How come Wormwood is allowed to help other characters, but Winona after getting her catapaults locked isn't?

[GreenBowers]

Youre compairing a character with actually unique gameplay gimmicks and abilities outside of the **** he can craft, with someone whos skill tree is only about the things she can craft, and who has no unique gameplay gimmicks or abilities.

[Cruvimaster]

And Klei is only feeling consistent with recent work. Wormwood and Wigfrid show exactly that: making the character's strongest items unique to them. Anyone who has been following the work of developers has already realized this a long time ago. And catapults are Winona's strongest items.

[Blue Tangerine]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I would say the main issue is that this update to her hasn't really done much to divorce Winona from the concept of catapults being her main identity. Klei instead doubled down on this aspect by making most of her skills specifically tied to her catapults. I don't think it's a weird opinion to have that the perk that defines a character so heavily be restricted to that character.

I couldn't agree more, I noticed that Winona's skill tree doesn't include her own affinity to Celestial or Shadow, while the skill tree allows her catapults to deal more damage to Shadow or Celestial enemies, I would say that catapults are powerful against bosses like the Queen Bees, but against certain bosses, such as Armored Beargers and Crystal Deerclops, the catapults are far less useful than the player themselves, which means that if Winona doesn't have affinity for herself, she will be at a disadvantage against them. 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Blue Tangerine said:

I noticed that Winona's skill tree doesn't include her own affinity to Celestial or Shadow

This was intentional she doesn't align because of her relationship with both Wagstaff and Charlie which is why she can use both affinities it's meant to be a more unique take on a skill tree like Wormwood's.

3 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

while the skill tree allows her catapults to deal more damage to Shadow or Celestial enemies, I would say that catapults are powerful against bosses like the Queen Bees, but against certain bosses, such as Armored Beargers and Crystal Deerclops, the catapults are far less useful than the player themselves, which means that if Winona doesn't have affinity for herself, she will be at a disadvantage against them. 

Honestly the affinity bonus isn't "that" impactful it's mostly just a minor boost.

[Blue Tangerine]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

On a side note I don't think a good skill tree update should eliminate character weaknesses it's actively harmful to character variety. Building on character strengths is a good thing but I also feel skill trees should offer variety and new playstyles improving the day to day experience of the survivor.

Sorry,my bad.My perspective is a bit extreme,I agree with you. 

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This was intentional she doesn't align because of her relationship with both Wagstaff and Charlie which is why she can use both affinities it's meant to be a more unique take on a skill tree like Wormwood's.

Honestly the affinity bonus isn't "that" impactful it's mostly just a minor boost.

My point is that catapults don't always fit all situations, and when they don't work, the lack of affinity  makes Winona slightly more vulnerable than other characters.

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This was intentional she doesn't align because of her relationship with both Wagstaff and Charlie which is why she can use both affinities it's meant to be a more unique take on a skill tree like Wormwood's.

Honestly the affinity bonus isn't "that" impactful it's mostly just a minor boost.

Besides, Winona is both Charlie's sister and Wagstaff's assistant, so if she has both Shadow and Celestial powers, wow that would be super cool.

[Cruvimaster]

Bringing up Wormwood for comparison purposes assumes that people here don't know the character. The weakest part of his skill tree is creating plants. This post must have been a joke.

[Blue Tangerine]

6 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

Bringing up Wormwood for comparison purposes assumes that people here don't know the character. The weakest part of his skill tree is creating plants. This post must have been a joke.

I agree with the first part of your comment, but I think the discussion in this post is not meaningless, if Klei can see all of this.

[cybers2001]

2 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Wormwood is one of the most powerful characters in the game today and has never been about creating plants. He is excellent for crops and very good for combat. It has the unique effect of putting mobs to sleep just by eating one type of mushroom.

The best things about Wormwood are unique to him. Winona's best thing is the catapult.

I think that‘s the point. This is a satire post. A character can have both utility for other characters as well as a unique kit that makes them worth playing.

[Master_NiX]

I mean, technically Winona brings stuff that other characters can use, namely a lightsource that warms you up in winter with generator that can be fueled by everyone with Nitre, and lasts for ages due to the fact that "Greater Generator I, II and III" work even when you swap from Winona.

[Mysterious box]

24 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

I think that‘s the point. This is a satire post. A character can have both utility for other characters as well as a unique kit that makes them worth playing.

