Planer Damage should be removed. A suggestion and a change.

[Arcwell]

25 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Ex. normal bearger gets killed easily by a handful of treeguards. Armored bearger needs 30+ to kill him.

*6

(I don't have any issues with either of your arguments, just would rather not be spreading misinformation)

[Spep]

I just find it funny considering planar damage only did 2 things, and that is nerf every pre rift weapon/armor into the ground for like 5 types of fight, and  low health minions.... neither of which you would want to use against those 5 fights anyway.

planar equipment is already good enough to be used heavily even if you ignore planar entirely. planar equipment is still usable in pre rift content....and usually better than pre rift gear, even though planar does nothing in pre rift content. and characters are ramping up to be nigh unchanged (wolfgang/woodie/wormwood perk tree lmao, if you think they aren't going to do the same thing to every other character, ATLEAST damage characters, you are wrong.)

couldn't bring myself to care about it that much though, only affects me for one brightshade wave and its gone.

[Jakepeng99]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:46 PM, maroonamanita said:

There is such an easy fix, just kill your baby. The baby is bad and biting the other babies.

Top ten quotes.

[Theukon-dos]

7 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

~~Snip~~

At this point, I'm half convinced that you're not actually reading anything we've been saying.

1. The damage gap between Wolfgang and Wilson does not need to be lower. And Planar damage also effects everyone who's already between those two anyways.

2. Planar damage in and of itself is not a stronger tier of gear. Litterally the entire point of planar damage is to is to not actually be stronger. admitedly you can get a bit of a damage boost by wearing the corrosponding helmets (And getting to max stacks in the reaper's case). But quite litterally all planar does is make it so that Post-rift weapons don't have to do more damage.

3. Again, planar damage doesn't make these bosses stronger. Less cheesable? Maybe, even if you do have to pull a completely wrong number out of your bum to try and prove that point. But if you have brightshade gear, then the horror fights are completely identical to how they'd be without planar and pre-rift gear.

4. As I said way back when, if all of those things are actually problems, then just Klei should just nerf them instead of trying to dance around the problem like an oiled pole.

 

Hopefully, this will be my last response to you. At this point, I've accepted that either

A. You're a troll, and have been absolutely gorging yourself from the constant bickering over the last week.

B. You chose Wormwood as your PFP becuase you have a lot in common. Namely a similar number of brain cells.

 

I would advise everyone else who's been arguing against you to follow suit.

[BalkanCockroach]

7 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Top ten quotes.

I really don't get the analogy is it supposed to make sense or is it just utter nonsense. 

[PetulantPansy]

8 hours ago, Arcwell said:

*6

 

(I don't have any issues with either of your arguments, just would rather not be spreading misinformation)

That's fair. it depends on how they're spawned in. Here's a video of him taking out 15 level 3 guards. It's not 30 but obviously the number is higher if they're not all level 3. 

 

 

Here's normal bearger. 2 level 3 guards. This isn't directed towards you but to pretend that the impact planar has is nominal, or doesn't have to do with the difference between the 2 beargers is just being delusional. 

 

 

 

[maroonamanita]

10 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Top ten quotes.

Thank you lol

[hyiltiz]

@Shosuko said it all:

Quote

 

Planar vs non-planar mob = same as always, nothing special.

Planar vs planar mob = same as always, nothing special.

Non-planar vs non-planar mob = same as always, nothing special

Non-planar vs planar mob = sudden massive nerfs to attack and defense out of nowhere.

 

 

• Planar mechanics by itself brings nothing new to the table BUT to significantly nerf all previous weapons, armors (and all the preparations for it such as tree guard and nmf farms etc.) and combat oriented characters modifiers (Wolfgang, Wigfrig, Wanda, Wendy, Wes etc.). Nerfing everything out of the window solely for the sake of it seems like an unnecessary "innovative" idea that was brought up by a recent "stream of new blood" into the organization...

The fix is easy:

• Please simply set all Planar multipliers to 0 (so effectively Planar never existed) and Physical multipliers from that awful nonlinear function to just 1.
• Keep all the rest of the perks of the new gear; everyone still enjoys the BS Helm for its perks, the Void Robe for its perks, Scythe for its perks, and the BS staff for its perks. Well, even if the perks WERE not there, just the fact that they are repairable is enough to warrant a spot in my inventory.

[Theukon-dos]

On 11/1/2023 at 10:08 AM, PetulantPansy said:

That's fair. it depends on how they're spawned in. Here's a video of him taking out 15 level 3 guards. It's not 30 but obviously the number is higher if they're not all level 3. 

