Rain rituals needs to be kneecapped

[finn from human]

While I understand the fear of something like a character making some seasons way easier for the whole server... this sort of thing isn't entirely new, for example Wurt can hold the thermal fishes for heat and cool while her natural merm-iness makes her fine with the rain. The difference between that and Wickerbottom is that Wurt's perk is a selfish one, benefiting only herself, while Wickerbottom's rain rituals is a team perk, she shares this resistance to rain with all players in the server. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all (and would love more character perks that benefit all players like this), as it's still something that will only apply when there's a Wickerbottom in the server who's willing to do it constantly... and let's be honest, the amount of such is going to drop drastically after a few weeks just like most reworks, as everyone who doesn't mesh with her returns to their old favorites.

[maxwell_winters]

18 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

While I understand the fear of something like a character making some seasons way easier for the whole server... this sort of thing isn't entirely new, for example Wurt can hold the thermal fishes for heat and cool while her natural merm-iness makes her fine with the rain. The difference between that and Wickerbottom is that Wurt's perk is a selfish one, benefiting only herself, while Wickerbottom's rain rituals is a team perk, she shares this resistance to rain with all players in the server. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all (and would love more character perks that benefit all players like this), as it's still something that will only apply when there's a Wickerbottom in the server who's willing to do it constantly... and let's be honest, the amount of such is going to drop drastically after a few weeks just like most reworks, as everyone who doesn't mesh with her returns to their old favorites.

Well, no one here advocates for removal of the book. It's mostly about the recipe, which some people consider way too accessible for the power this book gives. Even if we compare it to Wurt, you still need more time and patience to catch seasonal fishes. 

[WhackE]

8 hours ago, Ohan said:

Bruh.. Did u mean to post this in maxwell memes instead? 

It's people like you that make the forums ****.

Thank you for providing nothing to my thread, and only proving my point.

7 hours ago, Owlrust said:

To add to that, WX's Blue & Red Gem circuits invalidate 2 seasons in their entirety. Put on the thermal circuit and you've beaten Winter, vice versa for the other one for Summer.

Why do you people only want to make me more right.

you are comparing, an individual item, which takes up a slot for WX's other circuits that only effect his character, to a global effect that turns of any dangers during summer, gives you full control of rain in 3 seasons, and does other minute things, like effect crop growth

You are missing my point entirely and cherry picking.

And yes, even changing the recipe to a Narwail horn, or even Spittle fish would be better, If two blue gems are "too cheap"  because even those would make more sense and have to be something you go out of your way to get.

[SonicDen220]

Next patch: Adjusted the recipe for Rain Rituals (now requires an eyebrella and a waterfowl can). Now we're back to square one, just like with lunar grimoire, the recipe is expensive as hell and everyone is happy!!!!!!!!!

I'm kidding of course, but it's still a funny situation to imagine.

[WhackE]

you people do also realize the book case restores book durability for books you leave in it, for free, forever.

[maxwell_winters]

21 minutes ago, SonicDen220 said:

Next patch: Adjusted the recipe for Rain Rituals (now requires an eyebrella and a waterfowl can). Now we're back to square one, just like with lunar grimoire, the recipe is expensive as hell and everyone is happy!!!!!!!!!

I'm kidding of course, but it's still a funny situation to imagine.

If we're being serious, there aren't any mid-tier Lunar items. It's either something accessible and on the surface or something super rare and hard to renew. It's much easier to pick mid-tier thematic items for Rain Book.

[Maxil20]

15 hours ago, WhackE said:

and changing the recipe to 2papyrus, 1 blue gem, and  2 water balloons. Or  2 papyrus, 2 blue gems

If the crafting cost is the main concern, I would personally change the watering can to being a waterfowl can/malbatross oar. The item is not so easy to get early on, but certainty can start to stockpile later on in the game, and also seems to fit the book.

 

15 hours ago, WhackE said:

There is also a bit of overlap with Tempering temperatures, why set your wetness to 0 when you can just turn off rain entirely?

I feel like the issue here is because TT is a bit underpowered. I'm personally a bit amused it only has 3 uses while Practical Rain Rituals has 5 uses. Flipping the uses/increasing TT to also be 5 would be a nice change.

[HowlVoid]

Can we stop trying to nerf the books, balance where it is now is fairly decent. 