A infinite light and heat source that tracks you through base and a sewing kit boat patch combination isn't utility for the team?

[Hollow soul 3]

10 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Why not have a version of catapults that everyone can build that are weaker and aren't affected by Winona's skill tree?

Dudes going to make the houndius Shootius cry

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

A infinite light and heat source that tracks you through base and a sewing kit boat patch combination isn't utility for the team?

It’s the same amount of utility as personal fires that don’t spread, lighters that are just longer burning torches, and Bernie Dolls that can’t enlarge.

[Theukon-dos]

Because those catapults were really the only reason to play Winona, and the fact that you could get them for playing anyone made her a pretty bad pick for long-term worlds.

 

The new skill tree does aleviate this issue some what. Though I do wish it had a lot more gadgets that only Winona could use; @O_Atoba_Azul gave Winona a rework that I think does a much better job of making Winona a unique character than her skill tree does; even then, her catapults had a TON of value that you didn't actually need Winona for to utilize. Sure, there are other characters who can benefit the team as a "swap character". But basically none of them to the degree that Winona had. Wigfrid could bulk-craft her helmets then leave. But they's statistically identical to football helmets bar the higher durabiltiy. Or you could play Wormwood to craft a bunch of plantable objects. But like- They're plants. The only people who would actually benefit from that are Megabasers who use so many of them that they run out of plants in the world at large. Winona though? you could just set up a bunch of catapults around boss locations and get 90% of the reason to play her as any other character.

So yeah, I do think making her the only one able to use them is a more than appropriate change.

[Mysterious box]

50 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

It’s the same amount of utility as personal fires that don’t spread, lighters that are just longer burning torches, and Bernie Dolls that can’t enlarge.

I can agree with the tape comparison but a infinite light and heat source is on par with late game boss drops(which to be fair is exactly what the skill is) whereas bernie's team utility for example is a lesser bone helm still good but not on the same level.

[Master_NiX]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bernie Dolls that can’t enlarge

But that saved us multiple times..

[Szczuku]

8 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Isn't?

No, no, no; you see- a character is only useful if they are good at fighting. Listen, I don't care how many things a character can offer to their team - if they can't help with fighting raid bosses, the main objective of the game, then they are useless. Unless of course they completely break the resource gathering side quests. If a character can mass produce tons of resources in a few days then maybe they are half as useful as a character that kills bosses faster

[Valase]

you guys talk like if Wormwood made any use of those plants.

[somethin]

6 hours ago, Valase said:

you guys talk like if Wormwood made any use of those plants.

Hey! I use the reeds for poultices!

But yeah other than the reeds the other plant crafting are for megabasers basically lol

[cropo]

On 6/12/2024 at 2:39 AM, Anomen77 said:

Because when used by others Willow's lighter is a shitty torch and Wigfrid's helmets are just higher durability football helmets. Warly is a chef so his purpose is to cook food for others. It's true that this can also potentially dump him into the swap character group, but at least the foods are consumable, need bundling wraps to store and will still eventually run out.

Winona's catapaults could break, requiring you to pick her again to rebuild them. By your own logic Winona should be able to share her turrets, because it has a finite, albeit long-lasting lifetime without her. 

 

With Winona's skill tree, she does have unique interactions with the turrets that only she would be able to do, so other characters being able to use her turrets in a "worse" state is pretty faithful to how a lot of other characters powers work. 

There is also limits on ones suspension of disbelief, it is simply too ludicrous to expect me to not know how to push a button on a machine.  Winona is highly based on imagry of the industrial revolution, and one of the biggest things inventions and gizmos were made with is accessibility to the general public.  If Nikola Tesla made a system of electricity that only worked when he was around to operate it, he would never have become as famous as he is today. Her products are made for consumer-use. Most of the people typing here probably don't know how to build a computer, but you can press the power button, pull up the internet, and bring yourself to this forum to post. 

Hence, it is incredibly contrived to make her turrets inaccessible to other survivors unless she's there to babysit them.  People aren't asking to have her buffed speed, planar damage, coordinated air-strike turrets, but the basic consumer-version.

On 6/12/2024 at 2:39 AM, Anomen77 said:

This is not about consistency or game design is it? The problem is that you have all gotten used to them, find them very convenient and don't want them taken away. It would've had the same reaction if any of the perks mentioned above had not been tied to their characters from the start, but it's not how the game is meant to be.

