should maxwell be allowed to keep reading wicker's books?

[gaymime]

what it says on the tin

[SpookyXy]

How many years have we been having this discussion?

Personally, I think it's cool and thematic fitting that Maxwell can use Wicker's books but there's no denying it has a negative impact on the perception of Wicker as a character (being a swap character for Maxwell). I hope they keep the feature but make the penalties for Maxwell more harsh and don't let him read any affinity books. Maybe Wicker can get something like WX's tinkering skills where the books have stronger effects when cast by her that Maxwell can't access. But if Klei decide to revoke Maxwell's reading privleges all together I won't lose sleep over it.

[Frashaw27]

See I think so, but with an asterisk.

I actually do think that having some specific character synergies would be neat. One I had going around the old electrical slime box was that WX could use the on mass turn on forum Winona's Remote and be able to find the caches for scrap and gears but without being able to get the unique items from them. Being able to share, albiet in a limited capacity, is a lot more interested then having a bunch of things in your base that you just can't use. For Maxwell's reading ability, I feel like that due to his Shadow origins, he should have the effects of the books altered. Exceptions being the Lux Aeterna which is semi based on the Codex Umbra by his own admission and therefor shouldn't have their effects or durability decreases changed. The Lunar Grimoire should not be able to be read by him for similar reasons. Anyways, I think there should be some changes like summonable bees being shadow and thus only lasting a limited amount of time. The Everything Encyclopedia could give the user a charge for crafting a ruins item instead. Overcoming Arachnophobia summons a shadow spider with the ability to shoot the slowing webs. Pyrokenetics Explained could deal a burst of aoe fire damage simular to the range of the shadow cage. The general idea is to reflavor the books to where you can still do related stuff with them, but you can't match the extreme control over the world that Wicker has. The alternative that's easier but lamer is to allow him to read the books but give a "gunk" on the book that hard restricts it to once a day or however long.

[DimokKio]

I believe that when Maxwell reads books, instead of copying Wickerbottom's exact effects, he should trigger completely different effects tied to his shadow magic and the book itself. Sure, him being able to read books would be helpful for the whole team, but not to the same extent as when Wickerbottom reads them. She utilizes the full potential of the books, whereas Maxwell only gets out of them what he personally needs.

[Auth]

Something I always like to say is if Maxwell should be able to have full access to Wicker's books, then shouldn't Wicker get access to the codex?
And if that's true, then what's even the point of them being separate characters?

Maxwell completely outclasses Wickerbottom at her own game. So he loses more sanity on use, oh no! Not the character who can only ever benefit from having MORE ways to get nightmare fuel! Egads, what a TERRIBLE downside! It's just another thing that feeds into his strengths...

With the bookshelf making all books a one-time craft, going Wicker just to craft what you need, and then swapping back to another character with their own entire kit at your disposal, just feels like you're double-dipping two of the best and most unique characters in the game. It's absurd, and it removes all desire to play as Wickerbottom as she has nothing else long-lasting going for her. Which really sucks! I've grown to like her character and quotes a lot, but nowadays I just feel like I'm playing as Maxwell without the codex whenever I'm with her. It's sad!

Maxwell has his own progression, which is a rather crazy implementation of one, where as you progress with each nightmare milestone (Getting night armor, dark swords, magician's top hat, to then thulecite/dreadstone, and then to fuelweaver/shadow rift gear, while suffering none of these pieces' downsides, mind you), you and your minions get noticeably stronger. Meanwhile, Wickerbottom has nothing like that for herself, and Maxwell still gets to stick his fingers in each of her pies should he want to. It's such a huge discrepancy between characters that it's just... It's nuts.

While not very popular, the easiest solution would be to just rip the books out of his greedy little mitts. While a cute thought that he could still read her books, it's also just... does he really need that? Really? Still? He's already crazy good! Bleh.

[Nikki Darks]

No, and here's why.

#1 The obvious reason being it's her core identity, like Abigail, Bernie, Codex Umbra, Mightiness, etc, etc.

#2 If characters should be able to use other character's perks, then what's the point of having unique characters? You should agree to everyone being Wilson atp.

#3 Synergy doesn't mean "Steal other character's core identity", it means working together using the character's respective skills to aid one another.

#4 For those in favour of Maxwell stealing Wickerbottom's core identity... Make it so that every character can use Codex Umbra.

No character should be able to use another character's unique skill unless that skill is something akin to direct support like small Bernie, spices or Wigfrid helmets...

The whole point of having different and unique characters is that.... They are different and unique... So that you have a reason to play them?


It's one line of code, it takes less than a minute to just delete it.

[Maxil20]

I used to be pretty on the fence about this back when Maxwell had specific actions that streamlined the solo experience that no other character could replicate, and would have made it considerably more annoying to do if it was removed. Nowdays a lot of what he can do can be replicated by other methods (most notably a combination of winbots, the shadow reaper, and/or terramites). Like, the only thing I can think of that I cannot replicate whatsoever is having a quick and efficient way to gather items out of the water, which I don’t do often enough to where I would miss it too much.