(Except the end is nigh)

[WhackE]

6 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

If the crafting cost is the main concern, I would personally change the watering can to being a waterfowl can/malbatross oar. The item is not so easy to get early on, but certainty can start to stockpile later on in the game, and also seems to fit the book.

I feel like the issue here is because TT is a bit underpowered. I'm personally a bit amused it only has 3 uses while Practical Rain Rituals has 5 uses. Flipping the uses/increasing TT to also be 5 would be a nice change.

Thank you for actually providing feedback and contributing to the thread.

 I'm open on the recipe, waterfowl can/malbatross oar would be interesting, and possibly better then blue gems since people don't seem to like that.

also yeah rain rituals having more durability than the Temperature book is very backwards, It would make more sense to have there uses swapped. I hope Someone at Klei is listening. You there Jesse?

[Mysterious box]

Figure I'd give my final thoughts on the rain book as I don't think I'm invested enough to continue too long on the topic. So in my eyes rain control should have been a feature that was open to be unlocked after 1 in game year of surviving the seasons of the world however instead it was turned into a early game character perk which I'm not a fan of but I'm equally not a fan of time gating a character perk for a full year so I don't really mind if the recipe changes or not since I don't think turning off mechanics on that scale should have been allowed in the first year.

[maxwell_winters]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

So in my eyes rain control should have been a feature that was open to be unlocked after 1 in game year of surviving the seasons of the world however instead it was turned into a early game character perk which I'm not a fan of but I'm equally not a fan of time gating a character perk for a full year so I don't really mind if the recipe changes or not since I don't think turning off mechanics on that scale should have been allowed in the first year.

I cannot agree more with the criteria. In that case, what comes to my mind is spitterfish (summons the rain) and cookie cutter hat (stops the rain). The latter isn't a perfect fit, but the rain hat is too cheap, the rain coat requires tentacles spots and I don't want Wicker to have 2 books with tentacles spots in the recipe. 

I also don't like that this book currently requires 2 items that you can find in your storage room. It feels uninspired. In my opinion, magic should require things channeled with energy. I fail to see any energy worth harnessing in an umbrella and a watering can. But that's just a me thing.

[Primalflower]

gonna throw my two cents here and say that i think the rain rituals are totally fine and don't need any change, I think to myself that realistically, theres not much different from the eyebrella or the equivalent wetness prevention item, only less selfish, at the cost of sanity from wickerbottom.

I feel like it's consistently being overlooked that the seasons aren't immediately nullified purely by the books existing, a wickerbottom has to consistently read them, and rain isn't consistent, so the amount of reads you need are going to be ever changing. I could go into so many little implications with this that complicate things, and as a result I don't think the rain rituals book recipe is something that needs to be changed, it's just really good. Such is a common theme with wickerbottom.

Additionally, Its astonishing how inflammatory OP has been throughout this entire thread, and I'm quite surprised no visible action has been done about it.

[oregu]

23 hours ago, WhackE said:

except it's not cheaper, the current cost is made from very common resources, wood, grass, pig skin, silk, Etc... Blue gems can only be easily obtained early on from graves, and that's if you have good rng.

The resources the book currently costs are extremely easy to farm and collect large amounts of and they're items you are going to go after anyways, I'm not saying blue gems aren't farmable, but they are harder to obtain early on. 2 blue gems is not cheaper.

