[Feedback] Mutant Boss Theme

[Hornete]

The beta releases in literally three days, but I wanted to give some feedback on the music for the mutant bosses, perhaps on the small chance we could see changes post-release. 

Before I continue, here's the track used for the boss fights! You're likely already familiar with it being the music of the main menu this update and it was implemented as the music for the fights themselves.

Moving forward, I have a few criticisms on the track and how it's implemented. I'm not a composer, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

It feels thematically inappropriate

It's a very uppity track considering the context in which these play. As a friend put it, it "Doesn't feel like Moon Zombie corpse music". For me it detracts from the fact that these bosses's insides and body are being puppeteered by the rift gestalts with the current music. Maybe that's the idea behind it! Silly music for gestalts playing as puppeteers, but it still strikes me odd and unfitting.

It does give off similarity with past tracks and motifs relating to Wagstaff and gives off his vibes, but the proper fights feel detached from him til he of course comes in afterwards, so I'm unsure.

I really like how Woodie's Wereforms were handled during his rework, the original track but with twists for each of the new forms. I think I would really love to see something like that for the Mutants, their original themes with twists and distortions. I absolutely LOVE what you guys did with the static sounds on their revive, I seriously get up and close to their reviving corpses just to hear that sound, it's absolutely gorgeous and hearing it integrated into the tracks is something that would be really cool!

   

I don't expect to see entirely new tracks, again beta releases in literally three days haha. But I just wanted to put it out there.

VERY repetitive

It is a very repetitive track. The track is currently only 52 seconds, and even within those 52 seconds there is a lot of repetitions. Honestly, this is an issue I have with a lot of DST's tracks in the modern day, one minute tracks with lack of variety (I'm looking at YOU, RWYS farming music with no seasonal or caves variants :point:)

But back to the boss theme, the boss fights can go for a few minutes for me personally (and because of a quirk I'll go into in the next point, even outside of the fights) and it gets really repetitive on the ol' ears. So much so that for the first time in a long while I feel I have to turn off the music just for these fights. Not a big deal and I totally get if any of you think I may be exaggerating this point.

Even if the theming of the track doesn't change I would be really happy to just hear it be less repetitive throughout. (That part at 0:16-0:18 sounds really annoying to listen in succession, ha)

Plays out of direct combat

This one's less related to the design and composition of the actual track and moreso the implementation of track in-game.

Currently the bosses follow what I'll call "Raid Boss music logic" where you simply have to be near the mob for the track to play, instead of having to engage directly with the boss to activate the music like our lovely RoG's EFS's(Epic Fight Songs)

I think it makes sense for most raid bosses as most of them are activations that have to be done directly by the player, and despawn if left alone. Deerclops, Bearger, and Vargs are creatures that interact more with their environment though and I think shouldn't be treated this way. I was walking by a mutated varg when the music suddenly started playing.

It's not the worse issue in the world and is the least offending of the 3 criticisms I have, but I would appreciate if the music only played if you directly engaged with the mutated laddies/lassies.

 

Cheers! Excited for the beta release.

 

Edited October 16 by Hornete

[finn from human]

19 minutes ago, Hornete said:

It's a very uppity track considering the context in which these play. As a friend put it, it "Doesn't feel like Moon Zombie corpse music". For me it detracts from the fact that these bosses's insides and body are being puppeteered by the rift gestalts with the current music. Maybe that's the idea behind it! Silly music for gestalts playing as puppeteers, but it still strikes me odd and unfitting.

Personally, I have trouble seeing how the former is more interesting! Tonally dissonant silly music while Gestalts play with corpses like puppeteers is, in my opinion, way more interesting of a vibe than focusing entirely on the zombie corpse aspect in the music, and I would say makes them a lot scarier! The Gestalts aren't even taking this fight seriously, it's like they're playing a game. Fits the eldritch vibes of the moon in a way I actually find really interesting too: they operate on such a higher level than us, that puppeting around a real actual corpse of a dead animal isn't even that serious of a thing, it's just silly fun for them.