I actually haven’t been playing Maxwell on my world as of late when I need to do book stuffs, because for the most part the gap has been lessened so much that I haven’t really been super concerned about the difference. Since I really only play him for gathering stuff and pretty much never touch his combat perks, I might as well play the actual Librarian at this point.

I will say that while I wouldn’t really mind if it got removed at this point, I would guarantee a major fuss would be made about pulling out this thorn from how long it’s been in the game, and I wonder if it’s why they are hesitant to remove it and/or say much about it still being here in the first place.

[KINOTAKO]

2 hours ago, SpookyXy said:

affinity books.

You think affinity books are guaranteed? (Look at WX's example.)

[DegenerateFurry]

In continuing Klei's desire to remove swap characters, he should lose the ability to use Wickerbottom's books. I don't mind the idea that he can use them to make himself go insane (like how Wurt can gain or lose sanity from books), though. 

[Baark0]

If books were a minor part of Wicker's kit then sure why not, its a fun bit of flavor to their dynamic. Problem is, Wicker's books are pretty much all she has, so when you let another character use them with the only downside being that he can't craft more of them without swapping, it makes Wicker a pretty irrelevant character for any world with the celestial portal built.

[GrapeVruit]

While I do think it's kind of ridiculous that Maxwell can read all of Wickerbottom's books, I honestly don't have that big of a problem with it? If anything, I kinda like having someone else use my stuff when I'm doing something away from base or I'm not in the server. Besides, having two mages is better than one, IMO. 

Edited May 21 by GrapeVruit

[Ridley]

Yes, Wickerbottom is a librarian. It would make sense and be fun if she taught all the survivors how to read her books. Everyone else could have a diminished effect and higher durability cost to compensate.

 

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, Ridley said:

Yes, Wickerbottom is a librarian. It would make sense and be fun if she taught all the survivors how to read her books. Everyone else could have a diminished effect and higher durability cost to compensate.

 

No, she uses it in a magic way, Maxwell can also use books in a magic way. There is a lore connection between the two and their abilities.

Wickerbottom could technically use Maxwell’s book in theory, but she believes it as evil and refuses.

[Pruinae]

There are 2 worlds I'd like to present (ofc there are more things that can happen, this is just to show my perspective). In the first one, Wickerbottom benefits from Maxwell reading her books.

1. Since Maxwell can read her books, she needs a strong skill tree to make up for it, so she can become her own character.
This affects Maxwell as well, since he can read her books, his skill tree doesn't need to be too elaborate; because we are considering the maximum potential of a character (even if it involves using the Celestial Portal...).

This leaves Wicker in a better position since she will have her books + strong skill tree, while Maxwell will have his perks + her books + less interesting skill tree.

2. We remove Maxwell's ability to read Wickerbottom books, now she has her own identity and doesn't need to get as much from a skill tree to make up for it. Maxwell gets an adequate skill tree to make up for this change.

This lessens powercreep compared to the previous options (or not, depending on how much Klei thinks they need to make up for removing his reader tag), and will most likely make some people very upset.

Personally, I'd prefer world n.1, everyone has gotten so strong that Wicker feels like she has to try 10x harder to do the same things other characters can do a lot easier. Besides controlling rain, I don't feel like she has anything that is irreplaceable.

So I guess for the poll I'd vote on "Yes, but make Wickerbottom stronger"? lol

Edited May 21 by Pruinae

[Mysterious box]

It's simply poor design to give a character another character's entire moveset it isn't even a case of swapping  being the issue Maxwell is just Wickerbottom+ he's everything she is but also Maxwell it's still baffling to this day how people attempt to justify that. People say well give her other abilities but like her defining trait is being the librarian why would she specifically be distinguished by anything other than her books as her core trait.

Edited May 21 by Mysterious box

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

No, she uses it in a magic way, Maxwell can also use books in a magic way. There is a lore connection between the two and their abilities.

Wickerbottom could technically use Maxwell’s book in theory, but she believes it as evil and refuses.

This sounds like a theory stated as fact. When I look at the quotes for the others survivors examination of the books, the explanation I see is that the books are too boring to read.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

No, she uses it in a magic way, Maxwell can also use books in a magic way. There is a lore connection between the two and their abilities.

Wickerbottom could technically use Maxwell’s book in theory, but she believes it as evil and refuses.

This falls apart when you consider she uses plenty of other shadow magic throughout the game and even more than that if magical knowledge is the only limiting factor there is absolutely no reason Wanda and Wortox wouldn't be able to use it.

[Jakepeng99]

52 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This falls apart when you consider she uses plenty of other shadow magic throughout the game and even more than that if magical knowledge is the only limiting factor there is absolutely no reason Wanda and Wortox wouldn't be able to use it.

Nah there is something up with the book since most survivors dont like it.

 

Also, why Wanda and Wortox???

2 hours ago, Ridley said:

This sounds like a theory stated as fact. When I look at the quotes for the others survivors examination of the books, the explanation I see is that the books are too boring to read.