This isn't about having Winona be a unique character, is it? The problem is that most of you hate the idea of people swapping characters in single-player worlds to circumvent the limitations of playing as a single character.

If you're playing in a multiplayer server, you're unlikely to even need the celestial portal since one of your friends or yourself can play as Winona, meaning that the only group that this change impacts is people who play in single-player worlds, and you're against that. This was never about having characters being unique and interesting, it is the discomfort of seeing other people utilizing a mechanic you don't think should exist.

[SilverSpoon]

16 hours ago, Valase said:

you guys talk like if Wormwood made any use of those plants.

Sapling Crafting is a god bless in a no sapling world.
Monkeytail Crafting allows you to mass produce monkeytails without the threat of long voyages and monkeying.
Leafy meat cooking is one of the best status recovery dishes.

[Blue Tangerine]

57 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Sapling Crafting is a god bless in a no sapling world.
Monkeytail Crafting allows you to mass produce monkeytails without the threat of long voyages and monkeying.
Leafy meat cooking is one of the best status recovery dishes.

I think his point is that Wormwood can't make up for his weaknesses by making saplings and monkeytails , he still can't regain health by eating food. That's an interesting idea, I've seen similar ideas on Baidu Tieba where some Chinese players (including me) make some self-parodies such as "Wormwood's favorite food is cooked banana, but he can't make banana bushes himself." However, like you said, Wormwood's skill tree gives him easy access to honey and papyri to make honey poultice and regain health,which also solves this problem to some extent.

[chaosmonkey]

On 6/12/2024 at 7:41 AM, Mysterious box said:

A infinite light and heat source that tracks you through base and a sewing kit boat patch combination isn't utility for the team?

If we didn't have winona, sewing kits and boat patches suffice. There's better ways to manage light/heat. There's nothing in the game comparable to catapults today.

Winona gives nothing to the team without sharing catapults in some capacity. Winona's new perks like being able to move them around, teleportation, etc etc are enough to incentivize actually playing her and making her unique while still adding value to the team at large even when she's not present.

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

If we didn't have winona, sewing kits and boat patches suffice. There's better ways to manage light/heat. There's nothing in the game comparable to catapults today.

Houndius shootius and brightshade bombs crying in the corner...

 

7 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

Winona gives nothing to the team without sharing catapults in some capacity. Winona's new perks like being able to move them around, teleportation, etc etc are enough to incentivize actually playing her and making her unique while still adding value to the team at large even when she's not present.

This logic is the equivalent of saying noone gives anything to the team. Walter and Wendy give nothing to the team because you can just manage your sanity. Maxwell gives nothing to the team because you can just get a krampus sack, bundling wrap or use the group teleportation method. Wickerbottom gives nothing to the team because you can just get the resources the normal way. It's baffling to say a infinite heat and light source is giving nothing to the team.

Actually on top of that tape let's you store 2 items worth of utility into 1 slot and stacks.

[chaosmonkey]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Houndius shootius and brightshade bombs crying in the corner...

Houndius is inferior to catapults in every way except not needing a power source. Crap damage and no aoe. Not sure how brightshade bombs are even comparable here? The other two are defense structures and bombs are equipment. Bombs also destroy statues.

Just now, Mysterious box said:

This logic is the equivalent of saying noone gives anything to the team. Walter and Wendy give nothing to the team because you can just manage your sanity. Maxwell gives nothing to the team because you can just get a krampus sack or use the group teleportation method. Wickerbottom gives nothing to the team because you can just get the resources the normal way. It's baffling to say a infinite heat and light source is giving nothing to the team.

This is a bit reductive. The utility other characters give to the team is usually because they do something unique or is otherwise the best by a big margin. Wormwood crushes growing a ton of food, wickerbottom resource farming is far far faster than any other character. Warly makes the best food. Tape on the other hand is like mildly better than a sewing kit, and the spot lights are pretty useless overall unless you're a base dweller (or winona and can take them with you).

And sure, Walter/Wendy don't really have any swap utility, but that's fine. Not every character needs to have swap utility. Winona adds something unique to the team if her catapults are shareable (even if without her skill tree buffs) and it's a shame to take that away as a lot of players enjoy that swap utility.

[cropo]

Can't you still do an evil-flower garden with Wendy, or was that removed with her refresh? I never tried it, but having a sanity-loss area is pretty useful.