Rebalances for Willow and Wolfgang

[TheKingofSquirrels]

I also don´t really get your complaint about Wolfgang, are you saying he´s too hard?

[The Letter W]

I will say, having ran a server a short time last night before my internet decided the best idea was to give everyone 1000+ latency, Willow and Wolfgang really could use some tweaks.

People are saying the resistance to the heat for Willow is OP, but think about it. It's really just the opposite of Wilson's beard. It's not immunity, it's just extra. The only issue with Willow is that it comes with low sanity, and I think that's an okay balance. If the lighting fires at feet thing must be kept, perhaps they should burn shorter so that they won't have enough time to catch an entire base. As of now, we really don't have any methods of putting them out. If we could put them out, that would be fine because at least it could be managed without depending on the one player. (Would it be too much to ask for the Glaciers and Ice?)

As for Wolfgang, I only know based on observation as he's not a character I play. But when I had one in my server, every day was hunting day. All day every day. Sure if he was Mighty the beasts went down easier, but I'm not sure if it really evens out. 8 meats go by pretty quickly, especially if one player is using half of them for a Meaty Stew. (Though IIRC you can use 3 and a Monster Meat or Morsel...? I don't usually make them.)

[acemurdock]

Sure if he was Mighty the beasts went down easier, but I'm not sure if it really evens out. 

 

 That's the key. It should more than even out, and be a boon for the rest of the team, at least a little. It's his perk, after all. It shouldn't be just about keeping it even. 

[rezecib]

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

It's true. As Toros said, experienced players have no use for her perks, and can effectively navigate her downsides, but an inexperienced Willow on your server is all it takes to set a good server back entire seasons. Willow as it stands is worse than worthless. Her contributions are actually negative.

 

I also don´t really get your complaint about Wolfgang, are you saying he´s too hard?

 

No, he's not hard. No characters are hard. At this point, the game is easy for me. It's that he's awkward to play, the optimal strategy for him is unpleasant. You'd think a strongman would want to be strong all the time, but instead you're encouraged to stay Wimpy unless you want to fight, and then as soon as you become Mighty the actual benefits of being Mighty rapidly drain away. It would just be a better experience to play him if his hunger drain didn't change, because the only reason to be Wimpy would be to heal efficiently. Otherwise you'd be fine with staying Mighty and being the strongman.

 

As for removing scaling in Mighty/Wimpy forms, I think it doesn't really change his difficult (it makes predicting his behavior a little easier, I guess?), but mostly it's about the feel of it. When you power up into Mighty form, you want to feel MIGHTY until it wears off. Currently you just gradually drain back into mediocrity. It just feels bad. I played a few 200+ day worlds with Wolfgang and went back to Wigfrid as my main fighting-oriented character because she feels a lot better to play. From talking to other Wolfgang players, I'm not alone in this. I'd like Wolfgang to be a valid choice over Wigfrid, rather than a "well I could play him because I like his idea, or I could play the unilaterally better character that I don't like as much...".

 

Edit: Personally I love Wigfrid too. She's pretty overpowered, though. But even if she gets bumped down, she'd still feel better to play than Wolfgang.

[MoistTarp]

How about we just tone down Wigfrid instead of make all characters OP.

 

In this thread one person trys to make their favorite characters overpowered and make the game to easy for

everyone else because they have unfounded assumptions.

 

 

I am sorry you are having a hard time with them but really leave the game alone, it is fine so far.

[rezecib]

How about we just tone down Wigfrid instead of make all characters OP.

 

In this thread one person trys to make their favorite characters overpowered and make the game to easy for

everyone else because they have unfounded assumptions.

 

 

I am sorry you are having a hard time with them but really leave the game alone, it is fine so far.

Lolwut? No, I don't play Willow or Wolfgang. I tried Wolfgang, but Willow I could tell was pointless just from listing her perks/downsides. I think you're projecting.

 

In DST I mostly play Wes, as I said, I find the game pretty easy already. These changes are to make these characters more fun and less annoying for other players. You are repeatedly using straw man arguments, and it isn't working.

 

[TheKingofSquirrels]

It's true. As Toros said, experienced players have no use for her perks, and can effectively navigate her downsides, but an inexperienced Willow on your server is all it takes to set a good server back entire seasons. Willow as it stands is worse than worthless. Her contributions are actually negative.

 

 

No, he's not hard. No characters are hard. At this point, the game is easy for me. It's that he's awkward to play, the optimal strategy for him is unpleasant. You'd think a strongman would want to be strong all the time, but instead you're encouraged to stay Wimpy unless you want to fight, and then as soon as you become Mighty the actual benefits of being Mighty rapidly drain away. It would just be a better experience to play him if his hunger drain didn't change, because the only reason to be Wimpy would be to heal efficiently. Otherwise you'd be fine with staying Mighty and being the strongman.