If they could read them, they would get effects similar to Wurt

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Also, why Wanda and Wortox???

Wanda is an expert at Shadow magic potentially being active with it even longer than Maxwell due to time traveling and Wortox straight up says Maxwell doesn't even know how to use his own book right and has stated to be an expert at using all kinds or magic so both should have superior mastery of both Maxwell and Wickerbottom's books if this is a issue of magic or mastery.

Also some survivors like some books.

 

6 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

If they could read them, they would get effects similar to Wurt

This wouldn't make sense considering the main issue with Wurt is that she's reading the books upside-down and mainly focusing on the pictures. Even then everyone of the survivors have been shown to be very capable of wielding magic so no end of this would really make sense.

[Nikki Darks]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

It's simply poor design to give a character another character's entire moveset it isn't even a case of swapping  being the issue Maxwell is just Wickerbottom+ he's everything she is but also Maxwell it's still baffling to this day how people attempt to justify that. People say well give her other abilities but like her defining trait is being the librarian why would she specifically be distinguished by anything other than her books as her core trait.

Thing is, DST players don't like Wickerbottom because they find her quite boring, which is fair, we don't like everything equally.

But this causes an issue where nobody wants to play Wickerbottom but everyone wants to use her books which are very powerful, and this mindset leads to this thread's replies of "Oh I don't mind if her mains don't get to enjoy a unique character they've come to love and enjoy playing... It's not faiiiiiir that I don't get to use her CORE IDENTITY and her ONLY ABILITY without playing her!".

I will always repeat this. Give everyone their own Abigail at the start of the game and see what happens.

Give everyone a Codex Umbra and see what happens.

Give everyone the mightiness mechanic and see what happens. 

They'd all get mad, whine about* it on the forums and then it'd get changed in 3 minutes. But because Wickerbottom is boring for most players, it is perfectly fine that my character gets invalidated and rendered meaningless the moment a Maxwell joins the server.

It also doesn't help that some Streamers and YouTubers like to get on the forums and say something like "You're being selfish" or "You don't like teamplay!".

But when you ask them if they would be willing to let everyone use Codex Umbra they suddenly disappear.  

Edited May 21 by Nikki Darks

[Flarezen]

this topic again, i say simple books are fine but any advanced and i feel any new or big upgrades from her eventual skill tree maxwell should not be able to use.

[Mysterious box]

16 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Thing is, DST players don't like Wickerbottom because they find her quite boring, which is fair, we don't like everything equally.

But this causes an issue where nobody wants to play Wickerbottom but everyone wants to use her books which are very powerful, and this mindset leads to this thread's replies of "Oh I don't mind if her mains don't get to enjoy a unique character they've come to love and enjoy playing... It's not faiiiiiir that I don't get to use her CORE IDENTITY and her ONLY ABILITY without playing her!".

I will always repeat this. Give everyone their own Abigail at the start of the game and see what happens.

Give everyone a Codex Umbra and see what happens.

Give everyone the mightiness mechanic and see what happens. 

They'd all get mad, whine about* it on the forums and then it'd get changed in 3 minutes. But because Wickerbottom is boring for most players, it is perfectly fine that my character gets invalidated and rendered meaningless the moment a Maxwell joins the server.

It also doesn't help that some Streamers and YouTubers like to get on the forums and say something like "You're being selfish" or "You don't like teamplay!".

But when you ask them if they would be willing to let everyone use Codex Umbra they suddenly disappear.  

Trust me i know as we all know this wouldn't be okay for any other character as if it were we have multiple good choices for who could use the codex umbra besides Maxwell and there's never really been a good argument for why this is okay other than it's useful but again it applies to every other ability as well.

40 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Thing is, DST players don't like Wickerbottom because they find her quite boring, which is fair, we don't like everything equally.

By the way while I get some people find her boring I always feel like this happens because people tend to play her and Wormwood in a strange way that can't help but become boring and by that I mean the base sitter it's actually crazy how often people just try to dump base duties on you when you play them then get shocked when you aren't interested in playing that way. Rather than playing Wickerbottom like a caster on the go with the tools to use spells when needed or Wormwood leaning harder into his traps, debuffs, combat, and support summons.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Wanda is an expert at Shadow magic potentially being active with it even longer than Maxwell due to time traveling and Wortox straight up says Maxwell doesn't even know how to use his own book right and has stated to be an expert at using all kinds or magic so both should have superior mastery of both Maxwell and Wickerbottom's books if this is a issue of magic or mastery.

Also some survivors like some books.

None of Wickerbottom’s book show their powers are shadow related

[Ridley]

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

No, she uses it in a magic way, Maxwell can also use books in a magic way. There is a lore connection between the two and their abilities.

 

20 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

None of Wickerbottom’s book show their powers are shadow related

I don't intend to argue about this, but do you see a contradiction in these two statements?

[Mysterious box]

22 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

None of Wickerbottom’s book show their powers are shadow related

That was the original justification for him being able to read her books this literally makes your own case worse...