[Hornete]

11 minutes ago, finn from human said:

Personally, I have trouble seeing how the former is more interesting! Tonally dissonant silly music while Gestalts play with corpses like puppeteers is, in my opinion, way more interesting of a vibe than focusing entirely on the zombie corpse aspect in the music, and I would say makes them a lot scarier! The Gestalts aren't even taking this fight seriously, it's like they're playing a game. Fits the eldritch vibes of the moon in a way I actually find really interesting too: they operate on such a higher level than us, that puppeting around a real actual corpse of a dead animal isn't even that serious of a thing, it's just silly fun for them.

That's a very good reply! Again, I think just for me it just doesn't work, but I see all the objective theming there with it all being a big game, continuing on the chess themes from this games conception. I appreciate your expansion on that theme.

Now I have to wonder if itd be interesting to have the track include a sort of.. switching between the "perspectives" of the gestalts and the survivors. Silly music sections to represent the Gestalts game and how they see it, and more tonally fitting music in other sections to represent the Survivors seeing a corpse be played around and how they feel about it. (Is this music design? Am I doing it right? Teehee )

[lakhnish]

1 hour ago, Hornete said:

It is a very repetitive track. The track is currently only 52 seconds, and even within those 52 seconds there is a lot of repetitions in those 52 seconds.

This is a big one for me.

There are some tracks in the game that I can listen to for long periods of time and I have no issues with them.

This track is not one of them because of these fast paced nature of the foreground music where in less than 1 second, a new note plays rather than the more traditional music that are more drawn out.

It's mentally driving me nuts :'(

Edited October 16 by lakhnish
the word foreground

[Evelo]

Despite RWYS being my favorite update. It has caused me to turn off the in game music.

Though Wanda and Moonquay Theme slap and I love those. I love when Klei gets very creative with the instruments but the length of the track does need to be extended I feel. Just think of the Hornet boss fight from Hollow Knight (yes I chose that one specifically Hornete ) It has a consistent theme but is a 2:46 track with the only loop being near the start and end so it can be looped for in game purposes.

Looking through the original Don't Starve soundtrack you have lengthy non-repeating themes like Work to be Done (Daytime Autumn work soundtrack) that is 1:44. It follows a theme and has a repeat at the start and end for seamless loop. Their longest track is 3:00, Creepy Forest. I don't think I have ever heard it in game honestly. Maybe in the menus but not while in the constant.

I love Klei and don't want to besmirch the work of Vince de Vera and Jason Garner and I am sure others on future tracks. Just bringing awareness.

Edit: I didn't mention but, yes I am a mega Christopher Larkin simp. If you haven't given TOHU a listen. Do yourself a favor and look it up. The 3 time tracks played together is just. omg.

Edited October 17 by Evelo

[Hornete]

24 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I don't think I have ever heard it in game honestly. Maybe in the menus but not while in the constant.

It was added to be played while Pearl is in her home! One of my favourite callbacks to this track, felt so nice to hear it in-game.

It is also now a proper record that can be played in the phonograph.

[-Variant]

5 hours ago, Hornete said:

"Doesn't feel like Moon Zombie corpse music"

I'll take my cue.
I'm on this side of things, there are genuine criticisms I have with the music, such as the very short loop, but as others have went over that, I'll move onto something else.

I personally don't vibe much with the choice of music as it doesn't feel very horrifying. It's a very uppity jaunty theme, and whilst it might fight for something more upbeat, I don't feel like the actual fights with the Mutants themselves fit that theme.
If their animations were more playful and puppet-y, then maybe.

The theming seems to be horror, as the situation is... pretty horrifying. Also the namesake being 'Host of Horrors'!
The sounds, bone and flesh crunching, the literal static and groans, oooohhhh man what a freight! I feel taking the opportunity to introduce some real horror-like music would make sense, we've got a lot of very uppity cheerful music intense music as is, I think it'd be a fitting direction this time around.

5 hours ago, Hornete said:

I really like how Woodie's Wereforms were handled during his rework

I think I said something similar a bit back, I'm all for this.

