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Rebalances for Willow and Wolfgang


Do these characters need reworks?  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. Wolfgang

    • He's fine as is.
      26
    • He should be changed in the way detailed in the post.
      26
    • He should be changed another way.
      12
  2. 2. Willow

    • She's fine as is.
      18
    • She should be changed in the way detailed in the post.
      27
    • She should be changed another way.
      19
  3. 3. Do these other characters need a look, too? (if so, explain why)

    • Wilson
      4
    • Wendy
      4
    • Wickerbottom
      2
    • Wes
      6
    • Maxwell
      4
    • Webber
      5
    • Wigfrid
      8
    • No, they're all fine.
      39
    • I don't know.
      6


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You have a point, but the thing to consider here is that Willow's downside affects the entire group negatively, while everyone else's is a very personal consequence.

OP laid it out earlier in the post better than I can explain:

Maybe in single player, her downside could be worked around if you just moved your base or something.

It makes it a pain in multiplayer though, because she brings not a lot to the table and destroys lots of hard work frequently.

When I'm playing with a Willow in my server I warn them to just not come back to base if she's low on sanity, which seems cruel but necessary to me the way it is now :p

Yes but in a way all the characters drawbacks have an effect on others. Wendy newbs may need a o be assisted in combat, Wickerbottom newbs will probably go insane and die without the help of the rest of the team, and also may cause nightmare creatures to be in the area, Willow's downside is just more in other peoples' faces and less cause and effect.

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Normal players start taking cold damage when their body temperature drops below zero degree. Increasing this value will increase vulnerability to coldness.

 

If artificial cooling such as endothermic fire can cool a player down to this temperature, or below this temperature, then this will also reduce one's maximum resistance to heat -- because the safe temperature range is getting smaller, it takes less time to heat up from the point of nearly frozen to the point of nearly overheated.

 

So increasing freeze temperature make you more vulnerable to temperature effect all year round. This is more fair in my opinion. Alternatively, the loss in heat resistance can be counter-balanced by increasing overheat temperature by 0.5 (?) for every 1 degree increase in freeze temperature.

 

This is very clever... But I don't think the math works out too well to do just this. For freezing to be a real risk in autumn, the freeze temp would have to be at least 25, and even then you'd only barely freeze at night, during which you normally have a heat source anyway. In winter this would be a HUGE handicap, because you can normally only warm yourself up to 40 or so, so this cuts away more than half of your time to explore.

 

But it could be used in combination with the ambient temperature drop approach to get better overall behavior, because then the ambient temperature drop can be more like 20 degrees total, and the freeze temp can be brought up by 10, to make freezing at 30 degrees possible. I think I'd cap the ambient temperature drop at a higher temperature because the higher freezing is probably enough of a handicap already in winter, so I wouldn't let it push the temperature below -10 (but ambient temperature can on its own go below that).

 

Edit: @Yoyoto I'm using the game's internal values for temperatures, which are kind of like Celsius but go way higher than is reasonable for Celsius temperatures (e.g. 45 is about as hot as you can stand in real life, but it goes higher than 100 in RoG summer).

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Yes but in a way all the characters drawbacks have an effect on others. Wendy newbs may need a o be assisted in combat, Wickerbottom newbs will probably go insane and die without the help of the rest of the team, and also may cause nightmare creatures to be in the area, Willow's downside is just more in other peoples' faces and less cause and effect.

 

There's a big difference. If those characters die, it's whatever, you revive them or they find a touchstone NBD. But with willow... If she goofs and sets your base on fire.... That can be a pretty big set back...

 

@rezecib Are you using Celsius or Fahrenheit for your temperatures because I think twice your freezing points have thrown me off.

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I seriously don't know why people think Willow is a viable character in both DS and DST, heck, some even think she's overpowered. I don't get it.

I wouldn't say she's not viable, but she is a noob trap.

New players like her because the first thing they die to is darkness, and her sanity is generally good if you're around fire all night.

Eventually though, they wreck their base during the winter because they were being chased by hounds for half a day and their sanity is low, which leads to them dying to deerclops.

Yes but in a way all the characters drawbacks have an effect on others. Wendy newbs may need a o be assisted in combat, Wickerbottom newbs will probably go insane and die without the help of the rest of the team, and also may cause nightmare creatures to be in the area, Willow's downside is just more in other peoples' faces and less cause and effect.

You didn't really think this through at all, and saying wickerbottom might go insane and negatively impact her team is an incredible stretch.

No character besides willow can accidentially harm her team. Webber could if his spiders aggro teammates, but since he's not implemented, there's no point in discussing it.

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Those perks are awesome for newer players who don't know how to manage those things yet. They're virtually useless for more experienced players.

 

Since her perks are great for newer players, Willow attracts newer players. Yet she has disproportionately much greater negative impact when she isn't played well. Dug rabbit holes suck, killed low-tier spider dens suck, but having entire sections of the base burned sucks a whole lot more.

 

Here´s the solution...Know who you are playing with. Done.

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after playing a few games of Wolfmangangster buddy over here, He is so limited in what he can do, so I agree with OP, his hunger drain is so fast like you always want to start a campfire and cook some food so foraging sucks(well its more or less less beneficial to, you really want to start a base), The only way I can survive as wolfgang is just look for a location with spiders and bees, and guess what? SURVIVE OFF OF THEM or maybe survive off off ponds as well but I prefer being close to spider dens for the silk to catch bees/butterflies + spider glands for heals, and monster meat for food. Otherwise I don't really see any other ways to survive properly. Too inflexible.

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Meh, I think the difficulties mentioned bring a desired challenge.

