Game balance and game's direction poll.

[Frosty_Mentos]

A little poll to conduct to see how's the weather in the DST community climate for game balance and if satisfied with current state of update releases and overall experience.

[Ardcrumb]

Wish they'd refine previous content to make it less of a slog, like crab King and fishing

[arubaro]

I like how there are multiple ways of playing the game, how a lot of the content is totally viable and how the game doesnt have progress in an unuspired way like 99% of sandbox games

I wish they revisit things like CK and the ammount of loot dropped by toad and dragonfly to incentive fighting them instead of just dupping

Also i think that plannar mechanics werent neccesary but are still way better than having swords that one shots bosses like in some overrated "sandbox" games

[zhangsheng]

The addition of the plane system and skill tree has led the game towards simplicity and imbalance, so I hope Klei should improve these two systems well.

[Cheggf]

Quote

1. Is the game balanced well?

2. Do you enjoy the current balance of the game?

The base game is balanced relatively well, but the character reworks and skill trees are not.

Quote

3. Do you think the current direction of the game that Klei been taking is right?

4. Since Klei chose to go slower with their update releases, how does that affect your experience?

The actual updates they release are pretty good, but most of the updates they release are character updates.

Quote

5. Is the gameplay of DST too easy? Or too hard? Or just fine?

The difficulty for the most part is fine, again excluding characters, but I think it could do with a few minor things to make it slightly harder. Not for the reason of making the game harder, but to make the game more fun. I've recently started playing the "Uncompromising Mode" mod, and there's quite a few things in it that don't really do too much to affect the difficulty but I think would be fun additions to the base game, such as certain enemies gaining secondary attacks that they randomly do, so you have to actually pay attention while fighting instead of just counting to a number then dodging. 

[Frosty_Mentos]

I feel like the game's lack of balance is kinda part of the fun. Varied characters to pick and swap between, weapons of many sorts and different properties while being relatively all useful and around similar damage scaling, bosses are too badly overbuffed in health that we can literally get choices to bombard them with catapults, explode or funny two mole and pile of burning turfs to cook things. Food abundance is always plenty either by farming in style or abusing less refined foods to make less refined but decent meals.

There's asymmetry in everything and let's you do whatever in so much content provided by this silly looking game. Over the years Klei only expanded on it all into DST and in a more refined broken game I love to enjoy to this day.

[arubaro]

Just now, Frosty_Mentos said:

I feel like the game's lack of balance is kinda part of the fun. Varied characters to pick and swap between, weapons of many sorts and different properties while being relatively all useful and around similar damage scaling, bosses are too badly overbuffed in health that we can literally get choices to bombard them with catapults, explode or funny two mole and pile of burning turfs to cook things. Food abundance is always plenty either by farming in style or abusing less refined foods to make less refined but decent meals.

There's asymmetry in everything and let's you do whatever in so much content provided by this silly looking game. Over the years Klei only expanded on it all into DST and in a more refined broken game I love to enjoy to this day.

I dont think characters should be balanced like in a moba, there should be strong, weak and easy difficult  characters, neither i think is good to have characters breaking certain aspects.

[BalkanCockroach]

Difficulty is fine in most aspects, it's just that some (progression) bosses that shouldn't have multiplayer level strength have multiplayer level strength. Don't tell me to git gud i can do the bosses. Still Fuelweaver rises my blood pressure and i fail 60 percent of the time while being prepared good. I use weather pains, pierogis, cactus, thule crowns, purple amulet, hambat or glass cutter and Lazy explorer. Not only i have to wait until winter to attempt to beat this boss but i also have to wait until spring unless i can do a strat that will take me weeks to learn and do properly. I play solo and i don't want to be held to the standards of multiplayer! Also for the nice forumites that suggest that i don't play if i don't enjoy the game, i wanna emphasize that i enjoy everything in this game but these types of bosses. I can understand why the people who enjoy the difficulty might disagree and i don'r wanna take anything from anyone. I just want an option. 

Second thing i find difficult is the amount of thing you have to juggle to be alive and engage in content. Inventory management, Hounds, nightmare phase cycle, durability, food, sanity, armor, temp, rain, light, forgetting what to bring and punching a hole in the drywall cause that item is atleast 100 lightyears away, accidently leading burger into base so it can destroy it, etc.

