Would it be better if the skill tree was developed alongside tasks rather than accumulating time?

[Yaorin yon]

I think if the skill tree has a corresponding small task for each node, which is related to the character, it will be more interesting to obtain all skill points by completing all the small tasks in the end. The design of stuffing players with 15 skill points that cannot be reset in one go for a fixed number of days is very boring now.

At the same time, each task on the skill tree will be reset in the new world, similar to an independent achievement system.

[Mike23Ua]

Probably not?? Especially if they had to be Re-Unlocked every new world you start or every time the game bugged out and deletes your save data (which has happened to me twice already)

That is so so so many characters and skill trees to have to unlock, and doing it ONCE was a pain in the backside enough… I couldn’t imagine having to re-unlock them all over again.

Im fair though, I see unlocking skill points as being no different then playing “Trinity Fusion” and earning all your permanent upgrade power ups across multiple playthrough attempts.

Difference here is that DST doesn’t have a cumulative currency you earn as you play to invest into “Augments” back at the main hub after you fail a run attempt.

[Frosty_Mentos]

I wouldn't mind having few starting skill points and then having to need to do boss fights and exploratory tasks to get insight to get somewhere.

As skilltrees been going we clearly see how now majority of characters now can just demolish bosses without much struggle. There is no need for a nerf but a clear need to set everyone back enough not to demolish all bosses by day 20. This is a big ask cause it'll nerf speedrunners or people that don't do anything but that, but Klei been waaaaaaay too nice on increasing power budget on everyone instead of playing the game now people play the character abilities instead.

Back before skill trees we had to find and figure out ways to fight bosses with the resources we find at the time and what is given. Now it's kinda too much.

I can even say Maxwell if he gets a skilltree it'll be too much power in his budget cause he's already way too powerful without one. All he lacks is planar damage in his kit and he kinda doesn't need anything else.

[BezKa]

Like how WX-78 gets their circuits? Almost as if the skill trees aren't needed at all and we could have had the perks as basekit for characters with additional stuff unlockable through in-game progression

[mima_]

i can understand if some of people will oppose this because they might not have time to do whole playthrough, maybe they just come and play in public server, but want to enjoy the skilltree to the fullest. i'd say to keep it as a default setting.

but i really wish there a separated setting u know like choose between survival and some other mode, a new option to have 0 skill points but there a new interactive way to obtain each point without needing to suvive X-number of days. that would require some quest/task to be able to unlock/progress to certain skill tree branch 

[Captain_Rage]

Why would you want to add a repetitive loop to each character? For sure it would feel stale after the first run (and that is in best case, heh). The current implementation is what I prefer: unlock everything automatically as times progresses, never do it again unless the player chooses to redistribute their skill points and pretend skill trees don't even exist.

[ShadowDuelist]

I think skill points should be awarded to everyone at the same time per world time. That is at day 1 everyone in the world will have 0 skill points and at day (dunno, 75?) everyone will have all skill points available.
 

If you are a late joiner and join a world at day 100 you skip everything and get all the points from the start to be at same level as everyone else.

I think this could encourage all the new players that are forever stuck in the “only play first autumn, leave to never return at day 20” to try to push themselves past it.

[Valase]

I think that this is not so good of an Idea because of how certain thresholds would go against when you "unlock" them. Wormwood is the best example of this, each of his utility branches end up on something that you can interact rather early, getting 4 stingers for his bramble husk, finding the lunar grotto, finding any setpiece with a spoiled fish.

5 hours ago, BezKa said:

Like how WX-78 gets their circuits? Almost as if the skill trees aren't needed at all and we could have had the perks as basekit for characters with additional stuff unlockable through in-game progression

the skill trees gave some cranks and levers that can be changed around without much hassle, as well as enabling different "power" routes, even though most of the characters already have a "meta" of skills.

Out of every rework(not skill trees), I don't think that we had something introduced and then removed, basically every rework beta was more of a tuning of numbers rather than having the possibility to add new things through player feedback.

Actually we had Abi gaining damage based on Wendy missing health and Wolfang losing mightness when taking damage.

 

[Yaorin yon]

I cannot understand the reasons why many people argue against it. It's like they prefer to play roles that are very "OP" for the early stages of the game, I don't understand. Isn't this making the game more boring?

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Probably not?? Especially if they had to be Re-Unlocked every new world you start or every time the game bugged out and deletes your save data (which has happened to me twice already)

That is so so so many characters and skill trees to have to unlock, and doing it ONCE was a pain in the backside enough… I couldn’t imagine having to re-unlock them all over again.

Im fair though, I see unlocking skill points as being no different then playing “Trinity Fusion” and earning all your permanent upgrade power ups across multiple playthrough attempts.

Difference here is that DST doesn’t have a cumulative currency you earn as you play to invest into “Augments” back at the main hub after you fail a run attempt.

Isn't this a survival game that challenges oneself? Why is it necessary to first enjoy the power that does not belong to the initial stage in the new world? This makes me feel that the game will be boring. Should DST be a lawn mowing game?

