Opinions on Skill trees

[Hi.]

I just wanted to make a spot on the forums where people can peacefully share their opinions on skill trees.

[Habakkuk]

Somethings are good others are bad, but it doesn't looks like something that is from DST. I fear that Klei is slowly transforming DST in a MMO RPG like game. DST is good because it is what it is, change the nature of the game could be catastrophic. What would make everyone happy is a DST new DLC, with a new world full of new stuff where we can play with our friends. It could be a spin-off like DLC that is not related with the main lore. Me and my friends want a new world full of new adventures like it was with Hamlet and SW but multiplayer. 

[GrapeVruit]

I think while they're fun to play around with, their inclusion is incredibly unnecessary IMO.

I do enjoy the new skills added, they give the surviors more depth and make them more enjoyable (aside from Wolfgang), but I feel Klei should've focused more on fleshing out the new arc or maybe even revisting older content updates.

Some of the skills added such as the hp regen and 3 hit combo for the moose, Wigfrid's battle canister, or extra damage from Wolfgang's throwable dumbbells, feel like they could've been added as apart of another update like they did for Wurt and Wortox.

I worry this is going to be the second coming of character refreshes, where the first few start off simple, gradually get more complex as they keep trying to 1-up themselves, and those older skill trees don't seem as appealing and are left in the dust. 

 

[Jakepeng99]

Klei should stop doing so many character updates and make inportant world updates a focus. Most people are asking for cave, ocean and sometimes moon quay updates.

[Kwaik]

The poll is missing the most important response

 

"i like the skill trees but I'd prefer content updates" 

There's no way most people don't like/love the skill trees. The skill trees are generally very good 

 

The people who whine the loudest tend to just want more content updates, which is a fair argument 

FWIW the ultimate test of skill trees is can it make the many characters that are never played/not fun, fun. 

 

So far most characters who got reworks are unquestionably more fun. 

 

If Warly Walter etc become fun, then it's a testament to how great a job the devs are doing 

[Antynomity]

They only exist because they created a reason for them to exist, not a good one but still a reason. I love planar, I hope I've made it clear so far!!! 

I genuinely thought they'd just do tweaks to characters after all reworks are done, but nope, character updates that eat up half of the year's updates all over again, if planar didn't exist half of the skills in most skill trees would need to be replaced by even more filler.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I see the game stagnating, just adding a few new things in far away places.

Adding changes with immediate impact when starting, and the changes have strategic differences in both obtaining and usage gets an A in my book.

Asking for hundreds of hours spent using each character is a stretch, but that can be cheated so I'm indifferent, but I feel some pity for console users that can't cheat it.

[Antynomity]

1 minute ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I see the game stagnating, just adding a few new things in far away places.

Adding changes with immediate impact when starting, and the changes have strategic differences in both obtaining and usage gets an A in my book.

Asking for hundreds of hours spent using each character is a stretch, but that can be cheated so I'm indifferent, but I feel some pity for console users that can't cheat it.

all it impacts is makes the game easier (more or less) early on, the early game is still as plain boring as ever

[Kevinnator]

If done right I think these can be nice for people to tweak a character to their playstyle and make for interesting choices. I really like Willow, Woodie and Wormwood's skill tree 'cus I've spent quite some time on both to decide what skills fit my playstyle. Not all options need to be viable for everyone, casual players are not gonna make a meta build with the skill trees. Heck, I use the Beefalo skills for Wigfrid and people consider those useless for her, I just like using Beefalo (I do miss the +10 planar damage skill, kinda allowed the beef to have its own version of the +25% damage boost, just that this extra damage pierces defence. It might still not compare to Wigfrid's damage but don't forget a Beefalo has no durability).

I do get the worry about later skill trees likely being better than old ones. But I'd argue Wilson's skill tree is still good for its purpose for beginners. The torch skills might not be too useful but for beginners it is, they're not gonna spend a lot of points on the alchemy tab because they don't know how useful those are gonna be (a beginner has no use for transmutating gems for instance, they're not gonna be heading to the ruins for a long time to even use the coloured gems).

[GenomeSquirrel]

5 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

all it impacts is makes the game easier (more or less) early on, the early game is still as plain boring as ever

I think that scouring the world for other materials with other players, and building a base is the most fun the game can get, playing grows more dull as increasing the quality of the base gets harder (diminishing returns). Perhaps I'll test farms I've never tried before, modify past attempts, but I'll grow bored with the entire world long before I consider going through the post game questline.

 

Combat in the game is shallow, there's pretty much one melee weapon and one ranged weapon, but a flamethrower attached to a character is close to another weapon. I'll admit I don't care to which degree it is easier or harder, I want unique and somewhat roughly equal.

 

With the shallow combat and long questline, I have a poor opinion of post game, other games streamline boss combat better, and with much deeper weapon variation.

[Yuuko]

Generally I think Klei is trying to do the right thing with the skill trees, and so far have done a decent job.  They aren't perfect.  My main concerns are

1) I'd really like to see at least 2 different viable builds for a skill tree to justify it being a tree rather than being a rework with the scrapped ideas tossed aside.