 

As for removing scaling in Mighty/Wimpy forms, I think it doesn't really change his difficult (it makes predicting his behavior a little easier, I guess?), but mostly it's about the feel of it. When you power up into Mighty form, you want to feel MIGHTY until it wears off. Currently you just gradually drain back into mediocrity. It just feels bad. I played a few 200+ day worlds with Wolfgang and went back to Wigfrid as my main fighting-oriented character because she feels a lot better to play. From talking to other Wolfgang players, I'm not alone in this. I'd like Wolfgang to be a valid choice over Wigfrid, rather than a "well I could play him because I like his idea, or I could play the unilaterally better character that I don't like as much...".

 

Edit: Personally I love Wigfrid too. She's pretty overpowered, though. But even if she gets bumped down, she'd still feel better to play than Wolfgang.

 

Any inexperienced player on your server can be a problem! When I first got the game, you know the amount of accidental forest fires I started? The amount of rabbit holes I dug up? The amount of spider den I just destroyed? Any noob on your server will cause massive damage to your world, no matter what character they play as. You just need to know who you are playing with.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

It's true. As Toros said, experienced players have no use for her perks, and can effectively navigate her downsides, but an inexperienced Willow on your server is all it takes to set a good server back entire seasons. Willow as it stands is worse than worthless. Her contributions are actually negative.

 

 

No, he's not hard. No characters are hard. At this point, the game is easy for me. It's that he's awkward to play, the optimal strategy for him is unpleasant. You'd think a strongman would want to be strong all the time, but instead you're encouraged to stay Wimpy unless you want to fight, and then as soon as you become Mighty the actual benefits of being Mighty rapidly drain away. It would just be a better experience to play him if his hunger drain didn't change, because the only reason to be Wimpy would be to heal efficiently. Otherwise you'd be fine with staying Mighty and being the strongman.

 

As for removing scaling in Mighty/Wimpy forms, I think it doesn't really change his difficult (it makes predicting his behavior a little easier, I guess?), but mostly it's about the feel of it. When you power up into Mighty form, you want to feel MIGHTY until it wears off. Currently you just gradually drain back into mediocrity. It just feels bad. I played a few 200+ day worlds with Wolfgang and went back to Wigfrid as my main fighting-oriented character because she feels a lot better to play. From talking to other Wolfgang players, I'm not alone in this. I'd like Wolfgang to be a valid choice over Wigfrid, rather than a "well I could play him because I like his idea, or I could play the unilaterally better character that I don't like as much...".

 

Edit: Personally I love Wigfrid too. She's pretty overpowered, though. But even if she gets bumped down, she'd still feel better to play than Wolfgang.

The fact that she can survive fire, burn stuff to gain sanity and have a lighter that provides sanity boost and infinite light source are awesome perks. 

[MoistTarp]

 

Lolwut? No, I don't play Willow or Wolfgang. I tried Wolfgang, but Willow I could tell was pointless just from listing her perks/downsides. I think you're projecting.

 

In DST I mostly play Wes, as I said, I find the game pretty easy already. These changes are to make these characters more fun and less annoying for other players. You are repeatedly using straw man arguments, and it isn't working.

 

 

I like how you ignored most of my points in all of my posts.

[rezecib]

The fact that she can survive fire, burn stuff to gain sanity and have a lighter that provides sanity boost and infinite light source are awesome perks.

Those perks are awesome for newer players who don't know how to manage those things yet. They're virtually useless for more experienced players.

 

Any inexperienced player on your server can be a problem! When I first got the game, you know the amount of accidental forest fires I started? The amount of rabbit holes I dug up? The amount of spider den I just destroyed? Any noob on your server will cause massive damage to your world, no matter what character they play as. You just need to know who you are playing with.

Since her perks are great for newer players, Willow attracts newer players. Yet she has disproportionately much greater negative impact when she isn't played well. Dug rabbit holes suck, killed low-tier spider dens suck, but having entire sections of the base burned sucks a whole lot more.

[MoistTarp]

Those perks are awesome for newer players who don't know how to manage those things yet. They're virtually useless for more experienced players.

 

Since her perks are great for newer players, Willow attracts newer players. Yet she has disproportionately much greater negative impact when she isn't played well. Dug rabbit holes suck, killed low-tier spider dens suck, but having entire sections of the base burned sucks a whole lot more.

 

I said this already but as you have a tendancy to go in circles and ignore what people say I will do the same.

