Klei is not above criticism

[oCrapaCreeper]

I am of the firm belief that the original creator of a project's vision should be respected, and if Kevin changed his mind, then fine, but if it's the same, and he's been overruled, it would make me sad.

The problem I have with this is the fact that Kevin's main statement on multiplayer is almost identical to the one on Klei's support page, but in more detail. 

 

There has been a lot of talk about adding a multiplayer or co-op mode. I’d like to give our official response to this suggestion, and clear up any confusion that people might have.

 

As you can see from the game’s roadmap, our vision for the game does not include network play. We have promised our players an awesome single player experience, and we are devoting all of our time and resources towards fulfilling this promise. We are even committing to six months of continued support after launch, so that we can make the game even better.

 

Don’t Starve was designed and implemented as a single-player game. At the code level, you have to do things a lot differently if you want to play over a network. If we were to implement multiplayer now, we would have to re-architect all of this code, which would have unavoidable spill-over effects for the single player experience. This would make it harder for us to fulfil the promises that we’ve made, and compromise the overall quality of the game. 

 

This is an amazing community, and we really value your feedback, as you can see from our constant updates and hotfixes. We have discussed and debated multiplayer A LOT within the studio. In the end, we have concluded that we can make a better game, and better support the community, if it remains single player. This is why we are not planning on adding multiplayer or co-op to Don’t Starve.

 

Now let’s get on with making the best single player game we can make!

 

 

That's pretty much what everyone in this thread has been trying to say. Again, all of that is a product of its time.

[DeadpanQuinkan]

Maybe the worst thing they did was introduce it through a puzzle.  It just created so much confusion and denial to the point of leaving bad tastes in some peoples mouths.  They are not above criticism, but they implemented what they said they would in the past and now they have the resources to add the big thing they didn't plan for in the past, but now for the future.  Time will always tell if it will be good or not.

[Silentdarkness1]

Maybe the worst thing they did was introduce it through a puzzle.  It just created so much confusion and denial to the point of leaving bad tastes in some peoples mouths.  

I don't like not being able to like this multiple times.

 

That is my major gripe. They revealed it through a puzzle, when a trailer would've fixed it up just as well.

 

So many hours spent wondering and brainwracking and speculating, just for MULTIPLAYER?!

[XirmiX]

You know what would be real good? If we had to go from single player into multiplayer world or something. That way it would follow the story a bit!

[Silentdarkness1]

You know what would be real good? If we had to go from single player into multiplayer world or something. That way it would follow the story a bit!

I hate the crud out of this idea and the portal door idea. I've already explained why, so i'll keep it out of here.

[Maximum124]

@DeadpanQuinkan and @Silentdarkness1

 

You know when multiplayer does officially come out we'll probably have another trailer

 

which means perhaps another puzzle

 

I am a bit saddened too that we didn't get more story, but the puzzle itself was fun and challenging and I'm glad we at least got one instead of nothing at all.

[J20hawkz]

One question. To everyone upset that Don't Starve is getting Multiplayer. I know the reason and it's got nothing to do with disliking or liking multiplayer.

When Don't Starve Together officially comes out in summer, will you play it with friends and/or family?

If your answer is yes then you can't be "that" upset about it.

[Silentdarkness1]

@DeadpanQuinkan and @Silentdarkness1

 

You know when multiplayer does officially come out we'll probably have another trailer

 

which means perhaps another puzzle

 

I am a bit saddened too that we didn't get more story, but the puzzle itself was fun and challenging and I'm glad we at least got one instead of nothing at all.

Yeah, but the thing is, now, when there's a new puzzle, my determination to do all I can to help solve it will be stymied by a question:

 

IS IT WORTH THE PAIN?

[ArcticFox789]

Okay, I'm anti-multiplayer, but let's not get into that, if you want to dicuss that, find a thread that is discussing that, like Xjurwi's one, but this was (and thanks to my OP being very anti-MP), is no longer a thread about what it was supposed to be.

 

Anyway, point is, can we get this back on-topic, or it'll just get locked. Everyone's just regurgitating the same old, same old, and it's helping no-one.

 

(TL;DR OP) This topic was set up to discuss these things:

 

- "Klei is awesome, so MP will be good." - Is this a valid argument?

