Better Bookcase regen proof of concept

[ADM]

The other day I explained what made me quite concerned regarding the Bookcase auto-repair feature in this "little" topic (and from what I can see on the rest of the forums, I'm not the only one), with that bunch of talk already done, I wanted to demonstrate one of the suggestion that was posted on it, that's pretty rushed but this works out the way I personally imagine it to be like :

Here's what we see :

• The books no longer repair by themselves
• There's a new "craft" exclusive to the station, Reading Material
• Upon building, the Bookcase will receive a buff for 4mins, repairing the books within over time, at a generous rate
  • This could really be tuned in hundreds of different ways
• It also restores 20 sanity immediately, I mean, she surely enjoy a moment of her work at some point ?
• Only Wickerbottom has access to this craft

 

Just that would be such an improvement imo, the reasons aren't just to require the presence of a Wickerbottom to assure the usage of book without her (yet this solution solves that too), but also to put aside that double-edged-ultra-sharp piece of paper that this waiting of the current Bookcase thing is. Because on one hand having 20 books (assuming you've got only one Bookcase) to repair from fin air is too me just too bland of a mechanism in the case of Wicker's refresh, it removes a great fragment of the crafting principles she could have since most of the time I want to sink certain resources these books require... you realise I'm restraining myself from saying that it is "op", because it isn't that much, there'd be better words to describe it.
On the other hand, as it is, waiting isn't fun. If I wanted to have my book repaired I'd rather have solutions closer to a sewing kit than a Crock Pot that is dozen times slower where the only ingredients are what you get back. That's really just that, I would love to see alternatives, not necessarily what I suggest but I'm fairly sure there can only be improvements on this aspect of the rework. So yeah that's about it.

[Cheggf]

I don't care at all about that silly swapping to a harder character for no reason nonsense but am fully on board with this change just because I don't like how it repairs the hooks for free. It's so uninteractive. 

[xhyom]

I partially agree (But a part of me is pretty comfortable with the way it currently works), it's just that it seems that reeds are becoming a curse for her lol

Release the librarian from swampy hell

[ADM]

7 minutes ago, xhyom said:

I partially agree (But a part of me is pretty comfortable with the way it currently works), it's just that it seems that reeds are becoming a curse for her lol

Release the librarian from swampy hell

In that other topic from the top, I was thinking maybe she could always find an extra reeds in tumbleweed as a bonus to eventually untie her crafts from being so swampy, also luckily Monkeytails are a thing now if that's of any help

But yeah I can agree it's papyrus over papyrus with her, which is fine to me, but maybe if such a thing was added it could require something different (like long ago I was looking for Skittersquid Ink but for map drawing purposes, now would be sad if it was exclusive to only a character craft, a reason why I was thinking to use Nightmare Fuel as ink here)

[HowlVoid]

Cost seems steep for what it repairs, and I think it makes it where it's more beneficial to make certain books than farm for nightmare fuel/birds. At some point it seems you're crafting books to repair books to craft books. As I've said before, it's merely more hoops the player has to jump through to achieve the same result. 

Also, doesn't requiring papyrus defeats the purpose the bookcase is trying to accomplish? Aka make Wickerbottom less grind-y and hog less reeds? Other characters like Wurt and Wormwood need lots of reeds too.

If it's to be made more interactive it makes more sense to have the bookcase hands on. As in, Wicker is given an interaction where she manually repairs the books. But that would require the player to be afk so probably not a good idea.

The only way I see this being better is if it's detached from the bookcase entirely. Allowing wicker to repair books on the go would make the whole process make more sense to me. This is because the book repair kits would take up a single slot, while simultaneously holding the value of multiple reads of the same book.

Spoiler

Meaning the item not only saves inventory slots, it also means less books need to be crafted (of the same book) to get more uses of the same effect per sitting without requiring multiple copies of the same book (so it's a better trade off aka reeds for repair/reeds for multiple books). Though then that would make the item less cost effective by only repairing one book at a time. Which  can be solved by allowing one craft make multiples of the book repair kits.

Anyways, I think Klei is leaning more towards simple in this case. Sometimes simple is good.