 

On Willow - you mean to tell me that the entire group cant keep her sane? She only lights fires when her sanity drops too low. Maybe you should help your team mates more. It is a good indicator of team cohesion when willow is able to operate at optimum. Also its not hard to keep her sane. Have her tend the fires for a while, preparing thermal stones and food for people and her sanity issue is gone. What is your problem with that?

 

[rezecib]

I like how you ignored most of my points in all of my posts.

 

I wish I had ignored all of them, as it would have avoided pages of useless discussion. Your objective here is obviously obfuscation, as you are also avoiding my points. This is the last time I will respond to you.

[The Letter W]

I said this already but as you have a tendancy to go in circles and ignore what people say I will do the same.

 

On Willow - you mean to tell me that the entire group cant keep her sane? She only lights fires when her sanity drops too low. Maybe you should help your team mates more. It is a good indicator of team cohesion when willow is able to operate at optimum. Also its not hard to keep her sane. Have her tend the fires for a while, preparing thermal stones and food for people and her sanity issue is gone. What is your problem with that?

 

 

From what I've seen, it doesn't take her long to get to that point. It's more of a hassle right now because there is literally no way to extinguish fires

[MoistTarp]

I wish I had ignored all of them, as it would have avoided pages of useless discussion. Your objective here is obviously obfuscation, as you are also avoiding my points. This is the last time I will respond to you.

 

No its is your inability to appreciate that not everyone shares your views. I can count at least 5 people from memory at least who have posted on here who disagree with your changes. You write people off as if they don't deserve to have an opinion on what you want to try to force down Klei. Then after someone makes a very good point you just repeat the same thing over and over to the next person as if the last person did not make a point.

I made very good points. My goal here is not obfuscation, its to make it obvious that your desired  changes are not entirely practical or worthwhile, and you quite rudely have acted as if no one has any solvent points. Many people like Wolfgang and Willow the way they are. The problem here is you, and your lack of accepting that other people have viable opinions that run counter to yours.

 

[MoistTarp]

From what I've seen, it doesn't take her long to get to that point. It's more of a hassle right now because there is literally no way to extinguish fires

 

She is designed that way because you are then forced to make a fire more often, because making  fire increases her sanity.

I would offer as an alternative to messing with her abilities is to give her another item she can craft. She can make a teddy bear (like the one she is holding) out of beefalo fur twigs and bushes along with some kind of rare item. She can equip it in her hands and it will also slowly build up her sanity but it wares out quickly. That would be an acceptable addition to her.

 

[Isosurface]

People are saying the resistance to the heat for Willow is OP, but think about it. It's really just the opposite of Wilson's beard. It's not immunity, it's just extra.

Not true. 

 

"If her sanity is 60 or above, it treats temperature normally. As her sanity gets lower, the ambient temperature gets a scaling amount subtracted from it"

 

What is proposed here does not affect rate of change like insulation does. The temperature change occurs instantaneously, so eat a greed cap and the perceived ambient temperature instantly drops by a huge amount, the change is independent of time. Putting a night armour on and off will practically grant you the immunity to summer heat.

 

Also, it doesn't make sense to me why Willow should be more resistant to summer heat. Unlike burn damage and frostbite, summer heat wave is deadly not because it inflicts physical damage, but because high temperature affects metabolism. Wearing TF2 pyro gears or bunker gears shield the user from fire, but imagine wearing those 24/7 in a very hot summer. Fire immunity, yes. Heat immunity, no.

 

I hate random fire, but replacing it with a conditional perk like this is OP.

[The Letter W]

She is designed that way because you are then forced to make a fire more often, because making  fire increases her sanity.

I would offer as an alternative to messing with her abilities is to give her another item she can craft. She can make a teddy bear (like the one she is holding) out of beefalo fur twigs and bushes along with some kind of rare item. She can equip it in her hands and it will also slowly build up her sanity but it wares out quickly. That would be an acceptable addition to her.

 

 

So does eating cooked Green Caps or wearing certain hats. If you're depending on her fires and creating fires for sanity management, I think you might want to reconsider. The issue here isn't so much the mechanic itself, but how much it affects other players who really can't do much about managing Willow's sanity. (Read: burning down the entire base.)

[secret333]

I like Willow the way she currently is and I am not new to this game. I like her perks because I don't need to craft torches to get charcoal and the passive sanity gain from fire is nice to have.  @rezecib  you can not speak for all Willow players just because you think she is useless. IT IS upsetting if someone accidentally burns down your whole base but it is part of the game and part of the learning experience for the less experienced player, just like how we all learned to play the game from the punishments Klei has in place. While your supposed change to her does make sense for some people it would not be something I would want when playing Willow as I don't see it as a problem and especially do not want the multiplayer to become too inconsistent with the single player, nor do I want the singleplayer to receive any of the changes listed in this topic.

