The Great Depth Worm could be just what the caves need

[00petar00]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Fighting Moose/Goose as Wanda? that’s great.. until frog rain starts, you get licked by a frog, drop your anti-aging watch, a catcoon snatches it up off the ground and Carry’s it back to his tree stump.

Frogs actually kill moose goose instead, so I don't see the point here. Moose goose is a weaker boss and it is very easy to stop the fight and come back because you don't really have to prepare much and don't lose out on weapons and armor.

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And it’s a game of “Uncompromising” nature (it’s even in the product description!)

Sorry to say but that was only used for advertising and word uncompromising was there for DS when dying meant something but you could still build meat effigies, game was always easy otherwise.

That word was used to advertise DST because they just took it from DS steam page.

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I don't even think this needs to be listed for this to matter rougelites are games where things can go wrong fast if your not paying attention it's likely the reason they originally were against making the game multiplayer leaving everything under our control down to the last inch goes against the nature of the game. This isn't to say unavoidable destruction should be allowed but that's not something they've done since they fixed portals spawning on base.

Rouguelike games usually revolve around permadeath and DST has evolved from DS for that to not matter.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, 00petar00 said:

Rouguelike games usually revolve around permadeath and DST has evolved from DS for that to not matter.

No it hasn't unless you specifically turn off perma death you will always be able to die and the world will reset when or if you corner yourself enough to die without a backup and there are various rougelites that have offered a similar easy mode option.

[Mike23Ua]

MacTusks became harder to kill when Klei removed their stun-lock, running in and stealing Pengull eggs became more difficult when players now slip on ice and fall on their butts.

Like it or not… the game is changing, and the ways we used to over-familiarize ourselves with playing are suddenly being made unfamiliar again.

I mean sure I can make suggestions, such as letting a loud horn you obtain from Lucky rabbit or a new boss drop from Moose/Goose being able to Startle and Annoy the giant worm into retreating back into the ground, but that’s not going to prevent it from attacking you… it’s just going to give you time to run out of your base area before it destroys your base.

And to make sure players aren’t just abusing continuously “annoying” him to go back into the soil, the horn could only work so many times before the worm gets very ticked off and hell bent on killing you to stop the noise.

[cybers2001]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm one but explain to me if your not using moggles what point do you have to pick glow berries? The fight servers no purpose only if your someone who is playing just for whatever a thing gives you and not for the experience but if you are playing for the experience what joy is there in randomly running around every single glowberry in the caves for the chance to maybe fight this worm? 

Your idea works for someone who doesn't want to engage but not someone who does.

That just sounds to me like the issue is with your gameplay loop, if anything. Depth worms as subterranean hounds has never sat right with me in the first place. It’s akin to the hound waves in shipwrecked before Klei finally switched to crocs. I find it excusable for the sole reason that it’s easy glowberries for moggles, but if you don’t even use those then there’s even less redeeming qualities about the experience.

What if Klei had more valid uses for glow berries? What if the boss had a different type of lure that was more desirable to seek out?

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

That just sounds to me like the issue is with your gameplay loop, if anything. Depth worms as subterranean hounds has never sat right with me in the first place. It’s akin to the hound waves in shipwrecked before Klei finally switched to crocs. I find it excusable for the sole reason that it’s easy glowberries for moggles, but if you don’t even use those then there’s even less redeeming qualities about the experience.

What if Klei had more valid uses for glow berries? What if the boss had a different type of lure that was more desirable to seek out?

I just eat the ones from waves is that not good enough? I don't see why it needs to be another random toadstool like entity of the caves it just ruins it's impact nor is it complex enough for it to be just a normal boss. Also I don't get why depthworms working like hounds doesn't make sense most creatures in the caves can't pick or don't eat non meat items of course they'd have to go hunting for food how else would they survive in situations where humanoids didn't actively seek them out.

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Frogs actually kill moose goose instead, so I don't see the point here. Moose goose is a weaker boss and it is very easy to stop the fight and come back because you don't really have to prepare much and don't lose out on weapons and armor.

Sorry to say but that was only used for advertising and word uncompromising was there for DS when dying meant something but you could still build meat effigies, game was always easy otherwise.

That word was used to advertise DST because they just took it from DS steam page.

Rouguelike games usually revolve around permadeath and DST has evolved from DS for that to not matter.

Moose Goose being killed by frog rain is the norm, what is NOT the Norm is playing as Wanda and having a frog lick you into dropping your watches, which Catcoons are programmed to steal and take back to their houses- This is a Wanda exclusive gameplay mechanic..

