirdobob for trying to explain it.
The marketplace no longer concerns me but thank you for stating your opinions. Anything listed is still a concern or idea that I have.

[osmRhodey]

Please do understand that these ideas are open ended. These are mostly worries and concerns over what is currently going to be implemented.
I wish to see the growth of a company that drew me into a love for more survival games than I could ever think of.

Please keep it mature!

Thank you!

[WillowCrocker]

Well stated my friend.

It just astounds me that they're actually going through with items becoming marketable after, and I know I saw this several times, stating that they would NEVER do that. Tradable, yes. Marketable, no way.

I just feel like this is all going to go down the same road as TF2/CS:GO went down and I don't want to see that for such a blooming, budding company like Klei. 

[osmRhodey]

6 minutes ago, WillowCrocker said:

Well stated my friend.

It just astounds me that they're actually going through with items becoming marketable after, and I know I saw this several times, stating that they would NEVER do that. Tradable, yes. Marketable, no way.

I just feel like this is all going to go down the same road as TF2/CS:GO went down and I don't want to see that for such a blooming, budding company like Klei. 

Well that's what also astounded many people in the past before DST was ever announced.

Klei for the longest time had said over and over and over again they would never include a multiplayer game. They were NEVER EVER going to do multiplayer. Yer here we are.
That was a success though in most eyes. I love trying to survive with friends, it keeps me happy and entertained because friends make games more friend to me.

I very much worry the same things friend.
I loved the includement of skins, yay not everyone looks the same. But selling those off when they have absolutely no value anywhere else and where they can make no money off of it at all seems like a poor decision.
A trading/bartering system that they have control over would, and probably still does, have a much better and more stable build.

also hi i didn't know you had a forum account!! .w.

[Muche]

It seems to me that many of the points have already been discussed in the http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/63641-how-skins-couldve-been-innocent-and-trade-inn-discussion/ thread.

[osmRhodey]

Just now, Muche said:

It seems to me that many of the points have already been discussed in the http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/63641-how-skins-couldve-been-innocent-and-trade-inn-discussion/ thread.

Yes but it appears that thread simply went off the deep end. At least as far as I can see.

In all honesty many of the ideas stated there were fantastic!
2:1 would have been much better, especially considering how few drops you get a week.

But then also came the info that these will be sold off of the Steam Community Market which will simply open paths of farming skins and selling them off to obtain money and buy other things leaving Klei sitting with smaller income. :c
Not that I really see any money being made by this tactic because once everyone starts selling the prices will, most likely, start plummeting...But looking back to the TF2 area on the market this still worries me.

[Muche]

14 minutes ago, osmRhodey said:

2:1 would have been much better, especially considering how few drops you get a week.
 

My impression was that they are starting slow (i.e. 4 drop per week, 9:1 trade) and later might tweak it in favor of better ratios. Can you imagine the outcry of the players if they started fast (e.g. unlimited drop per week, 2:1 trade) and then realized that it's not good and cut back?

[osmRhodey]

1 minute ago, Muche said:

My impression was that they are starting slow (i.e. 4 drop per week, 9:1 trade) and later might tweak it in favor of better ratios. Can you imagine the outcry of the players if they started fast (e.g. unlimited drop per week, 2:1 trade) and then realized that it's not good and cut back?

Honestly yeah that would be a horrendous issue. But it was a good idea regardless.
This was the reason I left anything like that out of this. The 9 block system has potential, especially if you could use the trade in feature no matter the amount put in but simply has a different effect depending on amount. :'D
It would be something like a small risk system and allow you to expand your repertoire easily.

[Not_Wilson]

I was about to write an open letter to Klei about all this but you've managed to pretty much condense everything I was going to talk about it a few bullets. 

 

The sad part is as slippery-sloped as it may sound, yes this will end up like TF2. This is exactly how TF2 started hat culture, which caused a collapse in the lore and the TF2 team. 