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, Yaorin yon said:

I cannot understand the reasons why many people argue against it. It's like they prefer to play roles that are very "OP" for the early stages of the game, I don't understand. Isn't this making the game more boring?

Isn't this a survival game that challenges oneself? Why is it necessary to first enjoy the power that does not belong to the initial stage in the new world? This makes me feel that the game will be boring. Should DST be a lawn mowing game?

There are two types of sub genres in the game category of “Rogue” and regardless of how much Klei tries to shove that under a bus…. Don’t Starve is still put in that list (it’s surprisingly also #4 in the top 25)

Roguelike: Which is generally considered- Dying is permanent and you’ll lose all progress you’ve EVER made and start from the very beginning again when you die.

And RogueLite: Each play session you’ll slowly unlock permanent upgrades to help you get through the game more easily, you’ll be forced to start over a new run, yes.. but you’ll be doing so with newly unlocked skills and abilities.

Dont Starve (the single player game) was more like a RogueLite, you started with ONLY Wilson Unlocked & as you played you earned EXP to unlock *almost* all the other characters. some of them had special unlock requirements like finding Wes in Chapter 3 of Adventures mode or beating the campaign and trading places with Maxwell- But for Everyone else they unlocked Overtime with Exp earned as you played.

I feel the need to explain that when you start as Wilson, unlocking Wolfgang or Wendy later on is 2x Damage and an AoE assistant follower. But once those characters were unlocked, they were permanently useable for all future playing sessions.

DST does this through its skill tree, instead of locking characters behind Exp or Specific in-game tasks… (only Wonkey is unlocked through in game task) You instead unlock permanent upgrades in Skill Tree.

Some of those will require just gaining “Exp” but others require specific actions (such as blowing a Beefalo horn to unlock one of Wigfrids)

TL:DR- It’s the exact same kind of Roguelite style unlocking progression that Don’t Stare was, just presented in a slightly different way.

What your wanting (where they have to be unlocked every single play session) is more of a RogueLIKE.

[Yaorin yon]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

There are two types of sub genres in the game category of “Rogue” and regardless of how much Klei tries to shove that under a bus…. Don’t Starve is still put in that list (it’s surprisingly also #4 in the top 25)

Roguelike: Which is generally considered- Dying is permanent and you’ll lose all progress you’ve EVER made and start from the very beginning again when you die.

And RogueLite: Each play session you’ll slowly unlock permanent upgrades to help you get through the game more easily, you’ll be forced to start over a new run, yes.. but you’ll be doing so with newly unlocked skills and abilities.

Dont Starve (the single player game) was more like a RogueLike, you started with ONLY Wilson Unlocked & as you played you earned EXP to unlock *almost* all the other characters. some of them had special unlock requirements like finding Wes in Chapter 3 of Adventures mode or beating the campaign and trading places with Maxwell- But for Everyone else they unlocked Overtime with Exp earned as you played.

I feel the need to explain that when you start as Wilson, unlocking Wolfgang or Wendy later on is 2x Damage and an AoE assistant follower. But once those characters were unlocked, they were permanently useable for all future playing sessions.

DST does this through its skill tree, instead of locking characters behind Exp or Specific in-game tasks… (only Wonkey is unlocked through in game task) You instead unlock permanent upgrades in Skill Tree.

Some of those will require just gaining “Exp” but others require specific actions (such as blowing a Beefalo horn to unlock one of Wigfrids)

TL:DR- It’s the exact same kind of Roguelite style unlocking progression that Don’t Stare was, just presented in a slightly different way.

What your wanting (where they have to be unlocked every single play session) is more of a RogueLIKE.

So, what do you want to express? I don't understand the relationship between your explanation of roguelike games and my ideas. I just don't think the current skill tree mode is fun. Many of my friends think the current skill tree mode is not fun. Providing top-notch power directly in the beginner's world is neither in line with the game process nor able to generate richer gameplay. Getting these powers in advance not only allows you to play this game that should be focused on survival exploration leisurely, but also truly provides the fun that should be present in survival games?

[Frosty_Mentos]

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

*snip*

I don't think people care about the genres and people care that the game doesn't end up, as quote as that person said 'a lawn mowing game.' Skill trees make all characters to become unbearably powerful while the select couple generally start off most powerful cause it's their usual gimmick. Some require power growth by playing the game while others rely on their power budget to increase mostly through skill trees.

Skill trees tho aren't generally balanced around early game at all. They exist for lategame more than early as many skills are too powerful for that stage. People been wanting a change to this system cause this makes survival even more trivial and bosses stop existing as threats. Willow's kit is prime example, for that she has extremely high power on her Bernie or her fire powers, making her virtually more powerful than Wolfgang by utility and safer damage types.

I want my game feel like I'm progressing, not have skills unlocked for all sessions.