I think this'd be a super wonderful way of tackling it, Woodie's got the one general theme with the minor variations for each of his forms, I'd LOVE something akin to this for the Mutant fights.
I can see this not working if there ends up being more mutant fights later down the line. I'd settle for one major encompassing theme, honestly.

5 hours ago, Hornete said:

VERY repetitive

Personal gripe, this alongside it being the menu theme directly imported to be fight music takes away from the theme itself.
This is a personal gripe that obviously doesn't factor in much outside of my own views but I don't honestly like that they're the same theme. Would've much preferred they'd get their own personal theme. Is it odd to say it sounds more like a Wagstaff theme? (This reminds me of the almost impossible to hear Waggy theme during Moon storms, ahaha.)

[fabin]

i think that if it had minor variations like woodie's tracks, it'd be way better. just a small rhythm change or instrumentation can change the whole feel of the song. personally, i think the current theme fits with the possesed varg fight, since it's kinda fast paced and chaotic

since i like fiddling around with music, i created a concept for a variation of the track for bearger, for fun. i feel like just a small instrument change would suffice. here, take a listen:

 

 

[Cassielu]

It's a little mean, but I really think season EFS is better than it is, and the music now is slightly comical, not like battle music with giants.

[ZeRoboButler]

52 minutes ago, fabin said:

i think that if it had minor variations like woodie's tracks, it'd be way better. just a small rhythm change or instrumentation can change the whole feel of the song. personally, i think the current theme fits with the possesed varg fight, since it's kinda fast paced and chaotic

since i like fiddling around with music, i created a concept for a variation of the track for bearger, for fun. i feel like just a small instrument change would suffice. here, take a listen:

 

 

Im not too familiar with making music but I like the direction you took with it!

What kind of software did you use to put that together?

[Baark0]

Wow, that static sound is such a nice touch. I do agree that the music doesn't really fit for fighting reanimated corpses, but the song itself isn't bad. I could see it working great with a trickster or mischievous creature, maybe a theme for chasing around a gestalt. If Klei decided to redo the song, I think they should put more emphasis on the horror side of things, things like making the static sound more prominent would be great for setting the theme and letting you know that something is very wrong with what you're fighting.

[Reiko24]

The song itself is good and I appreciate the effort of people that created it, but I don't think it fits for those bosses like you said. It would be better if they got a different, more horror themed music and the current one could be reused somewhere else where it fits.

[Axoshlotl]

theres too many little sounds idk what to call it but this is like the complete opposite of every other boss theme where some of the instruments are deep and drawn out to make it feel somewhat foreboding, this song has like none of that, for a regular fight theme i think it could work but not for a boss

[Szczuku]

In Hollow Knight, there is a battle track that plays in the first area.

Much later on you encounter a boss, who's a little messed up and their theme is that track, but the pitch (I think that's the word) is all over the place

A (what I, a non-music-making person, think is) simple change to push out maybe before the beta ends would be to just give each boss a theme like that. Taking the tried-and-true EFS of winter, autumn and autumn battle songs and messing their pitches up to create battle themes for new bosses that get the "this shouldn't be happening"-point across

 

[BalkanCockroach]

We need a music update as a whole.

 

[Sanitar]

30 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

We need a music update as a whole.

 

And fix farm music. 

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

Much later on you encounter a boss, who's a little messed up and their theme is that track, but the pitch (I think that's the word) is all over the place

A devilishly interesting take... I'm on board with something in this field. 

[goblinball]

I personally really like the boss theme, the very fast paced definitely gives an “oh sh*t!” tone that I think fits perfectly; or at least that’s the kind of reaction I’d have if I encountered one of these blind and unprepared. It definitely comes off as a bit playful in some parts (especially with the use of the triangle I think?), but I think it still manages to convey sinister undertones

Edited October 17 by goblinball

[Jakepeng99]

18 hours ago, Hornete said:

The beta releases in literally three days, but I wanted to give some feedback on the music for the mutant bosses, perhaps on the small chance we could see changes post-release. 

Before I continue, here's the track used for the boss fights! You're likely already familiar with it being the music of the main menu this update and it was implemented as the music for the fights themselves.