- The tongue-in-cheek sentence that's really getting to me (See OP), is this just me?

[Silentdarkness1]

Fine, fine.

[Scrimbles]

An optional mode that will be fun for alot of people, and will make Don't Starve a more popular game, and give Klei more money to develop new things.

 

Optional

Non forced

 

Klei said they wouldn't just update multi-player and forget about single player, so I have no clue why anyone could complain about its addition

[ArcticFox789]

One question. To everyone upset that Don't Starve is getting Multiplayer. I know the reason and it's got nothing to do with disliking or liking multiplayer.

When Don't Starve Together officially comes out in summer, will you play it with friends and/or family?

If your answer is yes then you can't be "that" upset about it.

 

This has nothing to do with anything, it's just dragging this thread further off-topic. No offence J20Hawkz, this may actually be an interesting thread to start, I'd definitely like to see a poll. (No, I won't, by the way, I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. DST will not be played by me).

 

Can we please try and save this?

[Zalyn]

One criticism I have for Klei is the pricing scheme and integration with vanilla.

 

I would prefer for multiplayer functionality to be released as a DLC (with price) for several reasons:

 

1) It puts the burden of funding on the people who actually want it (and allows Klei to better track demand/interest).

 

2) It gives people who are concerned about changes leaking over from MP into their SP games some reassurance of preservation of the game.  For example, someone suggested scaling up the giants and bosses to make them more of a challenge in MP.  This is not okay for SP players, and as was also mentioned, is something that is unappealing about MMOs for people who don't like to do endgame in groups.

 

3) It keeps the price of the vanilla game lower to make it more accessible for new players.  I don't care for the across-the-board increase in price of the vanilla game for players who may just want to play single-player.

 

Reasons for the reasons:

 

A) The sentiment expressed by many is that MP will be popular, attractive, and will enhance the fun of playing DS longer.  Well, let the market demonstrate that; I'm certain that it will (I'm dead serious here - many people like MP and will pay to be able to do it.  I just don't want to have to subsidize that).

 

B) Keeping the price of vanilla low as an entry point / gateway drug will make it more likely that new players will join DS and will subsequently pay for the MP upgrade DLC to play with their friends (see: A)

 

C) Right now, I like being able to switch back to vanilla DS if I get tired of Wigfrid or summer or moleworms.  I do not feel comfortable with the MP and accessories being added to the vanilla game without any way to keep them pre-MP release. 

 

There will be changes to the game to accommodate MP, and unless Klei can guarantee some way to 1) prevent the updates from happening or 2) allow a reversion to pre-MP, I'm going to be upset. 

 

Making it a DLC or similar modular content will make it easier to take out the changes for single player and will likely help some feel more comfortable that our game will not be changed under our feet.

[The Letter W]

The way I see it, they figured they would need the game to stand alone as a single player game first. It gets people into it because you're not required to have other people around to play. As the game gets stronger, people start to go, hey, this would be fun with multiplayer!

Klei's the same, I think. They got the game stabilized so that it could be enjoyed single player. To me, that seems like a good time to introduce multiplayer because it's confident without it. 

I hope that made sense. Let me know if I need to clarify a bit more. 

[Will]

It's strange because I've literally seen no one who used the "KLEI IS AMAZING" argument to justify multiplayer, or to remove criticism. I may just have missed some stuff, but still. I haven't seen anyone say they were above criticism.

[J20hawkz]

This has nothing to do with anything, it's just dragging this thread further off-topic. No offence J20Hawkz, this may actually be an interesting thread to start, I'd definitely like to see a poll. (No, I won't, by the way, I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. DST will not be played by me).

 

Can we please try and save this?

How do you intend on saving this thread? By avoiding questions and opinions different to yours? Surely you made this thread to hear what we all think. Or do you expect everyone to agree with what you are saying?

[Rasukki]

You are completely right, they are not above criticism. And unfortunately to say it that's where I stop agreeing to you as you are not above it either.

 

 

And as for it not fitting in with the DS feel, I honestly don't see why, whenever I think of DS I think of almost a rebellion game. A big scary puppetmaster who turns out to be a puppet himself captures people to toy with. And they, ticked off that he did this, go to defeat him and knock him off his throne, only to become him.

 

If you think about it its a very accurate representation about how actual rebellions work. But anyways back on topic.