 

Also, the whole freezing thing for Willow, doesn´t make any sense. 

Sense in a video game? Woodie turning into a werebeaver is that sense? Its about balancing, not everything has to make sense, unless... I been living my life all wrong.

 

However I been playing Willow more often than any other character, and imo, she probably doesn't need the changes however if it makes her easier to not screw other people up, I think the change is fine.

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Sense in a video game? Woodie turning into a werebeaver is that sense? Its about balancing, not everything has to make sense, unless... I been living my life all wrong.

 

However I been playing Willow more often than any other character, and imo, she probably doesn't need the changes however if it makes her easier to not screw other people up, I think the change is fine.

 

Woody turning into a werebeaver makes sense in the world of Don´t Starve. Willow freezing because she is going insane doesn´t.

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Sense in a video game? Woodie turning into a werebeaver is that sense? Its about balancing, not everything has to make sense, unless... I been living my life all wrong.

 

However I been playing Willow more often than any other character, and imo, she probably doesn't need the changes however if it makes her easier to not screw other people up, I think the change is fine.

 

You've obviously been living your life all wrong since you've never turned into a werebeaver. You should probably see a doctor dude.

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I'm sorry if this is too old a thread to reply to, but what if Willow just had a huge sanity drain if she went on for X time without lighting fires? Just throwing it out there.

 

The Wolfgang suggestions make too much sense though! Will be using the provided mod whenever I have the chance.

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.... since we have already necro'd this post recently why don't the host have the option to evaluate a player prior to allowing them to join a game? I can balance Willow's insanity (not perfectly I have had some costly accidents) and I have never played as wolfgang.... I spend to long looking for a base location for him to make sense for me.  

 

However their draw backs aren't the issue it truly is the person playing them... I can use willow in every game and be the best team member (mostly cuz I do like to do the chores like cooking rather than fighting) but I can also see that both her and wolfgang can be drains on the team as a whole... so why not let the leader decide if the member is viable to the team dynamic... this includes whether the person behind the character can handle the person they have chosen to be... if I join your group as willow do I understand that my main role may need to be base locked to tend the fire pit and process materials that a hunter or gather brings home? if I join as wolfgang do I understand that my role needs to be the Hunter so that I can afford to feed not just myself to stay strong but also the group?

 

If as real ppl we were put in this mythical world together we would have to make these decisions... everyone who joins has to be willing to accept they are not the leader and that they have a role to fill... or if you think that you shouldnt have to follow someone else's directions you need to be a host and therefore the leader

 

or maybe I watch too many apocalypse shows/movies and believe too much in the "know your role" idea

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or maybe I watch too many apocalypse shows/movies and believe too much in the "know your role" idea

 

It's not only about knowing your role, it's also about your basic ability to manage your needs. Some people just really bad at managing sanity or hunger, some people just new. Guess how many people got DST copy never playing DS before? Possibly as many as players, that bought early access on steam. And most likely new players not gonna play offline mode or read wiki to learn the game.

 

upd

 

About pyromaniac stuff. Honestly, if normal, sane people thinks pyromaniac setting fires with no reason or spontaneously, it doesn't mean pyromaniacs doesn't have those reasons. " - Why the hell did you burned that tree??? - But it was so cold! I almost freezed to death! - Freezed to death??? It's a middle of summer!".

But I still don't like an idea of making Willow resistant to heat. It's a good idea to make some important reason for her to set a fire when she goes insane, but still, it should be something mental, that doesn't change her interaction with reality.

From my perspective, to make Willow's change doable, it should be "phantom freezing". I.e. when Willow doesn't feel heat, she starts to feel freezing that doesn't negotiate heat. Her "phantom freezing" meter increases over time when she is insane, and can be fulfilled ONLY when she gain sanity from burning stuff (warm clothes doesn't work), with biggest impact on actual setting fire, not sitting near it. When she feels phantom cold, setting fire bumps up her sanity a bit (like random fires), and heat from fire warms her very little, so she can't warm up with very low sanity (lower sanity - faster cold up).

It can simulate insane dissonance "why I feel so cold when there is so hot?" and all that spontaneous behavior "I need to burn something RIGHT NOW or I gonna die!" with more insane reasoning behind it. It doesn't break her obsession with fire, and doesn't affect her physical interaction with a world. Of course, phantom freezing should do damage if not treated, like insanity monsters.

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Any inexperienced player on your server can be a problem! When I first got the game, you know the amount of accidental forest fires I started? The amount of rabbit holes I dug up? The amount of spider den I just destroyed? Any noob on your server will cause massive damage to your world, no matter what character they play as. You just need to know who you are playing with.

 

No. Not all newbies play like you. Just several guys without the concepts of 'reproducibility'.

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I never play as wolfgang because i became frustrated with his talk animation canceling whatever action i had been doing at 25% 50% 75% hunger thresholds. IMO removing this feature would be all the buff he needs.

 

I think willow's impulsive pyromania is forgivable and manageable... just pretend its summer all the time! The first two suggestions that come to mind when grouped with a competent willow would be to first get that ice flingomatic with the quickness and charge willow with keeping it fueled to keep her on her toes. second i would make a fire proof section of the base with a small and accessible ration of essential supplies (fire pit, endothermic fire pit, fridge, grass, twigs etc.). Keep the main supply of combustable resources in a no willow zone of your base.

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I support everything rezecib says. In the interests of accumulating more accurate votes, do you think you could add an Abstain option to "Do these other characters need a look too"? I was going to vote on Wolfgang and Willow as you've described, but I don't have enough playtime with the other characters to say they need work or they're fine- I'd like to say I don't know right now for those :)

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