On Wickerbottom

[ShadowDuelist]

Problem: Wickerbottom is a very different character from Maxwell for sure, but since the Maxwell rework you are wasting potential if you don’t switch to Maxwell once you got most books, since you pretty much keep all her benefits with less downsides, plus all Maxwell powers which are amazing.

I think Maxwell should be able to use the books as a bonus but kinda have a very different role to wickerbottom. He consumes more sanity from books, but I think even though the idea is good in a day to day play through it’s not “quite on the spot” yet

Easy to code solution I’ve been thinking:
Allow Wickerbottom to change her magical capabilities depending on how much sanity she has.

Wickerbottom when above 50% sanity, will consume half sanity from all magic consuming items (including her books). Basically when she has high sanity it will act as a “shield” from magical damage. This would not apply to shadow magic, just regular magic: staves, books, lazy deserter, etc.

I’d also add that when she has above 50% sanity any book she has in her inventory will slowly gain durability back at half the rate it would gain in a bookcase.

Q: Wouldnt that make bookcases useless?
A: To my point of view no. Not only bookcases act as an alchemy station for everyone, and unlock new books for wicker, even after all the books have been unlocked the amount of books you can craft are too much to carry around and you would certainly do better leaving those that are not needed in the field. Plus they will regenerate faster and more consistently in the bookcase, so switching half used books for fresh 100% at the library whenever you have the opportunity will still be a thing.

This change is aimed for a magic wielding wicker to be more viable without having to go back to base so often, specially since most of the new books are not self fueled EG: on tentacles gives more spots than those spent allowing you to keep making more books. Same with STS, makes you insane allowing you to keep making more books as long as you carry a stack of papyrus only. The new books you’d carry around (arachnophobia, bees book, pyrochinetics, tempering temperatures, rain book, etc) are not self powered and would require you to cast mostly at base or with regular returns to it.
A small regen on the books as you upkeep your sanity, would allow a “mage wicker” to be free from base a lot more. (While also going further the “I have to refill my mana” theme for a mage, except in this case it would be sanity)

 

Wouldn’t this make Wicker OP?
On pen and paper wicker sounds like the greatest thing but when you actually play her you will notice she’s far from being OP, you have to work a lot on your way to see some results and be very careful on abusing your powers to not be destroyed by nightmares. Maxwell is a lot easier now than her, this just makes her more viable to stay as.
 

These changes are also self balanced: the more you use your powers, the lower your sanity will be and the harder it will be for you to fix your books or not spawn nightmares. And it distances her from Maxwell, allowing her to use her magic books outside of base more times and more often than him, not only limited by the nightmares spawn.

Sorry for the long post and I’m all eyes to read your opinions, specially from Wicker mains who are probably very aware of this issue. Would this fix it for you?
 

[djturner]

I disagree with the premise of the problem because I think if you really go down the rabbit hole of "this character is good for x but after x you should just switch to y" you end up in a place where everybody is playing Wanda eventually and basically every character has the same issue. IMO, the game shouldn't be balanced around the ability to swap your character; it's highly problematic and constraining in terms of design.

That said, I like your proposal just for its own sake and for the Wickerbottom flavor of it all. Anything to make characters more unique moment-to-moment is A+ in my book, and the change seems reasonable (to me anyway) on the power level scale. The ability to more freely use staves and books is exactly the kind of stuff I'd love to see out of Wickerbottom.

[ShadowDuelist]

12 minutes ago, djturner said:

I disagree with the premise of the problem because I think if you really go down the rabbit hole of "this character is good for x but after x you should just switch to y" you end up in a place where everybody is playing Wanda eventually and basically every character has the same issue. IMO, the game shouldn't be balanced around the ability to swap your character; it's highly problematic and constraining in terms of design.

That said, I like your proposal just for its own sake and for the Wickerbottom flavor of it all. Anything to make characters more unique moment-to-moment is A+ in my book, and the change seems reasonable (to me anyway) on the power level scale. The ability to more freely use staves and books is exactly the kind of stuff I'd love to see out of Wickerbottom.