 

I love you Klei, you have made an amazing series of games unique to the market, and I believe you honestly do care about what your userbase has to say.

But right now, what you're doing is not going to benefit the game at all.

None of the money put into the market is going to help you, it's going to go straight to Valve. Unless if you guys owe Valve a large sum of money, which I don't think is the case, making skins marketable is completely unnecessary.

If someone wants to leave Don't Starve Together, they can trade the items off to a friend or just straight up stop playing.

And I want to re-iterate what Willow said.

14 minutes ago, WillowCrocker said:

It just astounds me that they're actually going through with items becoming marketable after, and I know I saw this several times, stating that they would NEVER do that.

Klei promised us that these things would never be marketable, I remember them saying it over and over in stream. That was the only thing that made me less uncomfortable about this whole skins thing aside from being able to stick out from 3 other Wilsons that I'm camping with.

And I want to point out some more concerns.

• Your money is not going to Klei through this. Your money is going to the seller and to Valve. You are not supporting Klei. Stop thinking you are supporting Klei from this. You are not supporting Klei.
  • Valve is a monopoly. Their interest is not to support the devs that they supply games from. Valve wants money, money, money. 
• Adding a market such as this will end up discriminating against poorer players, and creates elitism. We see this already in Team Fortress 2.
• You cannot say that you need skill to farm skins because you can literally just c_godmode() into the console, spawn a science machine and wait. You don't have to apply yourself to get these skins.
  • @JoeW I'm mentioning you for this one because of importance, but if this is going to stay, I recommend that the system implemented should at the least check to see if you're in godmode or not. This will literally be a sink or swim issue if you guys [for some reason] decide to keep this marketable system.
• As a modder, I'm begging on my knees and pleading to you that the workshop does NOT become a place to vote in new skins.

[osmRhodey]

If nothing from this thread is really heard, which I can understand if you don't wish to be a part of it don't do it, I wish to at least be heard on one part.

The Trade Inn could definitely benefit from a different system.

• 1 item = lower tier
• 2 items = lower, same, or 5% higher tier
• 3 items = 75% lower, same, or 10% higher tier
• etc etc etc

It would be really interesting, different, and really open up what items you have.

 

Just please do be careful with what you do. It would be worrisome for someone to monopolize off of the market and you guys going broke.
Good luck again!

[osmRhodey]

Bump

[Serph]

I dont think most players are aware of how the trade inn will work, i'm sure when it comes it might cause an uproar, not because the 9:1 trade is too expensive but because skins will lose a lot of their "monetary value". 9:1 doesn't work for me, it's simply not worthy, i'd rather find a random person and trade some useless items i have. The devs already said they plan to change either the drop rate or trade inn, which either way, will impact the "economy" and/or upset players who used the market before. 

That's what happens when you make everything marketable. It's about the money. No fun allowed

16 hours ago, DextersComicLaboratory said:

 

• @JoeW I'm mentioning you for this one because of importance, but if this is going to stay, I recommend that the system implemented should at the least check to see if you're in godmode or not. This will literally be a sink or swim issue if you guys [for some reason] decide to keep this marketable system.

What difference does it make? With proper world configuration and mods, you can easily stay idle forever without console commands.

[Not_Wilson]

16 minutes ago, Serph said:

What difference does it make? With proper world configuration and mods, you can easily stay idle forever without console commands.

The only other solution would be to make a memory intensive ticking system to see if you're moving around instead of idling, similar to TF2. You can no longer idle on servers to get items in that game. Sadly, to do that, the engine would have to detect a lot of things, and some machines wouldn't be able to handle that.

And even then, you can still get around that. I think that by discussing this, it's showing how easily exploited this system can be.

[osmRhodey]

I'm going to edit the main post. Since recent information was given the monetary thing is completely up to the people and the developers.(I still don't trust it at all) My only real care and changes in any way is to the general sense of how some of the Trade Inn and such work.