you almost have to go out of your way to get the gems

Hello there. I know is pretty late response here, but this is my tip about obtaining blue gems that I hope clarifies why I said it's cheaper than a umbrella and watering can. They aren't scarce in any fashion, and are rarely sunk into any use early game (I can only think of purple gem for manipulator if no bishops were in the world). If you don't like that it starts to sound like a Bearded video, sorry.
After testing, I got that graveyards in the mosaic usually have ~13 graves. I'm just pulling info from the wiki, but it's 7.625% chance to get a blue gem from any grave. You're guaranteed to find at least 1 blue gem on average. You can also dig the graves along the forests in the world while hammering pig houses (both that I strongly recommend you do early on). I'd guess there's about 7 on average per forest (marked by grave icon on map) and there's always a Mandrake and Moonstone forest (sometimes a Swamp forest). Then, you have the guaranteed 2 blue gem from Dragonfly (though I recognize it's not something everyone does before first Winter). Now we get to winter, and each Mactusk spawns with 2 ice hounds. You can get a max of 6 Mactusk spawns per winter for each camp (Load in the camp every 2.5 days). Even if you only had the guaranteed camp in Moonstone forest, you'd have 2.4 blue gems on average from them per Winter. The rain book doesn't become that relevant until Spring.
I get your point that the methods to getting blue gems include dangers that the current ingredients don't have, but these I still think the task of killing mactusk and digging graves is generally easy for anyone commited enough that I think anyone should be doing. Not really gonna be that guy who's like 'just get other people to do it then', but you'll likely find blue gems in a base that no one is using if you're playing with other people. That's why I'm actually in support of the recipe, because it's an appropriate resource sink and your reasoning is pretty solid on why those could be the ingredients (though green gems represent regrowth more than blue gems, but rain normally presents coldness, and you can make it snow with the book as well). It is cheaper, but only in early game as you're able to obtain them while doing other valuable tasks. Pig skin, wood, and silk are often more valuable early than late game.
That would thematically make sense as well, though adding gems to the book's recipe would probably make it a 'magic' item because it uses magic related ingredients. The telelocator staff uses a purple gem, and makes it rain. The red part probably makes the thunder, then one could hypothesize that the blue part probably makes the rain.

[WhackE]

6 hours ago, oregu said:

-snip-

Better a late response than never. I appreciate you explaining why you think blue gems are cheaper, because your explanation clears things up and is very reasonable, I agree with what you're saying and see where you're coming from.

given the current recipe I will not change my mind, There have not been any valid arguments as to why the recipe should not be nerfed, I have only heard "she's fine, and in a  good spot." and people belittling me, which doesn't prove me wrong.

Wicker is the only character who can easily manage the moon and justifiably they nerf it, but people didn't like the nerf, and they were wrong!  She's also the only character who can control rain as well now, which is why it should be given a similar treatment, and have a more justifiable recipe. Given the use of ease and the control she has being able to turn it on and off and the versatility of rain given what rain can do when you want it on. Turning rain off or on for barely any cost is insanely good, Nerfing the book is justifiable. 

Wx has the ability to invalidate two seasons, yes, but he doesn't have the ability to turn off rain and still needs to deal with wetness in some way. The rain book is much more versatile than being immune to one season as it does more than that for less. He must also take up circuit slots which limits the options for clothing/circuits depending on how you play.

As @x0-VERSUS-1y brought up, a dedicated wicker player will be able to gain the blue gems required and at most this will delay them. Which is fine, if going out of way to gain access to this book is what you want, I think that is perfectly reasonable. Obviously given enough time with a world you can make as many as you want, and I do want to impede players from having easy access to this book because the current recipe is too available.

Sanity is not as much as an issue  as some people are saying unless you are spamming books, you wont need to use all the books all the time, and even if you do with all of her new books, Most players will have a Tam' as that is a a relatively early and reliable source of sanity for Wicker. As well as taffy is which also easier to get later in a world which is when you will most likely be using this book to begin with, and not the first 20-30 days of the game.

wicker is also able to infinitely repair her books once she has one, as the book case regenerate books, which means once you have this item, so long as you do not fully use the durability you can get it back to 100% without crafting a new one, which will also justify a more expensive recipe. This also allows you to stockpile the books once you have them.

To anyone that assumes I am saying the temperature is the same book as rain rituals, that is not what I am saying, I have stated multiple times they serve a similar purpose as they both deal with wetness. If you want rain, as wicker, there are better ways to deal with it then the temperature book IMO, but the temp book and rain rituals can both remove wetness, that is all I implied. 

Rain is not the only source of wetness but IT IS THE MAIN source of wetness in this game. Which is why I feel nerfing the rain book is justified and gives more value to tempering temperatures, it's also why I feel the durability of the two book should be swapped. 

I am open to the recipe not being blue gems as I have stated, but the current recipe and durability is not okay.

and yes I am going to be a little peeved with the way this thread started off.

I can only hope I have sparked some internal discussion in Klei to have changes happen.

[Antynomity]

NERF EVERYTHING, OP!!!!! 

[WhackE]

8 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

NERF EVERYTHING, OP!!!!! 

That's so true!