2) I'd like to see nerfs included with the addition of the tree to characters who are already quite strong.  Its the only way their skill trees can be meaningful without introducing even more power creep.

I think the biggest mistake of the character refreshes was starting with the "boring" ones and going on to make things better and more exciting while the first few were left in the dust.  I wish instead of skill trees they just visited the ones that needed some help with rebalancing.  But now that we're adding skill trees to all of them I think we're going to see this problem repeated.  I kinda wish they did one wholesale re-balance and skill tree introduction for all characters together, just for the sake of considering them all in the same space at once.

[Doomitself]

They still take way to long get 150 DAYS for one character is in no way.Certain skill tree points on wigfrid and wormwood feel a bit useless.Many people have suggested how to increase insight gain by killing bosses but the most fun way is to make it a quest/unlockable like how webber/WX78 has to complete a certain task to unlock part of their kit.For wigfrid it can be like kill a VARG kill a koalafant with each giving insight.Thats sort of a lot for the developers to add I know but just make It half the time it takes PLS.

[BezKa]

No one asked for them. Everything that could be done by skill trees (useless buffs) could have been done without breaking the game flow, adding an ugly UI and annoying pop up notifications.

They had no problem making small Wortox tweaks during a beta for something else. Without a whole AFK mechanic to unlock them.

The choosing sides thing could have been handled with proper in-game action, instead of defeating a boss once and pressing a button.

Instead of giving us more ways to play the game, they gave us different character buffs to play the same way, but overpowered in different sections. We could have gotten, I don't know, an island that would be pretty useful early game but you have to ignore the other stuff to rush boats and get there, and instead we got "goose flies to random spot" power.

Klei made a big mistake with skill trees, and now they have to either backpedal (they won't) or suffer through this and somehow pick up the shards that will be left of the balancing in this game. Wish them luck.

[Kwaik]

I think every character having a skill tree makes it easier to balance characters going forward. 

 

If you have underperforming and underplayed characters (once they're all done) this is the ultimate tool to change that. 

 

Instead of a fundamental refresh or anything they can just slip in and add talents in the future, even if they are one at a time. 

 

Skill trees might be a project, but it's probably best for the long term health of the game 

[Antynomity]

13 minutes ago, BezKa said:

No one asked for them. Everything that could be done by skill trees (useless buffs) could have been done without breaking the game flow, adding an ugly UI and annoying pop up notifications.

They had no problem making small Wortox tweaks during a beta for something else. Without a whole AFK mechanic to unlock them.

The choosing sides thing could have been handled with proper in-game action, instead of defeating a boss once and pressing a button.

Instead of giving us more ways to play the game, they gave us different character buffs to play the same way, but overpowered in different sections. We could have gotten, I don't know, an island that would be pretty useful early game but you have to ignore the other stuff to rush boats and get there, and instead we got "goose flies to random spot" power.

Klei made a big mistake with skill trees, and now they have to either backpedal (they won't) or suffer through this and somehow pick up the shards that will be left of the balancing in this game. Wish them luck.

I personally can't wait for Wormwood's and Wolfgang's skill tree refreshes in 2 years!

[_zwb]

Skill trees would be so much better if the designers actually play the game.

[arubaro]

I dont think they are a bad addition per se but they should have more branches and cooler perks than "more damage" or "more defense" so we can feel like choosing. Right now, even the better ones like woodies, they feel like an excuse to fix undercooked characters like woodie (the tree fixing goose and moose underpower level) while, characters that were okay like Wolfgang, dont get anything special or fun

With some characters you don't feel like personalising them like woodies being "forced" to choose moose path to make it less niche, Willow being forced to pick both fire and Bernie branches even if the player won't use one branch or wigfrid only having weapon perks (that some gets unused because are needed to reach new weapons) and beefalo perks so, if you won't tame a beefalo you have less choices. Also most afinity perks are bland and boring, only willow's and wormwood's add something interesting while wigfrid's and Wolfgang's are horrible, woodie's are very bland way of removing downsides 

I think that characters having extra paths with perks around non specific to their perks like how wigfrid got the beefalo path or Wilson got the torch one so you have more choices. BUT AS EXTRA PATH, not like they did with wigfrid's tree

 

Edit. The way they are unlocked and kept forever makes no sense, less if we consider you need to kill 2 bosses to unlock some of them

[Ohan]

I agree with Yuuko that skill trees need to have at least 2 “viable” builds to justify the entire system. 
 

Wormwood for example most definitely does not have this because both bottom branches are basically worthless or pick and swap if for some reason u want the plant crafts. The way i see it is the only choice u have is wether u want lightbugs or saladmanders lol.

The one build he has i really really like though. 

——

Willow on the other hand does have more than 1 viable build i think. I still dont know what to think of the two affinity spells but ive been having fun with all the rest.

U can go fully lighter, fully bernie or a nice mix of both. 