These get easier to remember and prevent the more you play so it's fine. And it never feels unfair so it's quality difficulty.

Also edit: i want to add to the rant in my first paragraph. The skill trees are seriously buffing the characters so my opinion is slowly shifting towards not wanting boss scaling. I just wanna know how this is balanced for multiplayer lol.

Edited February 21 by BalkanCockroach

[zhangsheng]

I personally believe that the strength of each character should have its own strengths, rather than overly pursuing combat effectiveness. Fun should come first. For example, skill tree balance, such as Woodie's three form skills should be balanced and combined with one, or Willow's skill CD should be deleted and restricted through other means, and so on.

These all need to be balanced.

[Masked Koopa]

I think that a lot of existing content is poorly balanced and could use tweaks. I understand that Klei seems to enjoy 'going big' with stuff like RWYS or the AG rework, but the problem with that sort of update is that there's more content that needs changes than could be realistically covered with that level of effort, and some content just straight up doesn't need that level of rework.

Ocean content, for example is already pretty polished looking, it just generally lacks the gameplay value it should have for the effort it requires (shameless plug:

)

[Mike23Ua]

Because of all the content that’s actually in the game, it’s very hard to properly say what is actually “too easy” & what is “too hard”

As much as I hate bosses with 27,500 hp- Wolfgang Does still exist, and I can pick him.. and just by picking him I effectively lowered that bosses total health by HALF its full amount. And if there’s two Wolfgang’s? Hell we just lowered that puppy to 25% of its total health.

Why? Because Wolfgang’s 2x Damage is nothing to scoff around at, but if you removed it.. you’d make Wolfgang no longer be well uhh Wolfgang?

And I think that’s a huge problem Klei has when it comes to developing content for the game..

HUGE PROBLEM.

They even straight up admitted that Planar Damage was added to the game as a means to Nerf Wolfgang, without well uhh directly Nerfing him.

And for the record- I don’t Hate Wolfgang as a character… because being that overpowered can be fun sometimes, I only hate that the REST of the game has to be balanced around him.

Also player knowledge has ALOT to do with it too… you guys here on these forums: No Offense but you Over-Analyze everything…

And what I mean by that is the other day I was trying to fight Antlion & Klaus as Willow and you guys here on these very forums- Told me I was playing Willow wrong/Ineffectively because I was using Bernie for these boss fights.

The thing is though, if you don’t come to these forums or look every little thing up about the game, then you as just an average player- will see this amazing skill tree system of perks that in any other game NOT NAMED DST would buff your character and make you better.

”Huh? Oh cool I can buff Bernie that little bear I learned how to summon when a frog licked me and I dropped him and he grew big to kick their butts!” 

Later that players going to find out that even though there’s a bunch of skill perks to buff Bernie’s effectiveness, using him during the Klaus or Antlion fights are only going to make the fights more difficult then they would’ve been without them.

So the TL:DR- The choices you pick in world settings, character choice, the items you craft & use, as well as your own existing knowledge about things- will determine how “easy/hard” things are.

Edited February 21 by Mike23Ua

[grm9]

23 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And what I mean by that is the other day I was trying to fight Antlion & Klaus as Willow and you guys here on these very forums- Told me I was playing Willow wrong/Ineffectively because I was using Bernie for these boss fights.

The thing is though, if you don’t come to these forums or look every little thing up about the game, then you as just an average player- will see this amazing skill tree system of perks that in any other game NOT NAMED DST would buff your character and make you better

dst players when thinking is beneficial

[The Starver]

22 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

as well as your own existing knowledge about things

That's really a big thing. When I knew nothing, and I started with SW, sure I died a lot, but I actually did better than after I started looking up every single thing on the wiki. I'm not good enough at the game to merit getting or doing some of the things I found out (still have this problem in a big way with Hamlet)... so I got into a lot of situations where I was way out of my depth.

[Jakepeng99]

These poll options are rigged.

 

I feel like the game is going in the wrong direction, but according to this poll if i say that, it is ruining my experience. The neutral option is too minor and suggests i want a minor change.

 

You shouldn't put your own opinion inside the poll options. For example, number 4 should just be: Great, it is ok, indifferent, bad, really bad.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I'm not sure how to answer these without context, as far as I know balance doesn't effect by ability to relax, so perhaps I don't care.

