Planar Mechanics Are Horrible.

[Antynomity]

Not only does it not achieve it's goal of avoiding power creep, it also only further convolutes the game without any good reason.

Not to mention it's already being solved by skill nodes in some character's skill trees, like, wtf!? was the point? I don't get it.

[Maxil20]

I personally feel planar damage to the player actually works out pretty well, and IMO accomplishes the goal of trying to stop powercreep very well.

Armor had an issue of being very good, almost too much so, for most combat experinces (log suits/football helmets give 80%, the thule gear gives 90%, and the marble/night armor suits gave 95%). It was to the point where downsides like Wanda’s/Maxwell’s low HP for high reward almost completely irrelevant if you just wore night armor. It also meant that for bosses to pose a challenge, they needed to ramp up their damage to compensate. The celestial champion is the most noteworthy example, having multiple powerful multi-hit moves that hit for over 100+, per hit.

If they were to continue the trend of making stronger armor, they would already need to ramp up enemy/boss damage even higher, all while the newer armor’s would have more durability and more protection to compensate, which would mean enemies from before the rift would absolutely be trivialized even more by the new content. Instead, they gave enemies planar damage, and gave the new armor planar defense. While the armor is not quite as good for protection as thule gear or the like, it has a number of benefits most armors lack (EX: void robe’s immunity to sanity auras or the brightshade helm’s goggle functionality), and the fact these armors are repairable, making them far more reliable then most other armor sets.

 

My issue with the planar mechanics mainly stem from planar defense with mobs. I personally feel it downscales every weapon before the rift far too fast. Weapons like the dark sword lose over a third of their potential damage output on a 1X damage character, and only get worse the higher the damage gets. I personally feel there should be a damage threshold where damage is not reduced initally until ~50-60 damage, and then is soft capped with the formula for the excess damage above 50. Doing so would still retain the weapons before the rifts starts being alright options, while still encouraging you to upgrade to the post rift options without preventing them from being outclassed by characters with extreme damage multipliers.

[Antynomity]

2 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

snip

I can't really disagree tbh, the armour will still run into an issue where we need more and more stronger absorption of damage but at least that'd delay it, while the mob planar defense only punishes you for using stronger and stronger damaging weapons from pre-rift.

[Cheggf]

Agreed, not a big fan of planar damage. Especially since Wolfgang already got a skill tree thing that's basically undoing it all anyways. There's a lot of weapon variety before you need to think about planar damage, but once the enemies have planar resistances you're at a big handicap if you use any of them.

19 hours ago, Cheggf said:

If anything, planar damage is doing the opposite. Before planar damage you have

• Dark Sword for high damage, but it drains your sanity.
• Ham Bat for infinite durability, but it only lasts a few days then must be remade.
• Thulecite Club for high durability, the best damage against a less mobile dry foe, and a minor speed boost.
• Shield of Terror for infinite durability and armor, but you need to be careful with it.
• Tentacle Spike for a very cheap weapon.
• Glass Cutter for a Dark Sword that has tons of durability against shadows and doesn't drain your sanity, but it's weird to make.
• Morning Star for the best unassisted damage against a wet target, time-based durability, and a light source.
• More suboptimal weapons, and "weapons" that are more tools.

After planar damage you have

• Dark Sword, but white.

45 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Armor had an issue of being very good, almost too much so, for most combat experinces (log suits/football helmets give 80%, the thule gear gives 90%, and the marble/night armor suits gave 95%). It was to the point where downsides like Wanda’s/Maxwell’s low HP for high reward almost completely irrelevant if you just wore night armor. It also meant that for bosses to pose a challenge, they needed to ramp up their damage to compensate. The celestial champion is the most noteworthy example, having multiple powerful multi-hit moves that hit for over 100+, per hit.

Agree in theory, but with Wolfgang having a skill tree that negates the enemy's planar defenses I would not at all be surprised if Maxwell & Wanda get a skill tree that negates the enemy's planar offenses. Just as I wouldn't be surprised to see if we get planar armor with 90%, or all the way back up to 95% so nothing changed but the sprites. 

[Cassielu]

To be honest I don't really care about dark sword or ham bat, the difference between them is very small. But the more strategic and truly different things like follower, ice, sleep and traps that are really gone in the Post-Rift battle are real huge losses. : (

[Antynomity]

9 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

To be honest I don't really care about dark sword or ham bat, the difference between them is very small. But the more strategic and truly different things like follower, ice, sleep and traps that are really gone in the Post-Rift battle are real huge losses. : (

I also think it's a loss that most of the content in DST that gets added is combat related.

[Theukon-dos]

Another big problem with Planar mechanics is that they only address power creep when it comes to combat. Which frankly, I'd argue is probably the least power-crept aspect of the game by far. 