[rezecib]

Not true. 

 

"If her sanity is 60 or above, it treats temperature normally. As her sanity gets lower, the ambient temperature gets a scaling amount subtracted from it"

 

What is proposed here does not affect rate of change like insulation does. The temperature change occurs instantaneously, so eat a greed cap and the perceived ambient temperature instantly drops by a huge amount, the change is independent of time. Putting a night armour on and off will practically grant you the immunity to summer heat.

 

Also, it doesn't make sense to me why Willow should be more resistant to summer heat. Unlike burn damage and frostbite, summer heat wave is deadly not because it inflicts physical damage, but because high temperature affects metabolism. Wearing TF2 pyro gears or bunker gears shield the user from fire, but imagine wearing those 24/7 in a very hot summer. Fire immunity, yes. Heat immunity, no.

 

I hate random fire, but replacing it with a conditional perk like this is OP.

 

In most scenarios, it is just affecting rate of change. Summer typically gets above 90 in RoG, so once it goes there it would not be possible for her to completely nullify it with these changes.

 

As for the real-world interpretation, heat does chemical damage, the same way fire does. Proteins denature (lose their shape and stop performing). The difference is not in mechanism, but circumstance -- summer heat is constant and ambient, while fire is transient and local-- that's why fire protective gear helps, it slows down the rate at which you absorb the heat, allowing you to spend more time there, followed by moving away to let it transfer off.

 

But I see your point. She would get better heat resistance than Wilson gets from cold with his beard, which is really the only fair comparison to make, here. Although you could argue that's not necessarily bad, as Wilson's beard has other very useful applications.

 

My goal here was to make freezing a real threat during autumn/spring, while still providing the ability to mitigate some of Summer's heat, without completely destroying you in the winter.

 

You've made it clear that simply subtracting an amount from the ambient temperature won't work, because autumn has temperatures around 30, so it would have to subtract at least 30 for freezing to be a risk, but that would also enable almost full immunity to heat in summer (99 -> 69; I think it does occasionally get higher, though). Similarly, doing a weighted average of a particular temperature and the ambient temperature wouldn't work either, because that would affect summer heat even more than it would affect lower temperatures.

 

Of course, in RoG there are two types of insulation: ones that prevent freezing, and ones that prevent warming. I don't think giving her summer insulation works, though, because this is supposed to be a downside with a bit of a perk mixed in, at a cost (being dangerously close to insanity), not just a straight upgrade.

 

I initially tested a flat temperature drain over time, but I think that suffers from being far too punishing in winter, while being mostly overwhelmed by ambient heat transfer at other times.

 

In the past you've made good suggestions for simple mathematical models that could be used to get better behavior out of the system. Perhaps you can think of one here?

 

If we take this independent of a model, though, perhaps we could discuss intended behavior, instead. What do you think of a mechanic that poses a real threat of freezing at low sanity during autumn/spring, without completely destroying you in winter or giving you complete immunity to heat in summer?

 

@secret333 Your points are well-taken. I'll keep banning Willow from my servers while she's in this state, though.

[secret333]

 

 

@secret333 Your points are well-taken. I'll keep banning Willow from my servers while she's in this state, though.

Works for me. You are correct with the denaturation of enzymes though. Perhaps for your suggestion you could give her a lower isolation to cold and a higher isolation to heat that can scale based on the season.

[rezecib]

Works for me. You are correct with the denaturation of enzymes though. Perhaps for your suggestion you could give her a lower isolation to cold and a higher isolation to heat that can scale based on the season.

That would make her more vulnerable in winter and less in summer, but it wouldn't make freezing a threat in autumn/spring, as the temperatures there are around 30 (0 is needed for damage from freezing).

 

(I studied biological engineering)

[Toros]

First – one poll is not indicative to all the players of dont starve. It is not a representative sample, and in addition it has selection bias for people on this forum who like to do polls. Go to the dont starve wiki and you will see that many people like Wolfgang quite a bit. Don't toss that poll around like it is the end all be all, because it is not.

Second - You need to keep a certain level or realism for most games to be fun. Further the best place to see drawbacks for particular attributes is reality. His drawback is needing food more than most, but this is quite an easy thing to keep up with in single player. With the addition of more players they can easily make more food and give it to him. The fact is that Wolfgang requires group support to maintain. Whats the problem with that? If you want a tank you have to pay for it. Tough bounce.