As far as direction, their current post game focus don't appeal to me, most pub players including myself aren't engaged by the components that lead to post game, there's just better fun elsewhere. I am concerned with how complacent they were with early items being largely reskins, Warbis is a step in the right direction at least, but the time investment alone makes it unreachable during the few hours I play with others.

Slower vs faster is mostly an illusion, the sum of four fourths equals the sum of eleven elevenths. Their output per day and their output per year aren't really changing, and I still suspect they only brought it up as a deflection. My only real concern is that a fourth is larger than an eleventh, the bigger fraction of content at once may mean we can't give as good feedback before they move on.

[Ryusuta]

I will go (and have gone) on record as saying that the addition of damage types like Planar will go down as being one of the biggest blunders the series has made with regard to core gameplay mechanics.

I don't think it is, was, or ever will be a good idea; either in this game or any of the other ones that have suffered power creep and tedium as a result of adding these types of damage resistances. It has NEVER been a good idea, and thus far DST has done nothing to change my mind on the subject.

Edited February 22 by Ryusuta

[Yuuko]

I think balance is not my main concern.  Having imbalance is okay provided there are interesting options.  The fun in a game like DST comes from the open ended aspect of it.  You're just let off a leash into the world to do with it as you will, for better or worse.

This is one thing that I'm 50/50 with on the new content.  I do like that the refreshes brought in new ways to be stronger other than 2x damage Wolfgang.  Wanda's age / damage system, Wendy + Abi pedal boost, Warly's lightning damage food - all great additions to the game!  The variety that brought to playing the combat part of the game actually made that part of the game fun.  Wanda's release was the first time I actually enjoyed fighting through bosses mechanics instead of shamelessly negating them because the way she was powerful was actually interesting to me compared to my experience with Wolfgang.

Its also really cool how they added Willow's lunar flame thrower, dark darts, and burning frenzy.  Burning Frenzy is a bit weak, but the act of using it - how you weave in lighting up a boss and casting the spell, adds just enough mechanics to enjoy doing it even when its not super beneficial.

Sadly they do all that cool stuff and then introduce Planar ...  which kinda undoes all of that...

OR it doesn't, and everyone just gets skill trees that say "all that stuff you had that Planar was introduced to nerf?  Yeah, here's that back"

OR it does b/c even though planar is already in the game Willow still gets an abysmally weak conditional damage boost that becomes absolutely worthless in a planar world lol.

Which leads to my main point - wtf planar is still in the game for?  BS gear specifically is extremely OP compared to anything else and it has nothing to do with planar.  Against planar mobs or not it has the highest damage values in the game in addition to the helmet protecting you from gasalts letting you leave on moonstorms, resources delivered to you en masse - seriously BS mats are the new hounds teeth, I've got hundreds just piling up wtf - and repair kits just bring a stack with you and never run out of weapon, armor, or tool...

I don't mind balance disparity when that balance disparity leads to choice.  Sadly planar is the other kind of imbalance - the one that just invalidates all of the fun things the game used to have.

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

And what I mean by that is the other day I was trying to fight Antlion & Klaus as Willow and you guys here on these very forums- Told me I was playing Willow wrong/Ineffectively because I was using Bernie for these boss fights.

The thing is though, if you don’t come to these forums or look every little thing up about the game, then you as just an average player- will see this amazing skill tree system of perks that in any other game NOT NAMED DST would buff your character and make you better.

THAT is not a skill tree issue.  Bernie is bad in those fights because he does not add any significant damage, but DOES add another target for the boss's AOE attacks.  Its actually something I'd hope a player could recognize by seeing the boss attacks targeting both the player and Bernie, and seeing how that might make the fight more difficult.

The skill points do make Bernie better, its just Bernie is not good for that fight - whether you put skills in him or not, he's still not good for that fight.

Forumers were trying to be helpful by sharing their info about the fight with you, not combative.

3 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

My only real concern is that a fourth is larger than an eleventh, the bigger fraction of content at once may mean we can't give as good feedback before they move on.

My perspective on this is like:

Refreshes - at some point they decided to start power creeping the characters.  From there on refreshes all came out with some power, but the first refreshes were left in the dust.