And, Why would that be important? Because without the Ageless watch, Wanda’s going to start dying if A: She’s too cold, B: She’s struck by lightning, C: Lunar Hail..

I mean, DS and DST are games that are most fun when a bunch of smaller problems all pile up on each other and create a bigger problem.

Newbies fighting Deerclops? They’re experience will likely go as Follows-

Attempt to fight, go insane and spawn nightmare creatures, give up and RUN, Start Freezing to Death, keep running.. meet your unfortunate end to Freezing, or the Nightmares catching up to you, Or getting one shot by the newly spawned MacTusk Darts.

Thats DST in a Nutshell.

And no RogueLites don’t always have to revolve around permanent death, they have to revolve around PUNISHING death… 

So like when you die in DST and lose portions of your health core? Yeah that..

[cybers2001]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

I just eat the ones from waves is that not good enough? I don't see why it needs to be another random toadstool like entity of the caves it just ruins it's impact nor is it complex enough for it to be just a normal boss. Also I don't get why depthworms working like hounds doesn't make sense most creatures in the caves can't pick or don't eat non meat items of course they'd have to go hunting for food how else would they survive in situations where humanoids didn't actively seek them out.

I don’t understand what “random toadstool like entity” implies. Are you saying you just don’t like exploring the caves?

[Mysterious box]

Again though I feel like your more focused on what you get rather than the experience.

Just now, cybers2001 said:

I don’t understand what “random toadstool like entity” implies. Are you saying you just don’t like exploring the caves?

toadstool is just a random out of place mushroom you find in the caves which works as it's own thing but your suggestion on making it just a glowberry you pick to spawn it is just repeating the same process but adding rng.

It's not even about just exploring the caves the greater worm's impact comes from the fact that it hunts you down once you remove that it's not complex enough to stand on it's own.

To give a different example let's say klei added 12 big mushrooms throughout the caves and one of them will be the real toadstool at random would that add anything positive to the fight?

[00petar00]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Moose Goose being killed by frog rain is the norm, what is NOT the Norm is playing as Wanda and having a frog lick you into dropping your watches, which Catcoons are programmed to steal and take back to their houses- This is a Wanda exclusive gameplay mechanic..

I have like 2000 hours played as Wanda and that or anything similar has never happened to me.

 

[cybers2001]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Again though I feel like your more focused on what you get rather than the experience.

toadstool is just a random out of place mushroom you find in the caves which works as it's own thing but your suggestion on making it just a glowberry you pick to spawn it is just repeating the same process but adding rng.

Okay but do you also get upset when you have to chop trees to spawn a tree guard?

This is a below-epic class mob we’re still talking about.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

Okay but do you also get upset when you have to chop trees to spawn a tree guard?

This is a below-epic class mob we’re still talking about.

No because I just go to the lunar grotto instead of forcing a tree guard spawn it's nice when it happens but rng isn't really a factor anymore and I'm sure most everyone would agree that's a good thing.

Actually to add to this imagine if you had to go to the swamp and chop trees at the same rate every time you wanted to spawn tree guards would that make tree guards more engaging?

[gaymime]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I have like 2000 hours played as Wanda and that or anything similar has never happened to me.

 

mike only plays wendy, please don't mind him when he talks about other characters. it is just easier that way

[cybers2001]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

No because I just go to the lunar grotto instead of forcing a tree guard spawn it's nice when it happens but rng isn't really a factor anymore and I'm sure most everyone would agree that's a good thing.

So “RNG Fight A” which drops loot you can get elsewhere is A-okay because you can ignore it, but you will fight to the death to deny “RNG Fight B” which also drops loot you can get elsewhere?

[Mysterious box]

Just now, cybers2001 said:

So “RNG Fight A” which drops loot you can get elsewhere is A-okay because you can ignore it, but you will fight to the death to deny “RNG Fight B” which also drops loot you can get elsewhere?

You seem to lacking the critical information that I don't care about the drop but the fight.

Quite strawmanish in nature in fact.

[cybers2001]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

You seem to lacking the critical information that I don't care about the drop but the fight.

I guess I can’t wrap my head around someone not caring about long-term implications and complementary gameplay loop experiences just because they want to experience a fight in a game that is much more than just mid-boss mob fights.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, cybers2001 said:

I guess I can’t wrap my head around someone not caring about long-term implications and complementary gameplay loop experiences just because they want to experience a fight in a game that is much more than just mid-boss mob fights.

As stated above it's fine I see it as a mini boss you see it as a actual boss we can agree to disagree. I am looking at the long term implications it's why I've been suggesting solutions towards making it safer for base building without gutting the feel of the encounter but I prefer to have fun playing for the experience rather than calculating what gains I get from every encounter. We each experience the game in our own ways and I don't think that'll change soon.

