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I think we need to remove maxwells ability to read wickers books


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29 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

 

Look im sorry that was a little harsh and overexaggerated. Im dealing with a lot and using this forum as an escape. I guess i just used it to vent some frustration. The anger isnt really directed at you. I still dont think you should keep the argument going though 

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2 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

 

That kind of falls into a collective illusion though
Just cause something exist for years does it mean its the right thing?
because times are changing and the game is being updated Each character needs to be reevaluated to see how they match up to eachother

Cultures have this as a big problem  Just cause something existed so long the residents of that culture don't question it.
It takes a big question and one people may not like to really get the idea into peoples minds.
This was how science was back in the day. Because it countered what was the societal norm of religion.

I was playing the game when they added maxwells ability to read her books
and the devs gave the same exact reasoning you did back then and that was maxwell was magical so he could use  her books.
But now things are different Every character is getting refreshed. And, are becoming more unique and stand alone. So much so that no character relies on another to access their full kit.

 

6 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

The burden is on YOU to explain why he shouldn’t be able to do it. Which your argument pretty much boils down to your personal distaste, and balance reasons.

I have explained reasons But you don't believe those are valid reasons.
IN fact The most valid reason is that maxwell is going to be refreshed too.
and in every character update Each character has been made more unique to try and entice players to choose that character more.
And just like how wx is no longer dependent on wickerbottom to get his perks.

maxwell too will follow suit.

do you not see that?

 

 

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Look im sorry that was a little harsh and overexaggerated. Im dealing with a lot and using this forum as an escape. I guess i just used it to vent some frustration. The anger isnt really directed at you. I still dont think you should keep the argument going though 

lol forums are a place for discussion so its okay lol
i feel like now adays its really hard to have a  civil discussion just because people tend to immediately make the other side the villain  mostly due to that what is said goes against what is believed.
I feel more people need to be heard But there is always going to be some form of scrutiny
its so easy to hate another person online and it really has become that.
so much so that people hate just because they feel they have to

like there is no middle ground anymore.  and its crazy to see lol
but no worries.  i know I probably got your blood boiling a bit. 

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Just now, EsaiXD said:

That kind of falls into a collective illusion though
Just cause something exist for years does it mean its the right thing?
because times are changing and the game is being updated Each character needs to be reevaluated to see how they match up to eachother

Cultures have this as a big problem  Just cause something existed so long the residents of that culture don't question it.
It takes a big question and one people may not like to really get the idea into peoples minds.
This was how science was back in the day. Because it countered what was the societal norm of religion.

I was playing the game when they added maxwells ability to read her books
and the devs gave the same exact reasoning you did back then and that was maxwell was magical so he could use  her books.
But now things are different Every character is getting refreshed. And, are becoming more unique and stand alone. So much so that no character relies on another to access their full kit.

 

I have explained reasons But you don't believe those are valid reasons.
IN fact The most valid reason is that maxwell is going to be refreshed too.
and in every character update Each character has been made more unique to try and entice players to choose that character more.
And just like how wx is no longer dependent on wickerbottom to get his perks.

maxwell too will follow suit.

do you not see that?

 

 

You are right that just because something is standard does not mean it should be. But changing a standard requires reasons why the standard is wrong. Especially in this instance where you are literally nerfing a character by changing it. Its a minor nerf imho, but it does exist. 
 

as for maxwell getting his rework. Let us re-evaluate it then. That’s already been suggested multiple times, and i agreed, i just didnt see it as worth mentioning again. Discussing it like his rework is already done is pointless, so lets ignore the rework like it wont ever happen, because for the purposes of this discussion it does not matter yet because we do not know what the consequences of the rework will entail. Maybe maxwell will become the ultimate switch character able to use any characters unique items. I doubt it, but the rework hasnt happened so we cant discount the possibility. 
 

also, the high horse is really grating. “The cultural norms of society and the societal impact of zzzz” this isnt about cultural norms. This is a game, where the opinions of the players drive the games success. If a majority of the players want maxwell to keep his perks, then it DOES factor in. This isnt religion versus science its opinion versus opinion. Its more akin to a religious debate than a scientific one. In other words: drop the pretense of setting yourself up as science going against the unwashed religious masses. You have an opinion. Its no better or more proven than mine. 
 

Also, at the end of the day, it is developer opinion that matters. Even if they agree with you and change it, that wouldn’t make you correct that it needed to happen. Nor would them not changing it validate my opinion. 
 

Finally: no i do not believe your reasons to be good enough to change the character. Your primary motive seems to be your dislike of wickerbottom’s “uniqueness” being tained by maxwell being able to read her books. But to parrot you: what does it matter if maxwell can use wickerbottom’s books. Its not like it will impact your playthrough of wickerbottom, or wendy, or any character other than maxwell, and it will only affect maxwell if you ACTIVELY CHOOSE to switch to wickerbottom to craft her books then switch back. 

 

The problem exists only within your own opinion of it. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with letting ONE character also access another characters abilities if prepared by the other character. 