Skill Trees - Wolfgang was nerfed ahead of his skill tree, and still didn't have the power budget to make it anything interesting.  He has 5 "+ more planar" skills for his 15 points lol.  What is the skill tree going to look like when they get to Maxwell who wasn't nerfed ahead of it, but actually SUPER buffed???  Looking at Wig's skill tree, I can only imaging what Wicker is going to get...

And same can be said about the planar roll out - first patch was "here are portals and plants.  Please don't vomit after seeing these NONSTOP for 2 months we PROMISE it will all make sense eventually..."  Then eventually "here is a cave in lunar rain woo!!!" omffg 

My HOPE is that by taking larger bites 1) They get to see more of their additions next to each other while still in the dev stage where they can make changes and adjustments when it becomes clear something is just not good enough, and 2) WE get to see more of the additions next to each other at once rather than a single mob, or single new boss.  So little was being added each patch that it would be played out in a week and if it was low tier - never revisited again.  I see no reason to ever fight the shark boy, so I did it once.  Done.  What do I need to teleport boats for?

Edited February 22 by Yuuko

[Szczuku]

The game is not in a good place balance-wise, never was, really.

For people that have played for a long time, the game is easy. You know how to cheese MacTusk, which lets you easily pass winter, you know how to deal with frograins,smoldering, how to survive in a cave etc

For people that go in blind, this game is incredibly hard. And, back in the day, that was the desired ds experience, it is a survival game after all. However that had the undesired effect of new players eaither powering on through and sticking around, or abandoning the game. Nowadays Klei wants dst to be mainstream, hence additions like scrapbook, loading screen tips or skill trees.

Either way, however, the game is not balanced

[Cruvimaster]

It's quite complicated to define what balance would be in a game that focuses on the cooperative system. In fact, DST is extremely easy (and even tedious for the combat system) with 6 players.

The problem with discussions about balance is that each player wants to define this term from the point of view of their individual gameplay.

For many here the game is getting easier every day. For others it is very difficult. Difficult to please everyone.

What I find interesting about Klei's current changes is leaving new things as optional.

When there were character reworks, we all had to accept the new standards. In the skill trees, everything is optional. No one needs to use it if they want to maintain the standard experience.

The same reasoning with the new items that are released after defeating CC and AF, with Klei allowing events to be activated on day 1 of the game for those who don't want to fight those giants.

I see that the game manages to have peaks of 44 thousand players per day on an old product (8 years old). So I suppose Klei is getting it pretty right.

And it is obvious that there are always improvements to be made and that is why every year we have QOL programmed by the developers.

[arubaro]

2 hours ago, Szczuku said:

You know how to cheese MacTusk

People not spamming threads about fixing mctusk AI shows what is the mentality of the forum about having difficulty 

Better complain about hail not killing hound waves and critters

[grm9]

3 hours ago, Szczuku said:

cheese MacTusk

what's the intended way to kill him then? Ranged? You can't freeze him using his hounds and stunlock him either after the update that made most enemies not stunlockable 

[_zwb]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what's the intended way to kill him then?

Whatever it is, chasing it until it completely ignores your attacks is just stupid. They should never make ranged enemies that constantly run away from you in the first place.

[arubaro]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what's the intended way to kill him then? Ranged? You can't freeze him using his hounds and stunlock him either after the update that made most enemies not stunlockable 

Ice staff, baiting him with other enemy/chester, trapping him in a corner, making him sleep with pan flute/darts... i believe you can think about other good ways, werent you who said new bosses are bad because there is only one way to fight them? And now you defend mctusk ai...

Or do you really like and think thst is intended a mob with such loot being completly passive after you make him walk for few seconds??

8 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Whatever it is, chasing it until it completely ignores your attacks is just stupid. They should never make ranged enemies that constantly run away from you in the first place.

We have ways of dealing with ranged enemies... better than having everything being melee...

[marshyds]

I mostly just wish they'd add more to the ocean, sailing about 1 or 2 days to 1 destination is boring since there isin't much to see besides water.

[grm9]

25 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Ice staff, making him sleep with pan flute/darts..

that's ranged

25 minutes ago, arubaro said:

baiting him with other enemy/chester, trapping him in a corner

forgot about those, would still be annoying since you need to do it twice per mactusk and you can kill 20+ of them per winter though

Edited February 22 by grm9