Do you like Ancient Fuelweaver as-is or would you like to see him changed or reworked?

[Swiyss]

18 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

pretending that doesn't involve spending tens of hours practicing a fight they can't stand doing.

My japanese friend who only played mobile games in his entire LIFE played dst for the first time in his life and it took him 3 rollbacks for deerclops, 6 tries in dfly, around 20 rollbacks in the bee queen fight (yeah), but then when we got to cc he did it first try. He basically saw someone doing it and copied it. All you need is to not think it is hard. It's just a bunch of pixels and hitboxes.

[ShadowDuelist]

FW is fine.
If anything, they could touch the nightmare creatures behavior during that fight, not leaving you alone really long after you are sane again, and even after they hit you a lot of times.
But it's mostly RNG, you either get lucky with them leaving you alone when they should (because you are sane!), or you don't get lucky, and you probably need to roll back.

It's not a FW thing per se, more of a nightmare creatures weird behavior really.

[Mysterious box]

33 minutes ago, arubaro said:

These "rework [whatever]" topics really looks like asking for decreasing the difficulty.

I mean intentionally or not that's kind of what boss reworks have always been a drastic drop in difficulty take ancient guardian for example I legitimately believe he's a easier fight than deerclopes with the biggest hurdle being actually reaching him. 

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

If anything, they could touch the nightmare creatures behavior during that fight, not leaving you alone really long after you are sane again, and even after they hit you a lot of times

they already fixed that, they deaggro after 2.5 seconds after you become sane

[Mysterious box]

25 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

The only people defending Fuelweaver who actually have a point are the ones suggesting using Brightshade gear against him.

This isn't really a fair argument as this fight has existed long before post rift content existed and not everyone who has beaten him is some hardcore veteran the brightshade gear has made the fight easier but it's not like it was impossible to learn without thousands of hours of practice.

 

[Swiyss]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean intentionally or not that's kind of what boss reworks have always been a drastic drop in difficulty take ancient guardian for example I legitimately believe he's a easier fight than deerclopes with the biggest hurdle being actually reaching him. 

Dev intention was one, almost everyone cheesed the fight. Then they reworked the fight entirely, making it simply more boring and a "walk behind the pillar" minigame instead of just fixing the cheese.

Again, it's them taking the problem, ignoring it, reworking the fight, for it to be the same thing, but different. The problem is still there.

It's the same thing they did in the crab king fight. The problem is still there, people are still only going to use 1 gem, and panflute the minions. Claws don't even tickle you now, and he can't even heal now before "taunting". He looks like the Son of the Crab king or smthn

[arubaro]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean intentionally or not that's kind of what boss reworks have always been a drastic drop in difficulty take ancient guardian for example I legitimately believe he's a easier fight than deerclopes with the biggest hurdle being actually reaching him. 

Agree. Refresh shouldn't mean difficulty drop but you know how things work over here

With AG we kinda won for how fun he become and tbh, the difficulty is fair considering the risks of the way and how everything can end up if you arent carefully with the tentacles. I think it feels easy because klei did is spamming now: giving too much room for damaging the boss but keeping the hp low... before was AG and now CK (is so ridiculous to see the boss stand still while you deal/row to ignore the claws...). Seems like op wants it because is asking for more room to hit the boss :/

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

almost everyone cheesed the fight

Everyone isn't looking up guides on how to cheese every fight a vocal crowd may have cheesed it but most players don't know that cheese it is even a option.

 

6 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Then they reworked the fight entirely, making it simply more boring and a "walk behind the pillar" minigame instead of just fixing the cheese.

Because the community will throw a fit if klei dares touches cheese for example if they delete void travel to implement Winona's vine bridges in caves you better find a bunker because it'll be all out war.

[arubaro]

5 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

simply more boring

It was beyond boring... it could take +15 min and he perform a single atack over and over... AG could have more HP but is way funnier than before

[Swiyss]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Because the community will throw a fit if klei dares touches cheese for example if they delete void travel to implement Winona's vine bridges in caves you better find a bunker because it'll be all out war.

we're doomed I guess. Klei can't touch their own game because of complaints from people when there's always the option of using gunpowder or overpowered strats basically.

[arubaro]

Just now, Swiyss said:

we're doomed I guess. Klei can't touch their own game because of complaints from people when there's always the option of using gunpowder or overpowered strats basically.

Plus the powercreep of lately but never is enough. People want to be afk and win

happy hormones for everyone!

[Swiyss]

7 minutes ago, arubaro said:

It was beyond boring... it could take +15 min and he perform a single atack over and over... AG could have more HP but is way funnier than before

Yeah, it was not even a fight. It was a holding F simulator. Now we still hold F, but we have to walk behind pillars every 5 seconds.