 

 

Here's normal bearger. 2 level 3 guards. This isn't directed towards you but to pretend that the impact planar has is nominal, or doesn't have to do with the difference between the 2 beargers is just being delusional. 

 

 

 

Ok, I know I said my last reply would be my final one. But I have to say something here because it's an absolutely perfect example of how awful your arguments are.

Yes, armored bearger can kill 15 treeguards. A situation that will almost never happen because by day 80, up to 3 treeguards can spawn at a time, and if you're using Bearger for wood farming, you're cutting down so many trees that you'll likely end up with 6+ tree guards within a minute, maybe 2. Not to mention how easy it is to build up a battalion of tree guards if your goal is is to actively cheese Armored Bearger. You can just cut trees ahead of time and lead the spawned treeguards to an out of the way-ish spot for when bearger comes knocking.

 

But either way, despite your efforts. You definitely proved that Armored Bearger can be killed with Tree Guards.

 

Also I'm not sure how this example is supposed to prove that Planar mechanics make things harder for the player? Yes, obviously a mechanic designed to **** over anything that doesn't have it will be very strong against something that doesn't. But the planar gear isn't rare. The player should and will have planar gear of their own by the time any of these rift bosses come around. Again, that's not difficulty, that's just a gate.

I'd even argue that your video also demonstrates how that it's more about the improved AI than the planar itself. According to the wiki, Armored Bearger only deals 5 more damage to mobs than Squishy Bearger (200 vs mobs +175+30 vs. mobs). It's not the planar damage or resistance that let it tear through the treeguards. It's A.B's huge combo attacks that a single treeguard isn't able to hit stun it out of.

[SpookyXy]

I dont see the problem with planar mechanics, its basically just armour and armour piercing. I kinda feel like this whole thing is being overcomplicated and blown out of proportion when all it adds up to is "Specific enemies takes less damage from normal weapons".

[maroonamanita]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:45 AM, SpookyXy said:

I dont see the problem with planar mechanics, its basically just armour and armour piercing. I kinda feel like this whole thing is being overcomplicated and blown out of proportion when all it adds up to is "Specific enemies takes less damage from normal weapons".

That's like the core of the issue. It's a needless mechanic that doesn't even change anything besides old weapons' bad and new ones good in the most artificial way despite the fact the new weapons are still good.

[SpookyXy]

2 hours ago, maroonamanita said:

That's like the core of the issue. It's a needless mechanic that doesn't even change anything besides old weapons' bad and new ones good in the most artificial way despite the fact the new weapons are still good.

But the old weapons aren't bad. The rifts don't send out a server wide weakening wave that cuts the damage of every weapon in the game except planar ones in half. They can still do everything they did before and if you're using buffs like spicy volt goat jelly normal weapons are still prefered over planar ones for 90% of fights. The only difference is that now there is a subtype of enemies that can be beaten with a normal weapon but it's easier with a planar weapon. Like I said before it's not that much different from armour or type advantages/disadvantages in Pokemon. 

[arubaro]

people going against a good mechanic when they dont even understand why wolfgang got planar damage in his skill tree. Ofc they are against, its a new thing they dont get so better be mad at it

[joeysora]

4 hours ago, SpookyXy said:

But the old weapons aren't bad. The rifts don't send out a server wide weakening wave that cuts the damage of every weapon in the game except planar ones in half. They can still do everything they did before and if you're using buffs like spicy volt goat jelly normal weapons are still prefered over planar ones for 90% of fights. The only difference is that now there is a subtype of enemies that can be beaten with a normal weapon but it's easier with a planar weapon. Like I said before it's not that much different from armour or type advantages/disadvantages in Pokemon. 

Except they do send out a server wide fight that makes you use planer damage or it takes 3 times as long

[somethin]

14 minutes ago, joeysora said:

Except they do send out a server wide fight that makes you use planer damage or it takes 3 times as long

And said fight give you materials to make gear that shortens those fights and make life easier

[joeysora]

1 hour ago, somethin said:

And said fight give you materials to make gear that shortens those fights and make life easier

So now we are back to we have equipment that is required and invalidates the past 10 years of weapons and armor.   

[Arcwell]

12 minutes ago, joeysora said:

we have equipment that is required and invalidates the past 10 years of weapons and armor.   

Your old equipment still works perfectly fine and can even kill a brightshade in a single cycle with negative damage modifiers.