[Masterblaster38]

Oh my god not the "so wickerbottom doesn't become a swap character" I like the idea a little but do do everything for this, if you think like that everyone is a swap character, worlfgang for bosses, wickerbottom for farms.

It is a part of the Game you aren't obligated to use, you aren't required to use It at any moment in the game It is also late game, not something you can do early game.

[Ohan]

Thanks for making this concept! Its a tricky thing to implement cuz it can be done in so many ways and there r so many variables. 

if an upkeep cost were to be attached to the repair then there definitely should be a way to toggle it when u want to so the repair materials arent wasted. Or the bookcase needs to be smart enough not to keep “burning” the repair fuel/timer when all books are 100% or the bookcase is empty..

and then theres the question of how the “fuel” would degrade in relation to the number of books. Would it be burned as fast with 2 books as with 20 books? In that case it would feel like ur wasting the repair materials if the bookcase is not full. Etcetc

ive said it before i definitely prefer active maintenance by the player over free repair but after thinking about it more i can see how it could be tricky to figure out when slow 24/7 passive repair is so simple and already accomplishes the same job without encountering any problems.. perhaps klei could figure out how to do it in a satisfying way though if its something they want to change. 

[Jinjetica]

Actually...as a wurt main...I base INSIDE the swamp...and While I need reeds, I need an awful lot more wood and fishes and TENTACLE SPOTS than reeds, besides, Wurt can actually read her stories for sanity changes.... And wurt players can gather reeds much more safely than anyone else in the game, to the point of having surplus or investing in poultice! But I agree with pretty much everything else you say. It IS really expensive to implement this new mechanic, it overcomplicates everything, and it would be better as an on the go item... which defeats the entire point of the bookshelf anyway? a little?

this wouldn't stop Wicker from being a swap character for me, I want the bookshelf, and the books for wurt to have a nice little library, you can't change my mind unless she actually becomes fun to play as!

[ADM]

16 minutes ago, Masterblaster38 said:

Oh my god not the "so wickerbottom doesn't become a swap character" I like the idea a little but do do everything for this, if you think like that everyone is a swap character, worlfgang for bosses, wickerbottom for farms.

It is a part of the Game you aren't obligated to use, you aren't required to use It at any moment in the game It is also late game, not something you can do early game.

Don't know what's so upsetting but nobody learned anything from that, thank you.  You're free to do whatever you fancy like anyone when it comes to play someone different after a while, in addition that I never brought the pick and swap topic on the discussion here it's barely something I recognize since I exclusively play multiplayer so I'm more under playing a role for my group than just guggling between things now and then if everybody does it already, however I do say that the character plays a part of itself and that to me it's a boring easy solution, I prefer my character perks and gameplay more thoughtful.

55 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Cost seems steep for what it repairs, and I think it makes it where it's more beneficial to make certain books than farm for nightmare fuel/birds. At some point it seems you're crafting books to repair books to craft books. As I've said before, it's merely more hoops the player has to jump through to achieve the same result. 

Also, doesn't requiring papyrus defeats the purpose the bookcase is trying to accomplish? Aka make Wickerbottom less grind-y and hog less reeds? Other characters like Wurt and Wormwood need lots of reeds too.

It's really just a concept, imagine it tuned cost wise and speed to your liking and you can probably tell where repairing 20 books at the same time gets better than recrafting new ones when you already have enough, right ? That's just something I've done in about 30min don't expect it to be the perfect decision in every points

[Notecja]

I love that idea. In so many ways is better than original concept and solves many concerns of other forumites.

♡ Recipe can be tweaked to be cheaper - and works so much faster than waiting amd waiting. 

♡ Maxwell don't need to be "illiterate" as some people suggested - books are limited without Wickerbottom

♡ Might allow other ideas, like to allow not only Wurt and Maxwell (like you know, infinite afk books, while hard to call op, still could make free insanity station) read books for funny interactions

[goatt]

I love the idea.

 

I'll add something regarding tuning:

- under current numbers, 4 min can require 8% durability. If the bookshelf is fully stocked with 20 books, that's 160%, or 3.2 papyrus with whatever other ingredients.