Monetary value put to something that has no actual value means nothing to me so all in all I love the Trade Inn!! I just wish it was done differently. I'm not going to be paying for anything so shrug haha.

And yeah the idling thing is a bit of an issue because it simply breaks the market further than it already is.
No set reasonable values. Nothing that makes any logical sense.
This is why I hate the market place, all it does is cause unnecessary issues, but it's not my choice. The market can just flappy bird it's way through the wants and and demands of monetary currencies.

[acemurdock]

Yeah I am not a fan of the marketable skins either. I'm a bit out of the loop, what pushed that decision to go through in the first place? 
I agree the trading idea is GREAT, love that I can get rid of the skins I don't use for something better!
But being able to buy it takes all the fun out of finding a rare drop :< 

EDIT: Oh and what's wrong with letting people create skins? I would like to do so. I'm sure they could just do it like character mods, where you can choose what's allowed on the server right? I don't see why that's any different. 

[Auth]

6 minutes ago, acemurdock said:

what pushed that decision to go through in the first place?

 

People were punching and socking eachother in the gut screaming and groaning for "Good Deals", throwing keys and money and I even saw someone offer their firstborn child for some skins.

Then JoeW said "btw we would like money too WE SHALL END CORRUPTION, SORTA" and the end

[osmRhodey]

I was actually messaged on that fact that they had been considering marketing the stuff prior. It's been a thing they've been considering for a while, according to Joe.

The only issue, that apparently no one is thinking of...Is that it doesn't support the company. An INDIE company.
Community market goes to Steam and the COMMUNITY. The funds don't go out to the companies, that's not how the market works.(unless a company can tell me otherwise and show me evidence)

I just, don't trust the market. The prices are weird and over the top. Things like the TF2 items already have prices and yet some people try to sell things for more than they're worth. The skins have no worth and people cannot make any that have any sense.

Maybe one day. Who knows.

*go back to editing*

[leonseye]

1) Klei gets a cut of every transaction made on the Marketplace.

2) The prices for the skins are FAR, FAR lower than they were when they were not marketable.  $50 for a Wigfrid GoH before the Marketplace, $10 and dropping after.

You can buy most skins for under a dollar.

Most of this thread seems pretty unfounded if you actually look at the reality of the situation.

/shrug

[Auth]

19 minutes ago, osmRhodey said:

The only issue, that apparently no one is thinking of...Is that it doesn't support the company. An INDIE company.
Community market goes to Steam and the COMMUNITY. The funds don't go out to the companies, that's not how the market works.(unless a company can tell me otherwise and show me evidence)

Actually, when you list an item on the steam market, that fee it adds is 50% steam and 50% the company that made the object (so TF2 is 2x the money for VALVe, DST is only the normal amount to VALVe with the other half going to Klei, and the other chunk to whoever listed it.)

 Look at this, here. That means Klei is getting $1.50 from that, which isn't actually that much. I've seen some games where the rates are extreme....

[osmRhodey]

Just now, leonseye said:

1) Klei gets a cut of every transaction made on the Marketplace.

I have been reading up on this. I've already made the point multiple times in the resent hours that I'm changing the post. I honestly have very little care for the marketplace. I do not trust it as the people setting prices vary so wildly it's insane. That and there is no true point to purchasing such things, imo.

I was already messaged prior by a developer prior, the info has been read upon, I understand. Thank you.

Just now, leonseye said:

2) The prices for the skins are FAR, FAR lower than they were when they were not marketable.  $50 for a Wigfrid GoH before the Marketplace, $10 and dropping after.

For the moment. But seeing how this is also means Klei actually isn't making much money off of the items anymore. They obtain 10% and Valve obtains 5% while the rest is given to the seller. It's a ebb and flow and the market will most likely tank.

Who does what at this point has no affect to me. They wish to do this, then they shall do it.

Just now, leonseye said:

Most of this thread seems pretty unfounded if you actually look at the reality of the situation.