[Antynomity]

For real though... Why do we have to nerf character specific abilities this much? I don't care about if it's expensive or not, but the rain book is extremely time gated now, which makes the unique strategies that could be used as wicker in speedrunning a lot less valuable and usable too.

[WhackE]

As interesting as speedrunning is, I don't think it's how games should be balanced. (unless it's a game intentionally designed for speed running but that's a genre which Don't starve isn't)

Even though don't starve is becoming more casual I still think things should be balanced, character specific perks especially powerful ones that no one has access to. Wicker is a smorgasbord of different effects which lets her do a lot of varied things, and I feel you have to balance a lot of stuff relative to what the item does. Don't starve is a game that takes place over a longer game session, and I feel things should reflect that in some way, as not everything should be obtainable from the start. Or at least unless you rush something because you hyper focus it.

2 down feathers is till relatively cheap, even if time gated because you can still make quite a few rain books now, it's just up to you to go get the feathers required. 

I hate writing long stuff so basically TL;DR
 

Don't starve together is a survival game and should be balanced around surviving not speed running, sorry if I sound harsh, and isn't finding ways to speed run games part of the challenge? 

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, WhackE said:

snip

Sorry, I worded myself incorrectly but time gating Practical Rain Rituals makes so the only time you get it at (spring) is the time where it's the most useless during (rains as you know are pretty common, long and intense during Spring), by it being available in any season before made for some really fun strategies earlier into the game, it made volt goat jelly even more useful (W) and also the morning star more useful (W) while the book still makes them more useful than before, it's going to be used in a lot more niche of situations, but maybe I'm just overthinking it.

(AS LONG AS TEIN IS BUFFED I WON'T COMPLAIN)

[SonicDen220]

4 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

Sorry, I worded myself incorrectly but time gating Practical Rain Rituals makes so the only time you get it at (spring) is the time where it's the most useless during (rains as you know are pretty common, long and intense during Spring), by it being available in any season before made for some really fun strategies earlier into the game, it made the morning star more useful (W) while the book still makes them more useful than before, it's going to be used in a lot more niche of situations, but maybe I'm just overthinking it.

(AS LONG AS TEIN IS BUFFED I WON'T COMPLAIN)

Rain book is still useful in spring because it can stop rains.

[Antynomity]

Just now, SonicDen220 said:

Rain book is still useful in spring because it can stop rains.

It is for sure, especially for frog rains (which I should have mentioned) but if we're talking normal rains on pubs then people can get a glommer day 11, keep getting the goop to craft alongside 3 flares into the new hostility flare to keep spawning deerclops (unless they change something) and getting eyebrellas for everyone, killing glommer on day 31 before the full moon, getting 1-2 goops from it and repeating the process while killing the glommer, and ending up with a few eyebrellas with a bit of luck at the end of winter.

[Capybara007]

Just now, yourAnty said:

It is for sure, especially for frog rains (which I should have mentioned) but if we're talking normal rains on pubs then people can get a glommer day 11, keep getting the goop to craft alongside 3 flares into the new hostility flare to keep spawning deerclops (unless they change something) and getting eyebrellas for everyone, killing glommer on day 31 before the full moon, getting 1-2 goops from it and repeating the process while killing the glommer, and ending up with a few eyebrellas with a bit of luck at the end of winter.

6 people coordinating to farm deerclops

vs

only 1 person stopping global rain

which do you think pubs will choose

[Antynomity]

Just now, Capybara007 said:

6 people coordinating to farm deerclops

vs

only 1 person stopping global rain

which do you think pubs will choose

if you need 6 people to fight deerclops and to kill glommer twice then I'd say you're not one to talk about balancing, sorry.

[Capybara007]

1 minute ago, yourAnty said:

if you need 6 people to fight deerclops and to kill glommer twice then I'd say you're not one to talk about balancing, sorry.

i dont understand what you invented out of my message but ill be more specific here

farming deerclops like 2 3 or 4 times for eyebrellas is more time consuming than one single wickerbottom stopping overall rain

[Antynomity]

3 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

i dont understand what you invented out of my message but ill be more specific here

farming deerclops like 2 3 or 4 times for eyebrellas is more time consuming than one single wickerbottom stopping overall rain

People will probably do both anyways. And if there's no Wickerbottom on the team?