You are correct, I probably didn't word that right because on that sense, anyone could argue "but wolfgang is better for X reasons".
I guess I compared the two because Maxwell is, gameplay wise, the most similar character to her and can easily inherit most of her power.
This would be more aimed to further distance their uses, so they can still be complementary at all stages of the game.

[Brago-sama]

It kinda feels like this whole thing stems from being able to switch chars too early. Imagine if it was walled off until after celestial champion.

[Well-met]

Maxwell's ability to read wicker's books was designed in a time when the celestial portal didn't exist

just something to remember 

[00petar00]

I really don't understand why refreshed Maxwell kept the ability to read the books, especially considering that bookcase was added to the game and allows you to restore books.

Either take away his ability to read books or the better solution in my opinion is to just lock bookcase to Wickerbottom players so only they can open it like how Maxwell's magician's top hat works.

Maxwell has a strong enough kit on his own without even using Wickerbottom's books but even if he is allowed to read them, why does he get to use the bookcase?

[gamehun20]

16 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Maxwell's magician's top hat

Other people can use the shadow dimension too it's not really locked both shadow chester and shadow box

[Dragonboooorn]

6 minutes ago, gamehun20 said:

Other people can use the shadow dimension too it's not really locked both shadow chester and shadow box

Isnt Maxwell gave Wickerbottom secret knowledge, that might be a huge part of her new books? 

Plus its always a good thing when other characters can also interact with others survivors special gear. 

Wickerbottom seem to be in a very good relationship with Wurt, she teach her new stuff and they read books together.

Maxwell and Wickerbottom are also seem to be more than just acquaintances, judging by their quotes

[Evelo]

Solution: Don't use the Celestial Portal.

[ShadowDuelist]

2 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Solution: Don't use the Celestial Portal.

Perhaps I didn't make the point very clear, I didn't originally mean this as another "Maxwell vs Wicker" post, but more of looking for a simple non-nerf, and not OP solution to distance Wicker of Maxwell's gameplay and roles, despite Maxwell being able to still use her books.

A higher resistance to magic when at high sanity, and a slow book regen will give Wicker the main thing I consider she lacks and Maxwell does great, which is autonomy when spellcasting. This would in no way interfere or damage Maxwell, just make Wicker more unique.

[Well-met]

59 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Solution: Don't use the Celestial Portal.

everyone could also just use Wes to address poor character balance but hey that's just not how it works apparently

[Cloakingsumo198]

Just make wicker better instead of separating their symbiosis

[ArubaroBeefalo]

wont hurt if she gets little perks to make her gameplay less "Wilson but with access to some console commands"

[gamehun20]

Wicker is immune to sleep

[Evelo]

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wont hurt if she gets little perks to make her gameplay less "Wilson but with access to some console commands"

I'd also like if Klei made her downsides a little more noticeable.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

11 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I'd also like if Klei made her downsides a little more noticeable.

"cant sleep" downside? i like what they made but ended up being an upside xD

[Evelo]

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

"cant sleep" downside? i like what they made but ended up being an upside xD

Well mostly the food pickyness or... something. The spawning of Terrorbeaks was a step in the right direction.

[Mysterious box]

Assuming we don't expand Wickerbottom in a different direction I feel like the best solution would be to just add a system to the bookcase where wickerbottom needs to interact with it at least once per 20 days to jump start the restoring process.

Wouldn't really break anything and would make her feel more necessary even if only artificially. While I dislike the pick and swap debate it does seem weird to me that she's the only character whose power is borrowable that you never have to return to even when other characters are brought up in this situation regardless of how short you still have to return to them eventually and in those cases those characters have more to work with outside of what they share.

[Riddla]

Really not sure on how this should be approached, I feel like taking away books from Maxwell ruins the fun, I think it's a neat synergy between him and Wickerbottom in a multiplayer setting. There are some ideas that could be tackled on the surface level at least.