[D_Good_Fellow]

I think skill trees are a very clunky way of accomplishing what they are trying to do, or at least what I perceive them as trying to do.

Obviously a lot of characters needed refreshes from how much the game has changed over the years, but in my opinion the choice to do so through a progression-based skill tree system was a mistake. The logic isn't unsound: encourage players to explore/re-explore the various playable characters with progression-based skill trees, therefore naturally learning the new mechanics gradually. But this feels very forced. Historically, Don't Starve has prioritized content that organically encouraged player exploration. That's how Don't Starve was originally designed, for the games challenges and opportunities to organically encourage discovery. Even the character unlocking system, the part of DS Solo that's most like this skill tree system, specifically only rewarded players once they'd died and lost everything (or at least scrapped their world).

The skill trees aren't too intrusive so it's hard to get too upset about them, but it's also a bit hard to ignore how out of place they feel. DST is a pretty immersive game and up until now most features (cooking, inventory management, combat, equipment) have used UI that blends very naturally with the atmosphere. Suddenly going into a menu to distribute stat points is jarring in a way most DST content isn't. The fact that this is also the way players choose their alignment feels deeply out of place as well, especially when you consider how many cooler ways that could have naturally been incorporated into gameplay. 

Given that game-as-service model of DST, I suspect at least part of the motivation of a progression based system was that it encouraged longform play. A new boss can be beaten in a weekend then never revisited, playing 100+ days as every character spreads gameplay out over a longer period of time. Ultimately the longform play is more valuable to Klei, because it increases the likelihood of curio sales and generally works better for keeping the brand in public view. I believe this is also the reason the progression is account-based instead of world-based. If skill trees reset with every world, players would be less inclined to fully fill every one of them out.

Not to go all cynical, but I can't help but think about the different inventive ways character refreshes and choosing alignments could have been handled instead. If the motivation to include this content had come from the content itself (like Shipwrecked, Hamlet, or even Forge) rather than the motivation to manage consumer behavior, I feel like we could have gotten something a lot more fun.

tl;dr Skill trees aren't intrusive or even necessarily bad in their own right, but it makes me sad when I think about what we could have gotten instead.

[Mysterious box]

My biggest gripe with skill trees is that they're being used to fix problems that exist in some characters base kits a good example would be Woodie and his wereforms being bad it doesn't really make any sense to go hey after you play for some hours your wereforms will become useful rather than worse than your default state.

Willow somewhat did a better job with her being able to calm Bernie being added to her base kit and her other quality of life aspects being more so non essential to enjoying her character.

I guess another gripe is that skills aren't being designed with equal value leading to a correct way to build characters like I get it people can pick what they want even if it's a subpar choice but wouldn't you rather pick between high value skills so your skills trees feel more personalized rather than being unique by picking bad or lacking skills intentionally? I mean when you join a server most everyone goes for the same build on characters specifically because each character tends to have one "good" build which I feel defeats the purpose of trying to encourage creativity with the skill tree.

[Cheggf]

incredibly even

[JustAFlower]

The ideology of skill trees is fine, I like it, no very bad no very good. But what we got ?

 Flashbacks of beta branch forums turning into WW3

Uuuhhhh idk, that topic is very controversial for me. In my eyes (yes I have eyes), they are FINE, just some skills and the way to get them kinda makes me salty. Like the berry bushes path, the lighter of Willow path, the combat helmet of Wigfrid path, I'm like, damn.

 

 

[Paxtonnnn]

I have very mixed feelings on them. I really, REALLY wish they had just gone with small reworks for the characters who needed them (like Wortox got in Wickerbottom's rework), but I still appreciate that said characters are still getting the buffs they deserve. Woodie's skill tree is great and Willow's, despite its flaws (my biggest issues with it are still thematic ones), is really fun.

I just hate that skill trees mean every character, including ones were already balanced or overtuned, have to have a bunch of buffs stapled onto them. I hope they hold back as much as they can when they get to characters like Maxwell and Wanda.

[Hi.]

IMO skill trees are fine, if done right. I feel like skill trees should not drastically change a character, instead they should give them small buffs they needed. For example, Woodie's skill tree gave his Wereforms small buffs they needed. Willow's skill tree should have focused on giving her buffs to Bernie and other perks that could have made her a good character. But instead they gave willow spells and embers which felt more like a rework than a skill tree.

[Yuuko]

41 minutes ago, Hi. said:

IMO skill trees are fine, if done right. I feel like skill trees should not drastically change a character, instead they should give them small buffs they needed. For example, Woodie's skill tree gave his Wereforms small buffs they needed. Willow's skill tree should have focused on giving her buffs to Bernie and other perks that could have made her a good character. But instead they gave willow spells and embers which felt more like a rework than a skill tree.

To be fair - Willow didn't have much to give "small buffs" to.  She was Wilson with a torch that was usually good until it ran out, and same with Bernie.  Their uses were pretty niche.  They had to do something bigger for her.  Now with the new skills I'd say she's almost where Wendy is, and still pretty far behind Maxwell.