- the trade is 1 pencil, 1 papyrus, 4 nfuel for 3.2 papyrus plus other stuff, which is ok.

- the trade is bad if the shelf is half occupied or less. Half occupied: 1 pencil, 1 papyrus, 4 nfuel trade for 1.6 papyrus and other ingredients..

 

So I suggest the repair kits be buffed by a lot, or change it from time-based to durability-based.

[MondayNight]

Then shouldn't Winona Catapults need a Winona crafting/repairing their taken-damage too? No more passive auto-regen. We can go further and demand them being exclusively-operated by Winona as well?! (If a Winona isn't in close proximity, they don't function; like Big Bernie is behaving for insane Willows) Same consistency. If not, current Bookcase auto-repair mechanic is fine as is.

[finn from human]

I'm not a fan of this at all. Maintenance is never fun in DST, just look at the state of mushroom lights without the Celestial Champion. All this does is add an extra step of maintenance and resource cost to what is currently a simple and convenient character. Winona doesn't have to tune up her catapults, Wanda doesn't have to wind her clocks, Wurt doesn't have to patch up the leaks in her merm houses, etc. It's okay sometimes for characters to be simple and convenient.

[ADM]

1 minute ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Then shouldn't Winona Catapults need a Winona crafting/repairing their taken-damage too? No more passive auto-regen. We can go further and demand them being exclusively-operated by Winona as well?! (If a Winona isn't in close proximity, they don't function; like Big Bernie is behaving for insane Willows) Same consistency. If not, current Bookcase auto-repair mechanic is fine as is.

It's irrational comparing things aggressively like that, all things should be handled case by case as you can have every character on a similar level without necessary sharing the same restriction mechanism of their different items and buildings, Warly has his own personal Crock Pot, Walter has tents for everyone. Obviously Winona falls to one that makes the more sense of it... and both scenarios can be applied differently on the same character based on which of their perk we talk about and you seem to know well enough.

8 minutes ago, meow meow meow said:

I'm not a fan of this at all. Maintenance is never fun in DST, just look at the state of mushroom lights without the Celestial Champion. All this does is add an extra step of maintenance and resource cost to what is currently a simple and convenient character. Winona doesn't have to tune up her catapults, Wanda doesn't have to wind her clocks, Wurt doesn't have to patch up the leaks in her merm houses, etc. It's okay sometimes for characters to be simple and convenient.

A bit similar here but at least you make sense reminding it despite I'm well aware none of those example would fit the game if that's just for the sake of doing it. But there are proper and bad maintenances, having just the free waiting method isn't my go for, you'd have to make stocks of her books in many tons to reuse the same with a waiting session in the middle, or make more and do actually break them. What I suggest is a sort of sewing kit kind of thing but crock-potified if you can picture the comparison. I think I can accept the two methods but I prefer to handle the repairing when it's the only option if that can make it faster, or at least invite multiple alternatives.

[MondayNight]

3 hours ago, ADM said:

It's irrational comparing things aggressively like that, all things should be handled case by case as you can have every character on a similar level without necessary sharing the same restriction mechanism of their different items and buildings, Warly has his own personal Crock Pot, Walter has tents for everyone. Obviously Winona falls to one that makes the more sense of it... and both scenarios can be applied differently on the same character based on which of their perk we talk about and you seem to know well enough.

Au contraire, is very rational and not aggressive at all - I reckons is same scenario: a structure that auto-operates, and has a passive regen attached to it. Only difference is subjective interpretation (& initial preferences, of course). More-so, the material cost you propose for player-input/action pretty much invalidates the repairing process (repairs too-a-small rate), making it redundant as you can use that Papyrus and make a new book altogether, 100% in durability - no further Nightmare Fuel, Charcoal or Black Feathers required for rather subpar repairing percentage.

[ADM]

6 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Au contraire, is very rational and not aggressive at all - I reckons is same scenario: a structure that auto-operates, and has a passive regen attached to it. Only difference is subjective interpretation. More-so, the material cost you propose for player-input/action pretty much invalidates the repairing process (repairs too-a-small rate), making it redundant as you can use that Papyrus and make a new book altogether, 100% in durability, no further Nightmare Fuel, Charcoal or Black Feathers required for rather subpar repairing percentage.