On Willow - you mean to tell me that the entire group cant keep her sane? She only lights fires when her sanity drops too low. Maybe you should help your team mates more. It is a good indicator of team cohesion when willow is able to operate at optimum. Also its not hard to keep her sane. Have her tend the fires for a while, preparing thermal stones and food for people and her sanity issue is gone. What is your problem with that?

I've read a number of post you've made, and I've come to the conclusion you don't play willow or wolfgang, and importantly you have not actually tested the changes.

Arguing realism is pretty nonsensical, by the way. Willow is immune to fire, wolfgang can lose 50 lbs of muscle in 2 days and put it back by eating a few thousand calories.

What's important is fun. Fun for the person playing the character, and fun for their team.

Vanilla wolfgang is useful to his team when they need a fighter, but wimpy wolfgang sucks at everything, and isn't fun to play.

Willow is fun to play... Until she burns down your berry farm.

She's also awful to have on the team because her advantages are made obselete by a sleeping roll, food, and torches (the cheapest recipe in the game), and her downside can wreck a base.

Like I said, it's obvious you don't play wolfgang, because his team never has to "pay for a tank." He hordes food while wimpy so it's available when he needs to go mighty. Wimpy has a 1x hunger multiplier, so he's just a nerfed version of wilson at that point.

Having willow on your team sucks because any noob can accidentially cause fires and ruin things. With the rework, damage is caused only by deliberate griefing, which any character can do.

@rezecib would it be possible to have different parameters based on the season?

That would allow you to fine-tune desired behavior by season instead.

[rezecib]

@Toros It would. I wasn't seriously considering that because temperature varies gradually over the course of a season (the game has a set Winter, Autum, Spring, and Summer temperature, then does an easing between them, hitting that target at the center of the season). It occurs to me now that it would probably still behave pretty well if I had a temperature delta targets for each season, and used easing between them. But when you get to something so dynamic like that, it's really hard to get information on balance without having a bunch of people testing. Maybe something like...

 

Summer/Winter: Max of -15 temperature

Autum/Spring: Max of -40 temperature

 

But I think it would still behave a bit oddly in early/late summer and winter, though. You'd end up with periods at the beginning and end of summer where you could totally negate the temperature difference, then a period in the center where you can't even negate the same temperature difference. Similarly winter would be really hard at the start and the end.

 

So... I think we'd really need a different model, here. One is not appearing to me, yet.

[Isosurface]

Normal players start taking cold damage when their body temperature drops below zero degree. Increasing this value will increase vulnerability to coldness.

 

If artificial cooling such as endothermic fire can cool a player down to this temperature, or below this temperature, then this will also reduce one's maximum resistance to heat -- because the safe temperature range is getting smaller, it takes less time to heat up from the point of nearly frozen to the point of nearly overheated.

 

So increasing freeze temperature make you more vulnerable to temperature effect all year round. This is more fair in my opinion. Alternatively, the loss in heat resistance can be counter-balanced by increasing overheat temperature by 0.5 (?) for every 1 degree increase in freeze temperature.

[acemurdock]

IT IS upsetting if someone accidentally burns down your whole base but it is part of the game and part of the learning experience for the less experienced player, just like how we all learned to play the game from the punishments Klei has in place.

 

 You have a point, but the thing to consider here is that Willow's downside affects the entire group negatively, while everyone else's is a very personal consequence. 

 

OP laid it out earlier in the post better than I can explain:

 

Drawbacks:

• Wilson doesn't have one, because he's simple. I guess you could say he loses his beard on death (strictly personal), but others don't have one to begin with, so whatever.
• Willow burns things down when she's low on sanity. This impacts everyone hugely, and disproportionately more with larger shared bases.
• Wolfgang has to eat more food to survive. This is strictly personal, because if it fails, it kills him and nobody else.
• Wendy does less damage. This is strictly personal.
• WX-78 takes damage in rain. This is strictly personal.
• Wickerbottom can't sleep, and hates spoiled food. These are strictly personal.
• Woodie turns into a werebeaver when chopping too much, leaving him weak afterwards. This is strictly personal.
• Wes is just all-around weaker. This is strictly personal.
• Maxwell has less health. This is strictly personal.
• Wigfrid can only eat meat. This is strictly personal.
• Webber gets attacked by pigs. This is strictly personal.

Maybe in single player, her downside could be worked around if you just moved your base or something.

It makes it a pain in multiplayer though, because she brings not a lot to the table and destroys lots of hard work frequently. 

 When I'm playing with a Willow in my server I warn them to just not come back to base if she's low on sanity, which seems cruel but necessary to me the way it is now