[Mike23Ua]

36 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

So, what do you want to express? I don't understand the relationship between your explanation of roguelike games and my ideas. I just don't think the current skill tree mode is fun. Many of my friends think the current skill tree mode is not fun. Providing top-notch power directly in the beginner's world is neither in line with the game process nor able to generate richer gameplay. Getting these powers in advance not only allows you to play this game that should be focused on survival exploration leisurely, but also truly provides the fun that should be present in survival games?

I explained that in my post didn’t I? Alright, maybe you only skipped through it cause it was too long..

In Solo Don’t Starve you start with Wilson, everyone else is locked behind gaining Exp.. as you gain Exp, you’ll slowly unlock new characters to play as. Wolfgang (in Solo DS) was a better character choice than Wilson.

The entire game was sit up in this way.

With DST all characters are unlocked from the very beginning, but instead of starting as Wilson and permanently unlocking more powerful characters, you can start as anyone and permanently unlock more powerful skills.

[Maxposting]

38 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I explained that in my post didn’t I?

No, not really. You said words about genres but didn't explain what you fundamentally think about the trees outside the first post or what your suggestions are.

[Mike23Ua]

24 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

No, not really. You said words about genres but didn't explain what you fundamentally think about the trees outside the first post or what your suggestions are.

It’s the same thing as trying to beat solo DS’s adventures mode. You’ll start with Wilson.. and you’ll eventually unlock other characters like Wendy or WX78 that will make completing the game even easier.

[Lucky star]

There is no point in arguing. If you want to experience it, you can slowly add points yourself instead of forcing everyone to be the same as you. The current method of adding points has not been discussed by most players.

It's reasonable for now. Don't waste time updating. Hope to increase the utilization rate of some rare items as soon as possible.

15 hours ago, Yaorin yon said:

I think if the skill tree has a corresponding small task for each node, which is related to the character, it will be more interesting to obtain all skill points by completing all the small tasks in the end. The design of stuffing players with 15 skill points that cannot be reset in one go for a fixed number of days is very boring now.

At the same time, each task on the skill tree will be reset in the new world, similar to an independent achievement system.

 

[Well-met]

23 minutes ago, Lucky star said:

There is no point in arguing. If you want to experience it, you can slowly add points yourself instead of forcing everyone to be the same as you. The current method of adding points has not been discussed by most players.

It's reasonable for now. Don't waste time updating. Hope to increase the utilization rate of some rare items as soon as possible.

 

trying to shutdown a discussion isn't how you're going to attract a consensus. If klei is going to ... "waste time updating" wendy then we certainly can afford it for something as important as skill trees.

there is room for improvement of the insight system and many regulars have taken a go at it for some time now. meanwhile you barely have ten posts in.

 

[Cassielu]

NO, It's a terrible idea. A skilltree that is not shared between different worlds is worse.

We already have a better progress system than skilltree that is not shared between worlds, it's called collecting resources, special items dropped by bosses, or special items provided by seasons/biomes.

In this case skilltree will be completely redundant, there is no reason for it to still exist as "a skilltree".

[Cheggf]

17 hours ago, BezKa said:

Like how WX-78 gets their circuits? Almost as if the skill trees aren't needed at all and we could have had the perks as basekit for characters with additional stuff unlockable through in-game progression

Mark this as the answer, please.

[Well-met]

56 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

In this case skilltree will be completely redundant, there is no reason for it to still exist as "a skilltree".

please explain why

[Yaorin yon]

1 hour ago, Cassielu said:

NO, It's a terrible idea. A skilltree that is not shared between different worlds is worse.

We already have a better progress system than skilltree that is not shared between worlds, it's called collecting resources, special items dropped by bosses, or special items provided by seasons/biomes.

In this case skilltree will be completely redundant, there is no reason for it to still exist as "a skilltree".

I think that with each task in a game, making your skill tree more complete and eventually fully lit up will be a very fulfilling and practical reward, rather than OP or boring content. And like now, emmm。 I almost had the power to open cracks in the first autumn, and at the same time, I was assigned 15 finite points in endless selection difficulties. I think this is too discouraging.

1 hour ago, Cassielu said:

NO, It's a terrible idea. A skilltree that is not shared between different worlds is worse.

We already have a better progress system than skilltree that is not shared between worlds, it's called collecting resources, special items dropped by bosses, or special items provided by seasons/biomes.

In this case skilltree will be completely redundant, there is no reason for it to still exist as "a skilltree".

Meanwhile, the biggest difference between this design and resource collection is. Each skill point is equipped with a character specific task, which can better guide players who use this character to get started and adapt to its characteristics. This is completely different from resource gathering, that's my idea.

[Cassielu]

42 minutes ago, Well-met said:

please explain why

In the case of lunar fire, if you don't want it to be shared between worlds, have defeat CC to unlock.

Then you can add a flamethrower that need enlightening shard to craft. Or a note given by Wagstaff, learning it will allow you to use lunar fire.

Giving player new powers in form like is more consistent with the rest of the game, more aesthetically pleasing, more acquired, and requires less work than opening a new HUD and clicking a button, so it doesn't have to be a skill on the skilltree.