Well if you've had said that in the first place that would have made more sense then. Just really everything that was shown from that video can be changed, it would repair 1-5 percent or as much as you can think per second or so if that makes it better, and I do think that yeah the showcase here was slow, I just didn't put any time on tuning it right and that was disclosed, only a concept, same goes for items used, but I don't know how you could make me think that putting a single piece of papyrus instead of X more when comparing all the material 20 books would be worth making isn't a greater deal if that repairs all your books entirely from it (you could even think that the repair is long enough that you could replace books while it's still active).

[Primalflower]

I hope this sort of thing doesnt get implemented, it would strictly be less fun for me.

[Notecja]

3 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I hope this sort of thing doesnt get implemented, it would strictly be less fun for me.

Would be less fun than idle waiting?

[Nettalie]

I actually really like this idea.

Normally I'd be opposed to this because of the feather pen and papyrus, but those are not too bad to get for her. Especially since you can repair the books you'd use to get them pretty quickly with this. That and the sheer number of books being restored could probably make this pretty nice.

Though I can also see how someone would not like this because it's more maintainance [even if it is faster].

Also could be weird in making her books one time crafts, which is always a weird balancing act to consider.

[Primalflower]

5 minutes ago, Notecja said:

Would be less fun than idle waiting?

I do not spend my time as wickerbottom idling near the book case to get it to repair faster, i simply put the books in and go on with my dont starve day. If this were to be implemented or something equivalent, then i would get much less use out of books, and have to spend much more time either crafting more books or crafting more repairing sessions. I wouldn't enjoy it and it gives me very sad feelings that how the book case works now is kind of in jeopardy.

[Notecja]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I do not spend my time as wickerbottom idling near the book case to get it to repair faster, i simply put the books in and go on with my dont starve day. If this were to be implemented or something equivalent, then i would get much less use out of books, and have to spend much more time either crafting more books or crafting more repairing sessions. I wouldn't enjoy it and it gives me very sad feelings that how the book case works now is kind of in jeopardy.

even if books will be repaired much faster? So you dont need multiply bookcases and multiply books, just one set, fix and ready to go again? The numbers are not tweaked, as well it could be as fast as sewing kit. Or just like speed of cooking some jam? Even recipe could be cheaper.

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, Notecja said:

even if books will be repaired much faster? So you dont need multiply bookcases and multiply books, just one set, fix and ready to go again? The numbers are not tweaked, as well it could be as fast as sewing kit. Or just like speed of cooking some jam? Even recipe could be cheaper.

Yeah even if it was instant it would be worse. If the price was fair it would be worse because it’s something else i now have to actively handle rather letting it be a passive gain

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Notecja said:

even if books will be repaired much faster? So you dont need multiply bookcases and multiply books, just one set, fix and ready to go again? The numbers are not tweaked, as well it could be as fast as sewing kit. Or just like speed of cooking some jam?

This is moving the goalpost and not what was described by the post above. Either way,  I would like it if the passive regeneration stayed, i would not like it if that passive regeneration was replaced with active maintenance 

[Notecja]

9 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

This is moving the goalpost and not what was described by the post above. Either way,  I would like it if the passive regeneration stayed, i would not like it if that passive regeneration was replaced with active maintenance 

Imo the problem is, the passive one is just... free. Totally free minus cost of bookshelf. And anything else in game you need to refuel or fix, or to have extremely expensive to have it free. Wickerbottom books itself are like cheat codes (don't misunderstood me here, I don't have anything against them), so you kinda get infinite cheat codes without any real maintaining.

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, Notecja said:

Imo the problem is, the passive one is just... free. Totally free minus cost of bookshelf. And anything else in game you need to refuel or fix, or to have extremely expensive to have it free. Wickerbottom books itself are like cheat codes (don't misunderstood me here, I don't have anything against them), so you kinda get infinite cheat codes without any real maintaining.

The books are relatively cheap to begin with, their price can go up, the regen rate can be lowered, there are alternatives that dont kill me more on papyrus and hassle me endlessly to repair a three use book.