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Agree. Refresh shouldn't mean difficulty drop but you know how things work over here

With AG we kinda won for how fun he become and tbh, the difficulty is fair considering the risks of the way and how everything can end up if you arent carefully with the tentacles. I think it feels easy because klei did is spamming now: giving too much room for damaging the boss but keeping the hp low... before was AG and now CK (is so ridiculous to see the boss stand still while you deal/row to ignore the claws...). Seems like op wants it because is asking for more room to hit the boss :/

Don't get me wrong the fight for guardian is better he was just meant to represent how reworks make fights easier .

[arubaro]

15 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah, it was not even a fight. It was a holding F simulator. Now we still hold F, but we have to walk behind pillars every 5 seconds.

Do you mean the cheese? Because fighting him legit was a pain

You needed enough speed and you had very little room to hit. 2 or 3 hits was the common ammount outside of very experienced players. Imagine how much time, how repetitive and how much room for mistakes (being hit could mean getting 2 hits of 100 damage each...) had that fight...

[Swiyss]

20 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Do you mean the cheese? Because fighting him legit was a pain

You needed enough speed and you had very little room to hit. 2 or 3 hits was the common ammount outside of very experienced players. Imagine how much time, how repetitive and how much room for mistakes (being hit could mean getting 2 hits of 100 damage each...) was that fight...

I mean, I hate to be that guy, or to link anything without credit or something. But.. just search on YT and you'll find a video of someone beating AG without the pillars. That's what Klei should've focused on, a normal fight. Literally just making AG ram through graves would already fix the boss.

I'm much more happy fighting him that way than current pillar ramming strat.

[arubaro]

8 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I mean, I hate to be that guy, or to link anything without credit or something. But.. just search on YT and you'll find a video of someone beating AG without the pillars. That's what Klei should've focused on, a normal fight. Literally just making AG ram through graves would already fix the boss.

I'm much more happy fighting him that way than current pillar ramming strat.

Personally i like the direction.  Dst isnt the 1st game to have a rhino/bull having mechanics of charging towards a wall or pillar to be stunned.  The good thing is that in this game that isn't the only game to damage him

The problem is that, at max distance, you can hit him +15 times and gives you like +5seconds of warning to stop hitting and hug the next pillar... i complain about that in the past but wasnt changed and even there were people defending such bad balance

What is concerning me is how klei said they will add challenging stuff for veterans. That they will make the game more accessible for new players but will be harder to master.

What we got?: 

- rifts: both with easy to deal mobs, uninteresting implementation of mechanics (miasma could be cool if affected more areas) and both destrous stuff arround which means tons of resources for free instead of mutating everything on it to be hostile towards the player..

- lunar hail: earthquake clone but easier to dodge due to not having screen shake mechanic and is countered completely by simply equiping 1 long durability item that can be repaired at a very cheap cost. When was released the hail even killed stuff for you so it gave free loot

- acid rain: low dps (until heavy rains) with the interesting of rooting yout food. Didnt experience much about how it changes mobs but could be cool. Is countered completely by the same long durability item...atleast wetness builds up if you arent wearing protection all the time, acid should also be wet so we acumulate acid to damage us when we are protected if we didnt it at time or something more impactful

- BS helmet: armor, damage boost, cheap to repair, more bounces for the BS staff, storm protection,  chalie protection and, for some reason enlightement protecton. Idk why klei heard the suggestions for such awful change, something that totally ignores the main moon mechanic shouldnt also give armor and even less it should have 5 different helmets. I guess klei won't add more helmets because idk what could beat this if isnt an absurd item. Also this item killed the use of other pre-rift weapons...bye bye gear management

- ink trio: cool fight with 2 big problems. Is an optional fight which makes them really tame, they could have been some kind of "wave" for the player, a fissure could appear next to the player and be surrounded by miasma so scapping wouldnt be easy (everything is easy with BS helmet... you could ignore the miasma sadly). The moment they were released they were already totally countered by the BS staff...

- Brightshades: stationary mob that most of the time spawn alone or with a couple, is rare that you spot 3 close to each other. Is stationary and weak, really easy and they only require some skill when 3 spawn together. Still, people complained about them being too difficult (difficult? Just run if they will beat you...) with some even saying that they were impossible for solo... (no wonder why we are getting such powercreeps and nerfs on enemies like CK or rockjaw...) BS staff makes them even easier

- BS staff: this item is the reason i dont trust klei on delivering a proper rift content challenge. They developed a weapon that can deal up to 140 damage iirc at a really cheap price agaisnt hordes which precisely is one of the hardes things to fight in the game... this item ruined the ink trio, if being implemented in such poor way wasnt enough. Nobody complains because who doesnt want to kill staff from a safe distance without making any effort? And we are surprised why people ask for fw nerfs... 

And you know another things nobody complais about?