1.) Wickerbottom's spells could be empowered on specific condition.
Like how in Forge after she deals certain amount of total damage, her next spell is empowered. However in vanilla world, the condition should be different in some way. High sanity perhaps? Or some wacky ritual? There should be some sort of reward you can work for that makes your select spells more powerful the next time you read them. Perhaps some interesting side bonus that is different to spellbook's standard effect.
(For example: Sleepytime Stories slows mobs movement speed down by x% after waking up, or Tempering Temperatures could grant temporary immunity to wetness/temperature fluctuations)



2.) Maxwell reading books could have either lesser, or weaker effects.
The books should get weakened in some way that doesn't just make you resort to spamming books (so, like, no "grow 3 crops instead of 15 with horticulture", nobody wants to spam 72 books to grow a plot). For example the rain book could have a considerable delay before the effect occurs, maybe 1-2 minutes or something.



3.) Maxwell reading books could either backfire, or have some sort of curse.
I think it'd fit him if some shadows started screwing with him when he tries to cast something. Something besides just ordinarily spawning a random terrorbeak out of nowhere - make them actually irritate Maxwell in horrible ways, like how Wavey Jones activates random things on your boat.

As for curses, they could just be side effects to books. Maybe with a condition, like low sanity? Or guaranteed.
What if Silviculture, for example, suddenly morphed some tree into Treeguard/Birchnut?
Or the web from "Overcoming Arachnophobia" suddenly formed a spider egg that immediately exploded into a bunch of spiders that will target Maxwell?
Those two examples are curses that can be used to your advantage as well

[Catapult 2.0]

Support, this will be a good balance adjustment.

[Tranoze]

Remove maxwell from the equation, Wicker is already an op character that can feed the entire server with all the basic resources. She doesnt need any buff. My proposal is:

Book now recover much slower when in bookcase. When there are no wicker around, maxwell should need 10 lunar books to keep every day full moon.
For compensation:
Bookcase craft recipies should be cheaper.
Book recover faster when she around, and distance needed is wider. Wicker also can recover book durability instantly with feather pencil.

Everyone should be able to read one of the book. Not all the book. For example:
Wilson can read The Everything Encyclopedia
Willow can read Pyrokinetics Explained
Webber can read Overcoming Arachnophobia

Basically she will be what she used to be: "a librarian". She can build library for everyone to use, and you need her to take care of the book when their durability got low.

Or when someone that not wicker read book, it lost 10% max durability, and only wicker can restore it personally.

[gamehun20]

I feel like that would make the problem of just make the books and then switch worse and would make the character feel less special because at that point might as well make everyone be able to read every book

[Flip Face]

Wickerbottom loses more sanity from fires.

[ApoIIo]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:50 PM, 00petar00 said:

I really don't understand why refreshed Maxwell kept the ability to read the books, especially considering that bookcase was added to the game and allows you to restore books.

Either take away his ability to read books or the better solution in my opinion is to just lock bookcase to Wickerbottom players so only they can open it like how Maxwell's magician's top hat works.

Maxwell has a strong enough kit on his own without even using Wickerbottom's books but even if he is allowed to read them, why does he get to use the bookcase?

I think the suggested change on this post is a more interesting way to go about making Wickerbottom special than just locking him out of the bookcase. It'd also save Tempering Temperatures as it is... kind of a very weak book for what it does. I tried using it but I found myself going back to setting things on fire.
TBH already 2.5x sanity is expensive and seldom book usage glues the bone helm to your head, so swapping out to head slot items is a bit more annoying when they're desired over bone helm (e.g. eyebrella for summer). I may simply care to stay Wicker based wholly on that.

I like both characters and being able to read on Maxwell makes the game quite fun for me(I play with a Wicker who keeps forgetting to read), but I'm absolutely all in for giving Wicker even more extra love because she deserves it.

