Pirate Raids Are Way Overtuned

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

I think having them scale with the player like that would be nice. I don't have any particular feelings towards a cooldown. I think killing the pirates is way too difficult, especially for characters with a smaller health pool, I think having 1 powder monkey + 1 prime mate is still going to rip chunks out of a player but it'd be fair enough.

This would kill raids for me to be honest I feel like a better idea would be to limit the amount of monkeys that board your boat at a time increasing the limit per player/non monkey mob then more will board as you kill them.

[HowlVoid]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This would kill raids for me to be honest I feel like a better idea would be to limit the amount of monkeys that board your boat at a time increasing the limit per player/non monkey mob then more will board as you kill them.

Agreed, having them board in waves fixes the problem for me. 

Then we can get a giant monkey pirate ship boss with TONS of monkeys. The ship is full of chest with gems, weapons, and armor! Dang, that would be awesome. 

[chaosmonkey]

19 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I understood, and i dont think it would help much, it would just push the problem further back.

If this is true, you should have no problem with Klei making the first hound wave 6 hounds plus a varglet. In reality, having raids scale with world age allows you to defeat them early with the gear you showcased and be prepared for larger raids when the world is older.

19 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I think it shouldnt be expected of you to have to have these weapons and armor on you at all times on the ocean

Some things in this game are simply harder than others and require more preparation. For instance, raiding the ruins requires quite a bit more preparation than killing spiders on the surface. The ruins are opt-in, just like the ocean. Should the ruins be nerfed because they require you to be prepared? Absolutely not. Should the raids be nerfed because you don't want to be prepared? Absolutely not. There are valid reasons to nerf the raids, but not wanting to be adequately prepared is not.

Besides, you always have the option to find and avoid that part of the ocean.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

17 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I understood, and i dont think it would help much, it would just push the problem further back. I think it shouldnt be expected of you to have to have these weapons and armor on you at all times on the ocean,  it still wouldnt feel really good, especially if they come during the night.

remove deerclops then. I think it shouldnt to be expected of you to have a better weapon than an axe and better armor than a grass suit on you at all time

lmao

17 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

The other person was referring to the pan flute you get a glommer, and thats the one im acknowledging, because its doesnt require magic, i dont think magic should be necessary either. I think its simply not great to rely on stunning enemies entirely to get by, and i think thats compounded when its such a limited resource. Realistically, theres going to be more than one group of players that want to boat seperately to eachother in a lot of circumstances in this video game.

chopping 4 trees+4 rabbits+6 silk, what an herculean task is having access to magic

17 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

You are. What you've said before describes "if you dont want to deal with raids, dont play this character". Which is exclusionary. It simply is. 

57 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

If someone has problems with raids shouldnt be playing some of these characters

why you lie? do you really wanna be right so they nerf them... same with your video

17 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

My gameplay was to showcase how the equipment featured

your videoshowcase a very bad performance which naturally, in this and other games, leads to death

17 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

which is honestly high end for what you would be expecting from jumping onto the ocean in the first few days of the world, is even then not even really close to good enough, and again, it shouldnt be expected to have this kind of gear all of the time, and to have wilson health pool.

basically you are saying that this game should be animal crossing because the devs cant expect us to have a cheap weapon and armor. What is next? removing hunger meter so we dont have to bring food with us all the time?

 

i already shared my opinion on why hard nerfing them is really a bad idea. Arguing with you is pointless because i dont want to convince you but klei and less knowing that we have such different vision of the game and gameplay

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

Agreed, have them board in waves fixes the problem for me. 

Then we can get a giants monkey pirate ship boss with TONS of monkeys. The ship is full of chest with gems, weapons, and armor! Dang, that would be awesome. 

I love this idea so much but this also made me realize something rather than using a reskined version of the player's ship why don't we just make their ship bigger so kitting us easier as well? It's not like their ship needs to be able to properly navigate the sea since it despawns.

[ShadowDuelist]

48 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

 

Absolutely ridiculous. This shouldn't be how it is.

This is a horrible example, if you do the same thing to fight basically any group of mobs including hounds or spiders you will also die. That's just not how you fight any group of enemies in DST.