 

Planar mechanics don't effect how easy it is to heal. How easy it is to keep yourself fed. How strong harvesting characters are. Planar Mechanics only effect combat. And the prefered gear for combat really hasn't changed in the last decade. 

 

If anything, I'd say the only part of DST that's been noticeably power crept has been the characters... which the devs are actively doing because reasons I guess. 

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

If anything, I'd say the only part of DST that's been noticeably power crept has been the characters... which the devs are actively doing because reasons I guess. 

honestly I think most characters are fine from a power creep standpoint but then maxwell exists who is just a direct upgrade of like 5 characters.

[Theukon-dos]

4 minutes ago, Dextops said:

honestly I think most characters are fine from a power creep standpoint but then maxwell exists who is just a direct upgrade of like 5 characters.

Most characters did end up stronger than they where before their refreshes, and also Wanda exists. But yeah, Maxwell definitely got way to much. 

 

And I'd say this still proves my point. Planar mechanics are supposed to address power creep. But what power creep is there? Spicy Volt-Goat chaud froid?  is that it?

4 minutes ago, Dextops said:

honestly I think most characters are fine from a power creep standpoint but then maxwell exists who is just a direct upgrade of like 5 characters.

Most characters did end up stronger than they where before their refreshes, and also Wanda exists. But yeah, Maxwell definitely got way to much. 

 

And I'd say this still proves my point. Planar mechanics are supposed to address power creep. But what power creep is there? Spicy Volt-Goat chaud froid?  is that it?

[Cheggf]

24 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

But what power creep is there? Spicy Volt-Goat chaud froid?  is that it?

That is the only thing that YouTubers & the scud users/pub players/redditors that watch them know/complain about, so it makes sense that Klei would only care about that and nothing else. But it also doesn't make sense because those people aren't even going to get to planar mechanics in the first place.

[Dextops]

47 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Most characters did end up stronger than they where before their refreshes, and also Wanda exists. But yeah, Maxwell definitely got way to much. 

I think them getting stronger was definitely needed because some characters desperately needed new tools so in my opinion this power creep wasn’t bad but maxwell still exists. Imma be honest I don’t care too much for very intense character balance I find more importance in how fun a character is but when a single character can invalidate a lot of others there’s a problem. 

47 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Most characters did end up stronger than they where before their refreshes, and also Wanda exists. But yeah, Maxwell definitely got way to much. 

I think them getting stronger was definitely needed because some characters desperately needed new tools so in my opinion this power creep wasn’t bad but maxwell still exists. Imma be honest I don’t care too much for very intense character balance I find more importance in how fun a character is but when a single character can invalidate a lot of others there’s a problem. 

[goblinball]

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

There's a lot of weapon variety before you need to think about planar damage, but once the enemies have planar resistances you're at a big handicap if you use any of them.

This is definitely an issue now, but hopefully it gets resolved in the future as more planar weapons are added (I’m not saying this WILL happen, just that I hope it will)

i do think discouraging use of older weapons through planar damage is a good idea, excluding the lack of planar weapon choices. It’s a bit silly that you can start mass producing dark swords on the first autumn and they can (and probably will) still be your primary weapon choice for lategame content like cc or fw. Getting stronger weapons as you progress is a massive part of any power fantasy-esque game and if that’s the direction DST is taking then it’ll need to have that, and I think having to juggle and manage 2 damage stats is more interesting than late game weapons being just “dark sword but more damage” 

[goatt]

To artificially extend the life of the game.

Honestly, now I think about it, planar damage isn't really necessary. Just make planar armor having 50% armor and call it a day will do the same trick.

[Yuuko]

Planar stuff is exactly what I thought it would be...  Its all artificial.  They take things away so they can give them back as "new" things.  Wolfgang loses a lot of damage via planar type and surprise surprise in his skill tree he gets piles of planar damage.......................  I fully expect Wanda will have the same thing.  Its so fake.  What was good about planar stuff we got would still be good without planar damage - the BS plants and shadow trio would still be interesting and new fights, the portals would still be a nuisance, the staff, bomb, and scythe would all be fun weapons still...  Like planar is the excuse that makes it all feel so fake.

So many useful, interesting, and balanced weapon options all get dumpstered for new content.  I still don't like it.

I still think a better option would be to make the BS sword ignore damage mods but just do a lot more damage, like 101 or more per swing.  A fitting reward for people who played through without damage boosts.

imo the biggest weird thing about it all is like...  defeating AFW and CC was end game...  We had end game.  We had a lot of options for combat.  Some mild tuning could have brought out a lot more of what we had but instead... we got this...  It is not my favorite.