 

Moving forward, I have a few criticisms on the track and how it's implemented. I'm not a composer, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

It feels thematically inappropriate

It's a very uppity track considering the context in which these play. As a friend put it, it "Doesn't feel like Moon Zombie corpse music". For me it detracts from the fact that these bosses's insides and body are being puppeteered by the rift gestalts with the current music. Maybe that's the idea behind it! Silly music for gestalts playing as puppeteers, but it still strikes me odd and unfitting.

It does give off similarity with past tracks and motifs relating to Wagstaff and gives off his vibes, but the proper fights feel detached from him til he of course comes in afterwards, so I'm unsure.

I really like how Woodie's Wereforms were handled during his rework, the original track but with twists for each of the new forms. I think I would really love to see something like that for the Mutants, their original themes with twists and distortions. I absolutely LOVE what you guys did with the static sounds on their revive, I seriously get up and close to their reviving corpses just to hear that sound, it's absolutely gorgeous and hearing it integrated into the tracks is something that would be really cool!

 

   

I don't expect to see entirely new tracks, again beta releases in literally three days haha. But I just wanted to put it out there.

VERY repetitive

It is a very repetitive track. The track is currently only 52 seconds, and even within those 52 seconds there is a lot of repetitions. Honestly, this is an issue I have with a lot of DST's tracks in the modern day, one minute tracks with lack of variety (I'm looking at YOU, RWYS farming music with no seasonal or caves variants :point:)

But back to the boss theme, the boss fights can go for a few minutes for me personally (and because of a quirk I'll go into in the next point, even outside of the fights) and it gets really repetitive on the ol' ears. So much so that for the first time in a long while I feel I have to turn off the music just for these fights. Not a big deal and I totally get if any of you think I may be exaggerating this point.

Even if the theming of the track doesn't change I would be really happy to just hear it be less repetitive throughout. (That part at 0:16-0:18 sounds really annoying to listen in succession, ha)

Plays out of direct combat

This one's less related to the design and composition of the actual track and moreso the implementation of track in-game.

Currently the bosses follow what I'll call "Raid Boss music logic" where you simply have to be near the mob for the track to play, instead of having to engage directly with the boss to activate the music like our lovely RoG's EFS's(Epic Fight Songs)

I think it makes sense for most raid bosses as most of them are activations that have to be done directly by the player, and despawn if left alone. Deerclops, Bearger, and Vargs are creatures that interact more with their environment though and I think shouldn't be treated this way. I was walking by a mutated varg when the music suddenly started playing.

It's not the worse issue in the world and is the least offending of the 3 criticisms I have, but I would appreciate if the music only played if you directly engaged with the mutated laddies/lassies.

 

Cheers! Excited for the beta release.

 

The music is already nice. I like the harpsichord, it sounds like nerval strings being plucked.

3 hours ago, Szczuku said:

In Hollow Knight, there is a battle track that plays in the first area.

Much later on you encounter a boss, who's a little messed up and their theme is that track, but the pitch (I think that's the word) is all over the place

A (what I, a non-music-making person, think is) simple change to push out maybe before the beta ends would be to just give each boss a theme like that. Taking the tried-and-true EFS of winter, autumn and autumn battle songs and messing their pitches up to create battle themes for new bosses that get the "this shouldn't be happening"-point across

 

Might be a type of lfo. Don't mark my words, possibly a tremelo/Phaser combined with something else. (Both create a similar wavy sound)

 

[BalkanCockroach]

3 hours ago, Sanitar said:

And fix farm music. 

I like farm music

[fabin]

14 hours ago, ZeRoboButler said:

Im not too familiar with making music but I like the direction you took with it!

What kind of software did you use to put that together?

thanks :)

i use fl studio and it's soundfont player with the sgm soundfont plugged in

[Hornete]

Wow wow WOW! Do I love the music section from 0:45-0:57 in the new short! 

Spoiler

 

It's a more orchestral remix of the current boss music, and admittedly I do love it much more! It's just a small section specifically for the trailer so I imagine there is no full "orchestral" version of this, but I do currently prefer it over the one we have in-game. Just wanted to mention that.