Consider this to some less experienced players a rook could even be considered a boss like entity.

[cybers2001]

51 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

As stated above it's fine I see it as a mini boss you see it as a actual boss we can agree to disagree. I am looking at the long term implications it's why I've been suggesting solutions towards making it safer for base building without gutting the feel of the encounter but I prefer to have fun playing for the experience rather than calculating what gains I get from every encounter. We each experience the game in our own ways and I don't think that'll change soon.

I’m yet to see a single constructive suggestion on your end to address actual concerns other players have, while simultaneously shutting down any other compromising ideas.

[Mysterious box]

11 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

I’m yet to see a single constructive suggestion on your end to address actual concerns other players have, while simultaneously shutting down any other compromising ideas.

You mean aside from increased warning times, a more unique cew for when it's coming, making the other worms flee when it spawns, and the idea of making a setting that makes player made structures indestructible? If you spent less time targeting people in your responses maybe you would have seen it. Also the only ideas I specifically didn't like were the ones that said place it in a random area or throw your hands up and leave it to rng there were suggestions I was fine with like making it a once a season thing, making only 1 spawn per wave, lowering the damage, increasing it's exposed timer when eating non mobs, and a few others just because I didn't like your idea of how to handle it doesn't mean I shut down every suggestion made unless you represent everyone.

[PunkShark]

putting my own cents into the arguement of the worm boss implementation and i personally don't see the reason to make it into a findable boss. We have plenty of those in the game, and the caves lack any sort of danger when you're out exploring. Most of the danger in the caves is what you find. But the worm is like a universal "seasonal" boss (which is something we've asked for) without being exclusive to a season. The only issue is not knowing when it comes due to it being part of the worm waves. We're not dealing with the average varglet here. It's destructive and deathly with a capital D. It needs a different warning sign if you so happen to get a wave with big ol' Bertha. As any giant seasonal boss it should have a clearer indication if it's on its way.

To add another layer into it, have it dig into the ground after a while like a regular worm with a *clear* indication on what type of glowberry it is. So it sleeps until you feel like waking it up when you're ready for it. Of course, it should still have a unique drop or drops to make it worth fighting for which i'm sure we'll get later in the coming weeks.

Having it sit in some random part of the caves is not it. we already have toadstool and i'd prefer the caves to be filled with content that isn't related to just fighting bosses but rewards for exploration.

[cybers2001]

28 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You mean aside from increased warning times, a more unique cew for when it's coming, making the other worms flee when it spawns, and the idea of making a setting that makes player made structures indestructible? If you spent less time targeting people in your responses maybe you would have seen it.

None of which are found in this thread. Am I supposed to peruse every topic to determine your overall contribution on the matter? You talk about targeting people, which is ironic because I’m still here just defending a suggestion while you blankly attack it and choose to bring up strawmanning, lol.

24 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

Having it sit in some random part of the caves is not it. we already have toadstool and i'd prefer the caves to be filled with content that isn't related to just fighting bosses but rewards for exploration.

Tbh nobody is really asking for that, are they? It seemed most of the criticisms I’ve seen about the caves in the first place is because of all the useless biomes that exist. This was a highly anticipated update for that reason, yet instead we just get another thing that comes and wrecks bases. It’s been… a challenging year and a half for bird person.

[Mysterious box]

23 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

None of which are found in this thread. Am I supposed to peruse every topic to determine your overall contribution on the matter? You talk about targeting people, which is ironic because I’m still here just defending a suggestion while you blankly attack it and choose to bring up strawmanning, lol.

Normally no if you stayed on topic you wouldn't even have to but when you make claims like this

 

37 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

I’m yet to see a single constructive suggestion on your end to address actual concerns other players have, while simultaneously shutting down any other compromising ideas.

I expect you to back that up. You put yourself in that situation not me. You are not entitled to have anyone on this forum agree with your ideas or for them to show you all the ones they've posted in a active beta with multiple topics covering the same subject but before you made your accusation you should have simply asked what my suggestions were or looked through other threads as I've mentioned some of my ideas in multiple or if you were feeling so frustrated you could have ended the conversation, ignored me, or blocked me.

 

1 hour ago, cybers2001 said:

So “RNG Fight A” which drops loot you can get elsewhere is A-okay because you can ignore it, but you will fight to the death to deny “RNG Fight B” which also drops loot you can get elsewhere?