Mctusk ia being broken so basically they are a free kill if you make them walk far away, moonstone event being an afk idle event, shadow pieces having 373728 methods to be killed without receiving damage (even by simply using a road, no boat exploits needed). People complain about needing to make an effort agaisnt BQ or FW, needing to deal with lavaes if you dont use wall for DF (wow counting to 6 to dodge a 60 damage single target hit is really ok and not repetitive), boats requiring experience instead of using WASD, etc etc

[Guille6785]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

every thread Fuelweaver is criticized in who tells you stuff like "just do frame-perfect animation cancels to maximize DPS while exploiting his AI to lead him around the arena for a full 40 seconds while the wovens despawn and also time killing the last one perfectly, bro". 

nobody ever said any of this

[Auth]

I really like Fuelweaver. I think their fight is fine, definitely not in any state such as ancient guardian, whose fight wasn't reworked for difficulty's sake, it was because it was really, really boring. He was just a giant rook and could feel really unpredictable and just unfun. I really like how some of FW's set requires you to fight differently, without requiring you to bring in specific tools to do the job. The forcefield requiring you to leave him alone so you can take it down is really good, because it's not like you need a specific force-field-taking-down tool to do it, you just need your same old regular weapon you've been using, and depending on how you chose to expose them in the first place, whether by just being insane the whole time or bringing an amulet, the fight changes a little to reflect your decision, which can effect how you choose to go to it next time. 

I also really like, however, the addition of the brightshade staff. I mean, it's use in FW's fight is actually one of the few things that I feel validates the item's existence. It's an incredible tool that, if the player is able to use it, it feels deserved by that point, with it proving their skill in other areas rather than the main fight itself. More ways to tackle old problems that need a lot of work or skill is welcome, in my opinion. But the fight doesn't need to change for that to be made possible.

[lenship2]

imo the only change that should happen to make fuelweaver 'better' is decreasing the woven shadow healing to a more manageable number (maybe 100 or something); there's already so so many intuitive ways to kill it and it's my favorite boss

[Porkus]

4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Pretty simple question. I've seen a lot of people who support the idea of changing the Ancient Fuelweaver's fight significantly to make him more accessible for the playerbase.

He's the final boss he can stay as is and be hard, he should be hard making him easier would be bad for the game

[GreenBowers]

(Edited)
Nevermind for now. I do think some adjustments could be made to the boss to improve it, but overall I think its not bad.

[Theukon-dos]

5 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Explain to me why it is that literally nobody ever asks for Celestial Champion to be reworked or nerfed even though he's one of the most challenging bosses in the game. Why do people love Celestial Champion if, according to you and your fellow "git gud scrub" elitists, people just want Fuelweaver changed because he's too difficult? I really don't see how you people can make that logic work internally, so I'd love to hear an explanation. Is it just not something you've taken into account because you've already assumed you're right that people just want Fuelweaver to be easier?

Because Celestial Champion doesn't heal. That's pretty much it. The only thing I've ever seen people complain about with Fuelweaver is that his healing is to punishing if you don't pop all the woven shadows. You might be the only person who I've ever seen complain about Ancient fuelweaver for reasons other than his healing.

I've also just never seen Celestial Champion ranked amongst the hardest bosses? Bee Queen is considered harder, Crab King was considered harder, Fuelweaver is considered harder. Maybe also Toadstool. But the hardest part about that fight is staying awake for it.

5 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You're being incredibly disingenuous. It doesn't take managing three items, it practically requires the weather pane. You have to switch between your Lazy Explorer, the weather pane(s), your weapon, the nightmare amulet (and probably a magiluminescence), and constantly shove sanity food down your throat, and doing all of that as a solo player makes the fight drag on because you don't have very long to actually damage him. 

The only people defending Fuelweaver who actually have a point are the ones suggesting using Brightshade gear against him. Seemingly everyone else defending him is just saying some variation of "git gud" and are pretending that doesn't involve spending tens of hours practicing a fight they can't stand doing. It's almost as bad as that one guy in every thread Fuelweaver is criticized in who tells you stuff like "just do frame-perfect animation cancels to maximize DPS while exploiting his AI to lead him around the arena for a full 40 seconds while the wovens despawn and also time killing the last one perfectly, bro". 

Ok cool, that's what? 4 items then? And you're never going to need to deal with more than 2 of them at once. As long as you keep your inventory organized, juggling all the items you need isn't very hard.

 

Also, I've seen half-rotten scarecrows that are less of a strawman then that last sentence.

[Gashzer]

The fact that there is such an emotional debate on AFW is a loud and clear signal to Klei that AFW needs changed in some sort of way.

Be interesting to know how many of the console playerbase has unlocked the shadow affinity. Obviously pc players dont count cause they can cheat it.

If Klei checks and finds out only, lets say, 2% of console players have it unlocked then its pretty clear what needs to be done.

 

[Swiyss]

If they reduce afw hp or his healing, it would probably mark the death of the uncompromising aspect of the game. It would be a dissapointment.

[Mysterious box]

18 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The fact that there is such an emotional debate on AFW is a loud and clear signal to Klei that AFW needs changed in some sort of way.

If the game changed everytime there was a emotional debate dst would be the most updated game in history.

20 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If Klei checks and finds out only, lets say, 2% of console players have it unlocked then its pretty clear what needs to be done.

You know this would mean celestial champion would need reworked if not many people have unlocked the lunar affinity as well.