A balance concern does exist but you havent really been arguing about the balance of it all. So im going to stop pointing out why its not a major concern. we can worry about maxwell being too powerful with wickerbottom’s books when maxwell is as good as wickerbottom without her books, which he arguably isnt.

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Wicker has no personal perks besides T1 science, and as of yet the refresh has not adressed that. And she doesnt have a baked in challenge that makes playing her unique like Warly. The most unique thing to her person is spawning nightmares when reading books at 0 sanity (edit: and sleep immunity). Everything she has is in her books which is fine on its own. 

but when maxwell gets his refresh and undoubtably becomes more powerful since hes indeed very underwhelming now, what will ppl say then? With the bookcase maxwells wont even have to regularly swap back to craft more books like people have to do with warly dishes (not to mention they also need bundling wraps for that purpose if they dont want to be switching even more). Anyone can switch to wicker and setup a tentacle trap etc and go back to wigfrid thats not the problem. 

The issue is if max should be able to do everything wicker does at the same time as his powers which r again undoubtably going to be increased. My suggestion is to limit him to only wicker’s old books like its always been.

Hes already the better caster because he does not spawn nightmares when reading books at 0 sanity lol. Which gives him a lot of free reads without being chased by limitless instant spawning terrorbeaks. Im hoping this is an oversight, ill try to make a forum post about this tomorrow when the devs r back. 
 

people saying “lets wait until max refresh before deciding anything” must live in an alternate universe where gamers love it when u take stuff away from them once theyve gotten a taste for it lmao. 

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I'd like Max to still be able to read the books just because having a bunch of different spells that he can cast is fun and thematic. I particularly have a hard time thinking that he'd pass up a chance to manipulate his world again.

An alergic reaction to the moon book would be great though.

 

Wicker can still be the best at working with the books. There've been some good concepts on that in one of the bookcase topics. I'd like to see something like that; fixing the problem by making her the more appealing option, rather than limiting the options.

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8 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Wicker has no personal perks besides T1 science, and as of yet the refresh has not adressed that. And she doesnt have a baked in challenge that makes playing her unique like Warly. The most unique thing to her person is spawning nightmares when reading books at 0 sanity. Everything she has is in her books which is fine on its own. 

but when maxwell gets his refresh and undoubtably becomes more powerful since hes indeed very underwhelming now, what will ppl say then? With the bookcase maxwells wont even have to regularly swap back to craft more books like people have to do with warly dishes (not to mention they also need bundling wraps for that purpose if they dont want to be switching even more). Anyone can switch to wicker and setup a tentacle trap etc and go back to wigfrid thats not the problem. 

The issue is if max should be able to do everything wicker does at the same time as his powers which r again undoubtably going to be increased. My suggestion is to limit him to only wicker’s old books like its always been.

Hes already the better caster because he does not spawn nightmares when reading books at 0 sanity lol.

people saying “lets wait until max refresh before deciding anything” must live in an alternate universe where gamers love it when u take stuff away from them once theyve gotten a taste for it lmao. 

Wickerbottom is now immune to sleep, which is actually an arguably powerful perk on its own. Considering non autumnal bearger and the celestial champion both utilize sleeping attacks, one of which is the strongest non raid boss, and the other being one of two final bosses. Its not a major major perk on its own but it is a definite perk, and strong enough to outweigh maxwells gatherers for me atm. 
 

I do think maxwells ability to use her books should be re-examined once he is more powerful. But i do not think its considered core to his playstyle to use wickerbottom’s books. Nor do i think it will become a major facet. He is only slightly more suited to using her abilities.

I am not against the idea of some of the stronger books not being usable by maxwell for whatever reason, but i think its a good thematic and synergetic choice to allow him to use the majority of her books at least for now.
 

i imagine that behavior is likely an oversight, but its interesting nonetheless. 
 

I live in the current universe where g4m3r5 as people describe them are mostly a meme (mostly). People typically only get mad when its a complete nerf or loss in function. If its a tradeoff then players getting angry is honestly a rarity. Maxwell will presumably get strong enough to where he wont need wickerbottoms books, and once he’s there we can take almost all of them away.

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12 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Wickerbottom is now immune to sleep

Right that slipped my mind for a sec. Incredibly minor as u said. 

12 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Its not a major major perk on its own but it is a definite perk, and strong enough to outweigh maxwells gatherers for me atm. 

Unreal 

12 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Maxwell will presumably get strong enough to where he wont need wickerbottoms books, and once he’s there we can take almost all of them away.

Good luck with that 

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25 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Hes already the better caster because he does not spawn nightmares when reading books at 0 sanity lol.

I don't think it's meant to stay this way. The devs might have overlooked it. 

28 minutes ago, Ohan said:

people saying “lets wait until max refresh before deciding anything” must live in an alternate universe where gamers love it when u take stuff away from them once theyve gotten a taste for it lmao. 

I don't think that a lot of people are gonna switch from Wicker to Maxwell. People who ask to remove Maxwell's ability to read books play neither Wicker nor Maxwell. 