I brought up strawman because this completely misrepresented the conversation to make my argument easier to gloss over which is quite literally what the definition of a strawman is. 

an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

As the only way this argument works is if I was specifically planning to fight the greater worm for it's drops which nowhere in this thread did I even imply I wanted to do

 

[PunkShark]

33 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

Tbh nobody is really asking for that, are they? It seemed most of the criticisms I’ve seen about the caves in the first place is because of all the useless biomes that exist. This was a highly anticipated update for that reason, yet instead we just get another thing that comes and wrecks bases.

Op mentions as the worm should just have its own main area somewhere in the caves as a regular boss. Not the only one who has suggested this but it's been a common suggestion.

As i mentioned before, for it to not wreck bases. It needs better warning sign. And it'll be like being on the surface. Leave your base as soon as you hear the big bad is coming. And that should make it fine. We haven't had a real boss that comes to meet you face to face for years as big as this guy. And it's the perfect idea of a seasonal boss in the caves without being no threat early on for people who just likes to spelunk. while being an actual threat otherwise.

As much as i wanted cave content in this update (which is still possible) i just don't think putting the worm in some random biome would make it anymore engaging as much as toadstool is. Especially when we do not know any of the (if there is) upcoming loot in the works which could just make it into an abandoned area and especially not with it's current loot.
 

[cybers2001]

10 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

Op mentions as the worm should just have its own main area somewhere in the caves as a regular boss. Not the only one who has suggested this but it's been a common suggestion.

As i mentioned, for it to not wreck bases. It needs better warning sign. And it'll be like being on the surface. Leave your base as soon as you hear the big bad is coming. And that should make it fine.

I think if we had a shiny new biome to play with, nobody would have an issue with the new looming threat residing there. Would be cool to have a tremors style immersion where it can sense your presence, and you’d have to tread and loot carefully to avoid disturbing it unless you’re prepared to fight it.

[cybers2001]

59 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I brought up strawman because this completely misrepresented the conversation to make my argument easier to gloss over which is quite literally what the definition of a strawman is. 
 

Oh not at all. I already knew me defending your attacks would be a waste of time, so my hope was that by attacking your position, I would find a more logical grounds to debate from, but that obviously didn’t work lol.

[Mysterious box]

31 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

Oh not at all. I already knew me defending your attacks would be a waste of time, so my hope was that by attacking your position, I would find a more logical grounds to debate from, but that obviously didn’t work lol.

Attacks is it? Reread our entire conversation in this thread tell me where I "attacked" you or do you consider debating you attacking?

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I still stand by my response to it. That it'll lead to frustration for people who actually wanted to face it and just become another forgotten boss for almost everyone else since not that many people go around picking glowberries. Also depthworms don't just sit around all day waiting for food they can and do actively hunt for it when they are hungry.

That being said it's okay to disagree.

 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm one but explain to me if your not using moggles what point do you have to pick glow berries? The fight servers no purpose only if your someone who is playing just for whatever a thing gives you and not for the experience but if you are playing for the experience what joy is there in randomly running around every single glowberry in the caves for the chance to maybe fight this worm? 

Your idea works for someone who doesn't want to engage but not someone who does.

 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I just eat the ones from waves is that not good enough? I don't see why it needs to be another random toadstool like entity of the caves it just ruins it's impact nor is it complex enough for it to be just a normal boss. Also I don't get why depthworms working like hounds doesn't make sense most creatures in the caves can't pick or don't eat non meat items of course they'd have to go hunting for food how else would they survive in situations where humanoids didn't actively seek them out.

 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Again though I feel like your more focused on what you get rather than the experience.

toadstool is just a random out of place mushroom you find in the caves which works as it's own thing but your suggestion on making it just a glowberry you pick to spawn it is just repeating the same process but adding rng.

It's not even about just exploring the caves the greater worm's impact comes from the fact that it hunts you down once you remove that it's not complex enough to stand on it's own.

To give a different example let's say klei added 12 big mushrooms throughout the caves and one of them will be the real toadstool at random would that add anything positive to the fight?

 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

No because I just go to the lunar grotto instead of forcing a tree guard spawn it's nice when it happens but rng isn't really a factor anymore and I'm sure most everyone would agree that's a good thing.

Actually to add to this imagine if you had to go to the swamp and chop trees at the same rate every time you wanted to spawn tree guards would that make tree guards more engaging?

 

3 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

So “RNG Fight A” which drops loot you can get elsewhere is A-okay because you can ignore it, but you will fight to the death to deny “RNG Fight B” which also drops loot you can get elsewhere?

In fact up until you made this misrepresentation of my issue with the Worm being a rng glowberry picking minigame where was the attack? I lined them up for you.