 

 

But of course in an actual rebellion it is not wise to challenge a tyrant by yourself directly and so they retrieve help. Wilson was really trying to amass an army by building his door, inviting as much back up as he could to take on Maxwell, and if he became corrupt they would get to dethrone him. 

 

And I respect if you don't feel this is  true, I completely understand, but that illustrates another point. Don't Starve is a magnificent work of art (hell, the graphics are literal art, even the character voices are art, AKA music.) and when you try to interpret a piece of art, whatever your opinion is is probably unique, sure maybe you can convince other people to see it but not all. And unfortunately video game designers know this, they know that they can not make the game perfect for everyone. And so they try to appease as many as possible. 

 

And they have done this! The only people they will disappoint is people who don't like don't starve or any of the stuff added from (insert update here) to all's well that's Maxwell (Greybeard I'm looking at you...) they've not even put it in a official vanilla update, they made it an optional (free I may add) DLC to try to appease the non multis. They've tried to appease everyone they can! And in my opinion they have!

 

 

Anyways, All best wishes.

 

~Rasukki

 

 

The only thing I don't like about this thread is that my post got no love or hate `^`

 

EDIT: Except for that like letter W, thanks for that.

 

EDIT2PREVIOUSEDIT: And J20Hawkz, thanks for that 2 ;D

[ArcticFox789]

How do you intend on saving this thread? By avoiding questions and opinions different to yours? Surely you made this thread to hear what we all think. Or do you expect everyone to agree with what you are saying?

 

No, I want people to discuss the points I (admittedly badly) raised in the OP, that just saying Klei is good isn't a justifiable argument, and did that sentence from JoeW bother anyone else. I communicated this badly, and I understand that now since release, more and more people are pro-MP, so I know I'm gonna have disagreements, but this thread was not set up to talk about those, there are other threads for that, and preferably, I'd like this kept on topic. I want to hear  people's opinions, but I already know these from other threads. I want their opinions on what I've raised, not what they've already talked about.

[Maximum124]

Alright, criticism isn't criticism if it has no basis, saying Klei aren't staying true to their original vision can't be used as an argument because they did in-fact stay true and finished what they set out to do.

 

Criticism also means that even though you disagree, you present an alternative or a way to meet both parties in the middle, and give them a reason  to listen to what you're saying. Right now the only one I see from you is "forget about multiplayer and work more on what's already done (singleplayer)" which 1. brings us back to the first sentence and 2. means that they have to then actually u-turn and disappoint all these people who are looking forward to multiplayer which would just be bad business, so they have no reason to listen.

 

So yes, no one, including Klei is above criticism but you need to provide adequate criticism first.

 

Just saying "I feel like they're pulling a bad move" without actually providing facts or alternatives is just stating an opinion and not criticism.

[Zalyn]

In all fairness, it's hard for me to pick out what exactly you want to discuss from the original post.  Based on this recent comment, it seems that you want to discuss the lack of validity of the "Klei is godly and infallible" retort to people who think MP is a bad idea.  I get what you're interested in, but I think it's not going to register with people right now because emotions are running really high.  Heck, I'm about ready to retire from the forums until actual changes happen so I can hack the updates to stop my game from updating before MP and just check out forever after that.

 

So I went with a general criticism of Klei's method as a way to try to respect the spirit of your thread.

[ArcticFox789]

In all fairness, it's hard for me to pick out what exactly you want to discuss from the original post.  Based on this recent comment, it seems that you want to discuss the lack of validity of the "Klei is godly and infallible" retort to people who think MP is a bad idea.  I get what you're interested in, but I think it's not going to register with people right now because emotions are running really high.  Heck, I'm about ready to retire from the forums until actual changes happen so I can hack the updates to stop my game from updating before MP and just check out forever after that.

 

So I went with a general criticism of Klei's method as a way to try to respect the spirit of your thread.

 

I know I put it across badly, and there's no saving it now really.

[Zalyn]

I know I put it across badly, and there's no saving it now really.

Hey, on the bright side, I haven't seen anyone called a "toddler" yet.  So we're getting better. 