In general I think most of what Klei should be doing at DST right now is bringing out the most of what we already have.  More RWYS style re-works that bring neglected but loved mechanics back into focus.

[Cheggf]

40 minutes ago, goblinball said:

This is definitely an issue now, but hopefully it gets resolved in the future as more planar weapons are added (I’m not saying this WILL happen, just that I hope it will)

i do think discouraging use of older weapons through planar damage is a good idea, excluding the lack of planar weapon choices. It’s a bit silly that you can start mass producing dark swords on the first autumn and they can (and probably will) still be your primary weapon choice for lategame content like cc or fw. Getting stronger weapons as you progress is a massive part of any power fantasy-esque game and if that’s the direction DST is taking then it’ll need to have that, and I think having to juggle and manage 2 damage stats is more interesting than late game weapons being just “dark sword but more damage” 

Personally I don't think that being able to speedrun to the good items if you're a good player is necessarily a bad thing. There's still plenty of non-weapon based items that you want (e.g. jellybeans), and plenty of weapons which are more difficult to acquire (e.g. shield of terror). I would've preferred more weapons be added with merits that stand on their own (e.g. shield of terror) instead of just re-introducing the current arsenal with a new coat of paint.

P.S. "Coat of paint" is another issue, since there's plenty of great skins for the current arsenal, but no skins for the new stuff. I really don't like how the new items look and want skins to replace their looks, but there are none. I get to choose between half a dozen dark sword skins based on which one I feel like using right now, and have several choices for thulecite armor. But once I get to dreadstone and above it's suddenly nada. Only the base appearance for me.

[Mike23Ua]

There is only ONE (maybe two if you want to count the Marshmellows) mob in the game that even has any kind of interaction whatsoever with Planar Damage….

So until Klei adds something other than Deadly Brightshades, Which are a stationary easy as hell mob to kill… I can’t properly judge Planar Damage- OR for that matter what it’s intended purpose even is..

Your saying whawhawha Wha Planar Damage sucks…

But meanwhile I’m over here wondering if this won’t lead to regular bats getting Moontations (that’s a real word now get over it..) which gives them a new visual look, some boosted attacks, and prevents me from using older weapons like spear, Darkswords and Hambats on them due to a Resistance to any Weapon below Lunar Tier…

if that’s the purpose of Planar Damage: Then I’m freaking excited to see more to come.

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

This is definitely an issue now, but hopefully it gets resolved in the future as more planar weapons are added (I’m not saying this WILL happen, just that I hope it will)

We've had 10+ years of updates for what is now the mid-game. I'm not saying that it'll never happen, but I'd not hold my breath given Klei's track record.  

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

i do think discouraging use of older weapons through planar damage is a good idea, excluding the lack of planar weapon choices. It’s a bit silly that you can start mass producing dark swords on the first autumn and they can (and probably will) still be your primary weapon choice for lategame content like cc or fw.

Maybe it is. But that doesn't address the fact that planar damage hurts every other weapon in the game 

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

Getting stronger weapons as you progress is a massive part of any power fantasy-esque game and if that’s the direction DST is taking then it’ll need to have that, and I think having to juggle and manage 2 damage stats is more interesting than late game weapons being just “dark sword but more damage” 

Wow. That is an aweful direction for the game to take. I don't think I'd even thought of it like that before. And now I wish I really hadn't. 

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

snip

Couldn't agree more, I don't think we should straight up jump to 102 since this is the first batch of rift items and to jump from 68 instantly by 34 would be a bit silly imo, I still believe that if planar mechanics were to be removed we could have just had an 85 DMG weapon and no one would bat an eye.

 

The fact I even agree with the direction Klei should be going with lol... I hate how so many things in this game are unbalanced (the entire dish roster), unnecessary (ocean), not useful (most of the ocean and caves), too useful, too boring and predictable (worldgen) could be changed and the game would be better afterwards yet instead the core game enhancement updates are simply just skill trees from what it seems is annoying.

[Cheggf]

39 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

We've had 10+ years of updates for what is now the mid-game. I'm not saying that it'll never happen, but I'd not hold my breath given Klei's track record.  

Especially with them now deciding to give every character a skill tree.

[Yuuko]

39 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

yet instead the core game enhancement updates are simply just skill trees from what it seems is annoying.

And really even the skill trees are not so bad b/c characters do need a second balance pass, and this gives Klei a way to allow players customization over how their characters were played.  The lunar vs shadow is even thematic, with certain perks locked until AFW or CC has been defeated make them really interesting.