It is seriously not as big a damage gap as people are claiming it to be.

[joeysora]

24 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Your old equipment still works perfectly fine and can even kill a brightshade in a single cycle with negative damage modifiers.

It is seriously not as big a damage gap as people are claiming it to be.

 

I mean the dark sword is doing a little more then half damage and planer defense is beaten by landing lots of smaller hits vs bigger hits so celestial crown is super good, and I wont even say this is a bad video it shows a good way to get around the defense. Getting a bright shade sword is cool and easy now. Still zero reason to use any of the old equipment now as its just worse in every way besides maybe cost. Sucks that rather then just making old stuff weaker they are keeping it as strong as it ever was and just putting like a gate on the new bosses saying "no cheese" rather then maybe just fixing the stuff that is cheesey,

[Atkvin]

I think planar damage towards players is a really fun way to trip up difficulty - allowing enemies to bypass the safety net of armor which players are used to farming chests of and with the crazy armor numbers, barely feel hits with.

The conversation in this thread makes me wonder if planar damage would be better if it were simplified to only this facet of the mechanic - increasing challenge and stakes with only armor-piercing damage, alongside more difficult enemy attack patterns, and making planar armor start off with weaker planar defense for new progression built around it.

As mentioned plenty in the thread, planar defense for enemies seems to only lessen weapon variety, while not contributing as much impact in making challenges more difficult, only more tedious. There are many ways to make combat more difficult than making an enemy tanky and resistant to modifiers - see Brightshades and their potent, planar damage get-off-me spike attack if you don't fight them right

And I do feel sad that iconic weapons of choice, like the freshness-durability hambat and sanity fueled dark swords may be increasingly phased out against new challenges, when new weapons also have more attractive mechanics that could have made them stand alone without planar defense making them necessary.

[grm9]

2 hours ago, Atkvin said:

more difficult enemy attack patterns

see Brightshades and their potent, planar damage get-off-me spike attack if you don't fight them right

why do everyone keep saying that planar bosses are hard even though you can learn to kill them without taking damage in 5-10 mins in case of varg and bearger and maybe 10-20 mins in case of deerclops if you refuse to underpunish, brightshades' attack isn't hard to handle and both, brightshade and it's vine usually die before they even get the chance to start an attack with default damage multiplier, even FW or dfly without taking damage are harder than all planar bosses 

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

why do everyone keep saying that planar bosses are hard even though you can learn to kill them without taking damage in 5-10 mins in case of varg and bearger and maybe 10-20 mins in case of deerclops if you refuse to underpunish, brightshades' attack isn't hard to handle and both, brightshade and it's vine usually die before they even get the chance to start an attack with default damage multiplier, even FW or dfly without taking damage are harder than all planar bosses 

Difficulty is a hard thing to really nail down because honestly - the game is made to be beaten.  It always has been and always will be.  Same as the souls games, every single boss can be beaten so how "difficult" is it really?

Well the new planar mobs and bosses are certainly more engaging.  They require you to do more different things to defeat them, sometimes with hard punishes if you fail to play their game correctly.  In this way they are a type of "more difficult" for sure - the same way Klaus is more difficult.

They are not difficult in the random attacks and loludie sort of way, which is good b/c of DST went that way I'd already be out the door.  The new content is perfectly fair, more engaging, and visually spectacular.  The only problem I have is the planar part of it.  If things really needed a nerf then Klei should have just nerfed them.  Having such a shift homogenizes the end game way too much.  Literally everyone running around looking like 2-3 sprites instead of hte dozen+ characters in the game...  all hitting for similar damage...  why bother even having character select

The #1 appeal of DST to me is that it is an open landscape where you can take on the world in whatever way you want.  Planar really defies that because now we have officially stamped methods of doing things.  Might as well add in a tutorial next...

[grm9]

46 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

every single boss can be beaten so how "difficult" is it really?

It depends on how much time it takes average player to learn the boss' moveset to be able to kill it, still requires additional clarifications about what is the supposed way to fight a boss since measuring how much time it takes to learn to kill all bosses with gunpowder will be pointless, but e.g. best achievable gear when fighting the boss for the first time, meaning no bone armor or bone helm or voidcloth gear on FW and solo without minions with default damage multiplier without reviving, exploding things, structures that deal damage or cheese.

51 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

They are not difficult in the random attacks and loludie sort of way, which is good b/c of DST went that way I'd already be out the door.  The new content is perfectly fair, more engaging, and visually spectacular.