[The Letter W]

I suppose what I should say it's not that I think Klei is godlike heil Klei  it's just I trust that they won't lead us down the wrong path. And if they do and MP is a flop, well, learning experience! I'll probably still like them though. waves Canada flag fweee

[ARamblingSpider]

I agree with Arctic here.

 

My biggest problem isn't really the multiplayer itself but how it has been presented and klei's sudden decision on the matter. Arctic made a point how most of us anti-multiplayer forumers joined a while ago when Klei was WAY more active with the community and any thread about multiplayer was shutdown. Now I know the other devs are working on Incognito but as far as we know Kevin could be in south america battling giant anaconda's with a shotgun, my point is lately the devs aren't really communicating with the community anymore. It would've been a smart idea to slowly creep on us and ask what out opinions were about DS having multiplayer, but no instead they keep it a complete secret and stick it in our hardest puzzle to date, we expected more lore or even poor Wilson going home, but all we got was a advertisement for the biggest controversial topic.I'm not going to believe Klei thought that was a good idea, what even worse they knew it would go this direction, even in the OP thread I felt like it wasn't enough info and it felt more pandering to people who wanted multiplayer. The whole thread left me fell slimy, not because I felt klei had "betrayed" or I felt DS would be "ruined into the 12 level of hell" but it just didn't feel like klei thought the decision that much out. it's also been shocking how many people wanted multiplayer but before we're just as anti-multiplayer as me and a few others. Heck just recently I learned I'm one of the few people who actually believed DS shouldn't have multiplayer. I've already stated my point already, but I'm explaining in more depth about.

[ArcticFox789]

Alright, criticism isn't criticism if it has no basis, saying Klei aren't staying true to their original vision can't be used as an argument because they did in-fact stay true and finished what they set out to do.

 

Criticism also means that even though you disagree, you present an alternative or a way to meet both parties in the middle, and give them a reason  to listen to what you're saying. Right now the only one I see from you is "forget about multiplayer and work more on what's already done (singleplayer)" which 1. brings us back to the first sentence and 2. means that they have to then actually u-turn and disappoint all these people who are looking forward to multiplayer which would just be bad business, so they have no reason to listen.

 

So yes, no one, including Klei is above criticism but you need to provide adequate criticism first.

 

Just saying "I feel like they're pulling a bad move" without actually providing facts or alternatives is just stating an opinion and not criticism.

 

We were promised the best 'singleplayer' experience they could deliver. As much as the singleplayer is excellent, now just stopping and doing something that was categorically denied before isn't doing that. That's moving the goalposts. And that's makes us, as the consumers feel mislead. Klei will do a good job of Multiplayer, of that I have no doubt. They clearly care about this game. It will be good, but my objections are about the fact that it exists at all. Don't Starve is not a game where you should play with friends. You've been tricked into entering a cruel world full of evil and mystery, and tackling it alone, you against the world is part of it's charm. This game is not meant to be something you're laughing out loud at, and unlike Minecraft and Terraria, this is a true survival game, where you are bad at fighting, and the world wants you to die. It's a game that should be hard work, and it should be a challenge. It shouldn't become 8 people hacking away at a Deerclops and it shouldn't be friends romping through, laughing their heads off. Multiplayer does not go well with the atmosphere of the game, and whilst you may want to play MP DS, and that's fine, I don't feel like it goes well with the game, and I'm not entirely sure why the developers suddenly think it will to. 

 

Also, one of the reasons they give is that 'the game was originally designed as a Singleplayer game', and so code changing would take ages. Had they originally intended for MP to be included, one can only assume they would've incorporated it into the game at the start of development for easier implementation later. This leads me to believe that minds have been changed by near-constant pressuring, and that, whilst I may be worng leads me to conclude that MP is not something that was always planned, more something that just kind of happened, and I doubt it actually is, but to me, it really smacks of squeezing every last penny out of this game. I would rather it was left to finish development than layer upon layer of new features be added. I don't think Klei would do any of this, but I'm so taken aback by this, that frankly, I'm not sure what to believe.

 

I suppose what I should say it's not that I think Klei is godlike heil Klei  it's just I trust that they won't lead us down the wrong path. And if they do and MP is a flop, well, learning experience! I'll probably still like them though. waves Canada flag fweee

 

That's fine to trust them. I expect MP to be well implemented and made, and probably fun. I just disagree with it actually being there to start with.