But again - planar damage is not needed for any of this.  They could have taken Wolfgang's damage down to only +50% at mighty and had perks unlock the other 50%.  They could have had his speed when mighty unlocked again too!  Just make it so that 100% of his perk points are needed to obtain all of that, and balance with interesting perks for players who are willing to forgo a bit of damage or move speed.  I'd probably see ditching move speed or some damage in favor of harvesting procs as an interesting choice where I could easily decide different things at different points in the game, which is the good point of their skill trees.  Instead planar does the damage nerf, and the damage is given back as planar damage making it probably the least interesting "decision" I'd ever make...

What would be really cool is if some talent points were gained by accepting shadow bargains that penalized you instead.  Let us pick some really bad downsides to get enough points to unlock all of the upsides.  Just imagine if any character could pick double hunger rate for a few extra points lol  Imagine a whole server with old-wolfgang's belly lol.  That would be an angle to tackle the overabundance of food without tampering with noobs too.

[Cheggf]

29 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

And really even the skill trees are not so bad b/c characters do need a second balance pass, and this gives Klei a way to allow players customization over how their characters were played.  The lunar vs shadow is even thematic, with certain perks locked until AFW or CC has been defeated make them really interesting.

But again - planar damage is not needed for any of this.  They could have taken Wolfgang's damage down to only +50% at mighty and had perks unlock the other 50%.  They could have had his speed when mighty unlocked again too!  Just make it so that 100% of his perk points are needed to obtain all of that, and balance with interesting perks for players who are willing to forgo a bit of damage or move speed.  I'd probably see ditching move speed or some damage in favor of harvesting procs as an interesting choice where I could easily decide different things at different points in the game, which is the good point of their skill trees.  Instead planar does the damage nerf, and the damage is given back as planar damage making it probably the least interesting "decision" I'd ever make...

Wolfgang's skill tree is currently literally only "Number bigger", with only 3 exceptions (one of which is the gym minigame autoplaying, lol). If they had actually stripped Wolfgang of his stuff and given it back through the skill tree then "Number bigger" would go from the worst most boring skill tree to the best most interesting skill tree. If Wolfgang had poor base stats like 1.0x everything normal and only 1.5x damage, 1.2x work rate, 1.0x movement, and 0% crit chance but could augment these with the skills that would be interesting. You would tailor your own Wolfgang with choices that you want. "More damage" is uninteresting when there isn't really an alternative choice, but "More damage" would become interesting when you might be sacrificing work rate, work crit chance, movement speed, or some other perk in exchange for it.

But that would be them actually designing a skill tree like a skill tree instead of just slapping random things on top of decade old characters.

35 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

What would be really cool is if some talent points were gained by accepting shadow bargains that penalized you instead.  Let us pick some really bad downsides to get enough points to unlock all of the upsides.  Just imagine if any character could pick double hunger rate for a few extra points lol  Imagine a whole server with old-wolfgang's belly lol.  That would be an angle to tackle the overabundance of food without tampering with noobs too.

I believe they removed the hunger drain from Wolfgang and Wes (who it was somewhat inconsequential on) because of the weird perception random people have for no reason. Wolfgangs and Weses joining a server used to be regaled with pre-emptive complaints about the food they're going to eat (even though Wolfgangs & Weses almost always got their own food, and usually enough to share), just like in the current build people trumpet the arrival of Willow with pre-emptive accustions of griefing (because she doesn't need to grab 2 pieces of grass, or 0 pieces of grass if she joined after day 10).

[Fufuji]

4 hours ago, goatt said:

To artificially extend the life of the game.

Honestly, now I think about it, planar damage isn't really necessary. Just make planar armor having 50% armor and call it a day will do the same trick.

I am still dreaming of a set of armor with low defense and high boosts (for damage or sth else).

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

snip

The only reason why I like Woodie's skill tree so much is because even though it still has flaws, it actually encourages me to make different builds, I can go for builds with the Wereforms in mind or I can completely ignore them and go for the skills that help me and my team without the use of Wereforms. And I think the only reason his skill tree could turn out this way is because he was a mediocre character to begin with ignoring other characters he synergised with (characters that could heal him in Wereforms like Wortox and Wigfrid).

 

I'd love to have to pick downsides too in exchange for more upsides, but instead we get boring skill trees like Wolfgang has where it's just stat increases without any merit, where 5 skill points can be used to exclusively give him more planar damage which goes against the design of planar damage itself lol.

Thank you for the banger comments.

[Jakepeng99]

I think the design of planar damage is ok, but on skill trees it is really awfully done, why does Wolfgang have 5 skills in his mighty section, and all of them only add +5 planar damage? Why not make him deal extra planar damage base kit and add something more interesting as a replacement? You just never pick it unless you are in riff content where you always pick it.

[Evelo]

idk, I like the idea of planar damage, I just think there needs to be the opposite. Shadow damage or something. Very odd to me that it affects one but not the other. Maybe it will be explained in further updates. We'll see.