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• After year 1 Maxwell is kinda obsolete.

• Wurt can do anything Maxwell can do.

• Maxwell does not get to use the  Enlightened Crown like everyone else without losing his shadows

Starting a new world is a toss up for me to continue playing my Main (Maxwell) or switching my main to Wickerbottom casue after year 1 Maxwell is not needed.

 

I main Maxwell and my wife Mains Wendy, she wants to start playing Wickerbottom at the start of worlds so we can be team Old person. these too I feel are one of the best combos (if you can stay alive as Maxwell)

 

IF you want to give Maxwell a down side from reading the books I'll be ok with 5%-10% more sanity lose from reading the books and making Shadow creatures spawn at 0 Sanity. 

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As another Maxwell main here (and Wes, but mainly Max), Maxwell is a character who, in addition to being the former king of the Constant, craves knowledge. Now even though I rarely see a Wickerbottom these days, and even more rarely get to use their books for anything more than novelty, I would not want to see this shared ability removed. There's absolutely no reason to even consider it, you're not making a character more unique in this regard, you are removing teamwork... from a multiplayer game.

 

Not every character needs to evolve into a pseudo-deity as the story of the Constant progresses. Ya'll are getting too spoiled with updates, labeling 'switch' characters, 'obsolete' characters, 'starter' characters and so on and so forth. Convenience is one thing, but why is everyone so hellbent on removing challenge and difficulty? The only thing that is accomplishing is turning the game into work. 

 

I roll my eyes everytime someone joins one of my worlds and asks what character they should be. A great majority of people think they NEED to do this, and I'm not surprised due to the way others condition them to do so. If you want to be a team player, be a team player, if you want to easy mode through your session, then do it. Maxwell's lower health pool is one of the drawbacks that draws me to him, I have to be on my toes and not allow myself to be stupid with a character who is clearly not a newbie to the world. Can I think of some changes to his existing abilities to keep them a bit more relevant? Sure, but his abilities are a convenience to me, not a crutch, not a means to automating the entire game so that I just have to continue to exist, and not something that exists for the sake of existing, but rather a design choice that syncs up with what I want during any given session.

 

You gotta remember, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you HAVE to.

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Bottom line is if Maxwell needs to be able to read Wickers books to feel relevant to y’all well then… that just proves exactly how far the former shadow king has fallen off his throne.

Yes Maxwell shouldn’t be able to read Wickers books but that should come with restoring the former king to atleast part of his own power and glory

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Ive gone back and forth on this take. It makes sense for Maxwell to be able to read books, but at the same time it does make Wicker's abilities less unique. Once you stock up your bookshelves with books you can switch to a character with passive sanity regen and never look back. So yeah, I'm conflicted over this as well.

Perhaps, instead of taking away a perk from Maxwell, we could give Wicker some other unique upsides that will inspire players to play as her after the books are crafted.

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19 hours ago, Jinjetica said:

...I mean... Why CAN maxwell read her books to the exact same effect though???

could be a good basis for how max happened upon the codex? perhaps Maxwell went to a closed off section of the library and found the something he was never meant to find?

A bit off topic but I am excited to see how the two characters are related, and perhaps that's why he is able to read the books to the same degree, perhaps wicker has the discipline and restraint not to read a tome like the codex.

(then again, end is nigh is a thing, lets hope that's a work of fiction or a book about failed or lost civilizations or something)

but on the idea of removing that from maxwell, It was very much an intentional decision to make that a feature, if you are with some one who suffers the effects of simple sanity restoration through sleep, why not have your local shady shadow puppet master read it for you and save you some sanity... at least in the early days I suppose, with some of the new changes to the books (like the tier 2 horticulture) you can just grow plants like potato's and garlic or tomato and ice to make easy sanity dishes, and to be fair 

  • wicker can make drying racks in mass very easily so moving over to jerky is not that bad
  • her favorite food is surf "N" turf so you are encouraged to eat it, and with the new fish summoning book, you get "Fish for days!"
  • tons of new recipes late game, like jelly salad, which may be even easier to get by spawning a bunch of grumbles to kill them for you

  

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3 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

Perhaps, instead of taking away a perk from Maxwell, we could give Wicker some other unique upsides that will inspire players to play as her after the books are crafted.

She is completely immune to all sleep including things like gestalts and has a whopping 2.0x health compared to Maxwell. Not enormous upsides but neither is a passive tam. 

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On 7/17/2022 at 5:37 AM, EsaiXD said:

wicker has                                                                  Maxwell has        
book usage and crafting                                           Usage of all books
Immune to sleep                                                      better resource gathering
has trouble managing sanity                                     Consistent sanity regen  and ability to use tents
Higher max sanity below average health                  Half normal max hp.                          

 

You really tried to make it sound like maxwell's hp is better.

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3 hours ago, _Ellat_ said:

Just make maxwell or any other character be unable to go through her bookcase? I mean it's wickerbottoms books why would they be rummaging through her stuff?

She was a librarian and what do they do with all there books? They rent them out. 

 

Why won't she want to have others read her work.

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