The thread is an open discussion. Nothing is unfounded. It's simply a distrust in how things are going and possible ideas to be taken in to consideration.

I get it, lots of people would rather pay for items that have no true value, that's not my place. And again, in the past hours I've stated I understand this and am currently editing the post.

So thank you but not really.

The reality of the situation is this is a very unstable situation and has no current working model.
CS;GO  TF2 and the like all have their items already with a value. The skins do not. They are random free drops.
A barter system would have been much better. But again these are my opinions and concerns. I do not wish to see the company fall under.

[leonseye]

That seems like a pretty hostile response for an "open discussion".

/shrug

Btw, you can still barter.  The trade forum is still right there.  You still don't have to use the marketplace, ever.

[osmRhodey]

4 minutes ago, Weirdobob said:

Actually, when you list an item on the steam market, that fee it adds is 50% steam and 50% the company that made the object (so TF2 is 2x the money for VALVe, DST is only the normal amount to VALVe with the other half going to Klei, and the other chunk to whoever listed it.)

 Look at this, here. That means Klei is getting $1.50 from that, which isn't actually that much. I've seen some games where the rates are extreme....

 

Quote

Valve and the company behind the game each get a percentage of the final sale price, depending on the game (generally 5% for Valve, 10% for the game's creators, minimum one cent each); the seller gets the rest (That is why there are two input boxes, one for "Buyer Pays" and one for "You Receive")

It's a 15% taken from what you sell it for. I understand this now, I have been reading up on it all.

Valve takes 5% and Klei would receive 10%. This is of the selling price.

Thank you though.

[osmRhodey]

Just now, leonseye said:

That seems like a pretty hostile response for an "open discussion".

/shrug

Btw, you can still barter.  The trade forum is still right there.  You still don't have to use the marketplace, ever.

I have not been hostile though?

I had literally stated that I understand this. I am not referring to the trade forums, I am talking overall.
Items with no value suddenly given a random seller value is an unstable build.
But overall I have given up worrying on the marketplace. I've already spoken that I do not have any concern on the market anymore. I've already spoken with a developer on the matter and already stated this fact as well. They've told me the information and it's fine.

What they do is their choice.
My only real concern to even be taken into consideration is the Trade Inn and how it works. Sadly this will likely make skins utterly worthless in the end but as I see it, it would make some things more fun. Nothing is known until it happens.

[leonseye]

2 minutes ago, osmRhodey said:

I have not been hostile though?

I had literally stated that I understand this. I am not referring to the trade forums, I am talking overall.
Items with no value suddenly given a random seller value is an unstable build.

I'm curious why you didn't make this thread when the items became available to trade at all, then?  That is when they were given random seller value.

3 minutes ago, osmRhodey said:

Sadly this will likely make skins utterly worthless in the end

Now I'm confused.  It's a problem if they have enough worth for people to buy them, but it's also a problem if they have no worth?

[osmRhodey]

1 minute ago, leonseye said:

I'm curious why you didn't make this thread when the items became available to trade at all, then?  That is when they were given random seller value.

I was never made aware of them being marketed until just recently but seeing as the developers wished to do this then I am fine with what they decide to do. I still hold mild concerns as I still do not trust marketing something as such.
With the trading section of the forums I was only aware of the absurd trades but only recently made aware people were trading for money or money paid items.

1 minute ago, leonseye said:

Now I'm confused.  It's a problem if they have enough worth for people to buy them, but it's also a problem if they have no worth?

Klei will no longer make profit off of anything and no longer will the people the more prices plummet. It will make something of an uproar at some point or make the entire point of the marketplace option moot. That is the point made.
The Trade Inn would have been a great idea sooner than later without the market. Much of what's happening currently is overlapping and canceling the other out.

Only time will tell.

But the marketplace add-on no longer holds any opinion to change from me. What happens on that front happens. I will still suggest my opinions and concerns as a member of the community.