Since you've mentioned souls games yourself, you might want to look at e.g. recent champion gundyr NG+7 +0 no sprint/roll/block/parry/rings kills, that sort of gameplay could be ported even into DST if combat mechanics entirely change (e.g. weapons now get a sort of downward smash attack that would allow you to duck under specific attacks when aiming it correctly, like forge specials) and the lack of height coordinate could be compensated by manually allowing ducking in a specific part of the hit circle of the boss to simulate having actual hitboxes to allow to avoid the attack that way, although admittedly people probably wouldn't want that and it would take a lot of effort to entirely remake the combat system and it wouldn't work at all with multiple people just pushing each other out of the correct position to perform a duck so imo it'd be preferrable if they made more bosses like FW.

[Mike23Ua]

I’m not going to even bother reading this entire thread, I just find it absolutely hilarious & also quite sad that people immediately jump to calling someone else a troll when maybe just MAYBE people have various different playstyles & will enjoy things differently from one another.

YOU may enjoy a good old cheese covered pepperoni pizza, my Lactose intolerant butthole would quite literally Explode attempting to eat such a thing.

My point is that humans by nature: have different tastes & likes. & believe it or not.. this also applies to movies Tv shows & video games! *gasp* who knew right?!

I actually don’t Mind Planar Damage I enjoy the idea of having these newer threats invading the constant that can’t be defeated by our usual traditional methods, I enjoy needing to obtain the right equipment to deal with the threat that has how do I say this.. “adapted” to all our other tactics.

Klei added a world Gen toggle that lets you activate Wild Rifts on from Day 1 of a gaming world, HOWEVER Skill Trees also have a Lunar & Shadow branch with skills & content that is Locked behind needing to defeat the respective bosses.

In short: It allows people to play with Rift Content, but without letting them obtain the skills to fight against the rift content, so it gives people who turn this content on early an extra incentive to fight their way through the game and defeat the bosses to unlock the Lunar & Shadow Rift skill branches.

Sure I guess Planar Damage removes some of the cheese tactics players enjoyed using in the early & mid-game, but shouldn’t we actually WANT the game to force us to get end game gear to deal with end game content?

[Jakepeng99]

I reccomended minecraft to add planar damage to fix issues with pvp (Armour being too good, e.g diamond sword dealing 1 half heart of damage which ignores all armour and defence ) . Planar damage is a good solution to powercreeping.

[MondayNight]

I've only read OP, so apologies if anyone else covered what am about to write but I haven't gone over the following 7 pages of comments.

What is the point of Planar component? An interestingly novel way of going into a DST Hard Mode without actual "power creep" or else straight numerical buffing weapons/armors and mobs' attacks. In short, that's it.

Is a complex dmg formula, and dmg applied to character if appropriate armor isn't worn. End result is you can get almost insta-killed when facing distinct new foes - and from what I remember is almost exactly what certain "veteran" experienced advanced players demanded over time from a conceptualized Hard Mode in this game: damage that passes over "no matter what" if employing pre-Rift armor and makes the "skill" of timed dodging/kiting primordial to success (no more "face-tanking" and the cornucopia of early-game mistakes). For example of epic failure: get hit and frozen by Crystal DC's area long-rage attack, knock-back included and, if not having planar armor (of certain type & combination).. is reviving-or-world-reset time. Same if caught and "chewed" by Rasp (and not wearing Planar gear). Pretty much what one would expect from a Hard Mode, as stated. Take into consideration these new enemies we got till now are solely the 1st and I reckon the easiest ones. Characters had their "refurbishments", making them quite powerful; now is time to level the playing field, a turn in the opposite direction - to have proper Survival context in a late-game Hard Mode (and partially justifying previous buffs, global balance-wise). Once more: Planar component is an innovative way to do so without direct/linear numerical buffs-nerfs. I didn't like it either at first, on account of "weird novelty". I got used to it, and found the fun at the end. In a strange sadomasochistic way is entertaining to not feel almighty/powerful again. To know even pre-Rift top gear isn't that infallible anymore, and only throwing quantity of it doesn't solves your problems in a very comfy manner as it used to do. DST is Survival as much as Sandbox and some shaking up on that front is welcomed in my book if it doesn't invalidate previous elements completely - and it really doesn't: if so choosing, can go at the new threats solely with a basic Spear in hand and Log Suit over body - but you gotta kite perfectly/no mistakes allowed, as a proper Hard Mode should be. Else: insta-death.