E.g. in RoG Wicker says a varg can never be domesticated, but in DST she calls the idea an entertaining challenge. You could let her use a nerfed codex umbra so you could have 2 magician character choices, with one leaning towards the codex and the other better with books. (Her no longer hating the codex would be a neat development, after spending enough time in the constant assisted by her captor)

On 2/17/2023 at 8:48 PM, gamehun20 said:

I feel like that would make the problem of just make the books and then switch worse and would make the character feel less special because at that point might as well make everyone be able to read every book

I wouldn't mind that honestly. On a character perspective, it's what she would've wanted(She thinks everyone should have access to a library). On a gameplay perspective, with some *tight* nerfs to non-Wicker readers and bit more in favor of the Wicker reading, you could give everyone a bit more very-lategame potential without invalidating her.

Most of the time when a character leaves the world their perks and related structures just sit there and gather dust, so I like it much better when it's like Bernie who everyone can use a lesser version of.

In that sense, I love the magician's box/shadow chester because everyone can use the ender chest-esque storage without Maxwell, with just a little bit more effort.

Or a better idea, limit the reading of non-readers to once a day and cost 60% of a character's max sanity. Spawn six nightmarebeaks if hitting 0 sanity. (BYPASSING bone helm neutrality by spawning aggroed on the player until they die) Hard day-locks are annoying, but not being able to utilize her perks on a frequent basis is just annoying enough to convince someone to stay Wicker or Maxwell IMO. (can't stop rain and make a full moon in the same day, taking forever to refresh the tentacle pit, stuck with 2 bees until the next day, crappy at using the farming books, no sleepytime/birds of the world farm etc.) (the panflute exists but it's one batch per day as opposed to spamming 'em)
And if there's a live Wickerbottom in the server the nerfs are halved except for the big sanity cost. (She's a good influence)

I think that's enough nerfs for you to reconsider reading at all, but it's still preferable to the bookcase gathering dust IMO.

[Gi-Go]

Wikerbottom is the worst character in the game now because she is a minion character. Not like Webber or Wurt. She herself IS the minion (of Maxwell).

Name me a single reason to play Wikerbottom other than to serve Maxwell.

She crafts books and bookcases for Maxwell to use. Applied Silviculture and horticulture are for Maxwell since he can harvest better. Bee book is for Maxwell since bees combo with shadows nicely. Tentacles are for Maxwell since he can trap creatures right on top of them. Fire quill is for Maxwell to have better control over duelists.

Maxwell is a direct upgrade and the only thing wikerbottom is better at is reading without going nuts. But even this is irrelevant with bone helmet and what do you know! Maxwell benefits from it more as well. 

 

I've been wikerbottom main for a long time but naturally I swapped to Maxwell after his rework (just like any other wiker main with common sence did). 

What would I change? Honestly I don't care about Wiker. She is irrelevant and I'm sure klei aren't interested in changing her. But, if klei do want to make her even a little bit enjoyable to play - here are my simple suggestions:

1. Make books equal. Some books drain more sanity that others, and some books only have 3 uses instead of 5 for absolutely zero reasons. Fix this. All books are cheap and spammable with book case and barely last without it. This "balance" feature is utter nonsense.

2. Buff Wiker reading benefits. Less sanity drain is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Klei are so stingy with sanity it's incredibly frustrating. Easiest stat to loose, hardest stat to refill and absolutely laughable gameplay relevance. I don't care if it's 125, 50 or 33 sanity per use I am not cooking banana shakes. I'd rather just not read books at all because I remind you 90% of characters can't read and couldn't care less. And then there's bone helmet. What was the idea of shadows spawning from reading again? 

3. Buff books. I won't elaborate since noone reads this anyways, but new books smell like deadline and I don't like them. 

 

 

TLDR: Wikerbottom should loose only 5 sanity from reading, and she should loose only 5% durability on any book she read, thus making them a lot more casual tool and casual tools have more scenarios where I'd wanna use them.