[lowercase skye]

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

basically you are saying that this game should be animal crossing because the devs cant expect us to have a cheap weapon and armor. What is next? removing hunger meter so we dont have to bring food with us all the time?

Must admit it is the most tiring thing in the world to, for the entire half a decade I have been in this community, see any opinion about some content being too demanding get deflected with "you want club penguin? you want animal crossing? you want stardew valley?" Like, come on. Its a real jerk move to deflect someone having issue with the way one very specific piece of content is balanced by going "oh you just want the game to be easy baby mode? you want baby bottle? you want luigi to play for you?"

I think at the moment pirate raids conflict with the fast and loose gameplay that boating has always rewarded up to this point, and I think it's not at all unreasonable to want new content tuned so that it doesn't make that gameplay way way harder.

[Primalflower]

5 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

If this is true, you should have no problem with Klei making the first hound wave 6 hounds plus a vargle

Honestly, i dont enjoy hound waves either...!! It never feels good to be caught without fighting implements far from base and to just kind of have to chase them off somewhere. Its common and usual for me and the people whom i play with to turn off hounds early into a world, because its not fun to deal with them. The same tends to go for seasonal giants

8 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

Some things in this game are simply harder than others and require more preparation. For instance, raiding the ruins requires quite a bit more preparation than killing spiders on the surface. The ruins are opt-in, just like the ocean. Should the ruins be nerfed because they require you to be prepared? Absolutely not. Should the raids be nerfed because you don't want to be prepared? Absolutely not. There are valid reasons to nerf the raids, but not wanting to be adequately prepared is not

Im glad you mentioned the ruins, because i was going to mention them, in that, the oceans arent the ruins! no threat in the ocean is like the pirate raids, nothing else there requires you to prepare in the same way you do for the raids, and it doesnt feel good. 

 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

Honestly, i dont enjoy hound waves either...!! It never feels good to be caught without fighting implements far from base and to just kind of have to chase them off somewhere. Its common and usual for me and the people whom i play with to turn off hounds early into a world, because its not fun to deal with them. The same tends to go for seasonal giants

Im glad you mentioned the ruins, because i was going to mention them, in that, the oceans arent the ruins! no threat in the ocean is like the pirate raids, nothing else there requires you to prepare in the same way you do for the raids, and it doesnt feel good. 

 

The same could be said for the caves tho outside of the ruins there's no major threats.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, meow meow meow said:

Must admit it is the most tiring thing in the world to, for the entire half a decade I have been in this community, see any opinion about some content being too demanding get deflected with "you want club penguin? you want animal crossing? you want stardew valley?" Like, come on. Its a real jerk move to deflect someone having issue with the way one very specific piece of content is balanced by going "oh you just want the game to be easy baby mode? you want baby bottle? you want luigi to play for you?"

I think at the moment pirate raids conflict with the fast and loose gameplay that boating has always rewarded up to this point, and I think it's not at all unreasonable to want new content tuned so that it doesn't make that gameplay way way harder.

if having a weapon and armor on you shouldnt be expected in a game that even throw you enemy waves isnt suggesting to change the game cathegory idk what it is. Im not saying that thing about animal crossing because of skill or experience or whatever but for denying a real important part of the game. The sea has enemies and you need armor and weapon, period

is like saying that super mario shouldnt expect from you to press A when there is a cliff, that would make it a walk simulator but im not atacking walking simulator neither the difficulties behind jumping but the non sense of someone suggesting to change the game because they wanna play other kind of games

take it as you want but what you said arent my words

pd. i think animal crossing is fun but isnt dst like dst isnt super mario and super mario isnt FF. Clear?

8 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

Honestly, i dont enjoy hound waves either...!! It never feels good to be caught without fighting implements far from base and to just kind of have to chase them off somewhere. Its common and usual for me and the people whom i play with to turn off hounds early into a world, because its not fun to deal with them. The same tends to go for seasonal giants

see? is okey if this person dont like certain game mechanics but the game has them like super mario has jumping mechanics

is like if i go to a super mario forum and start talking how i hate needing to jump

[Primalflower]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The same could be said for the caves tho outside of the ruins there's no major threats.

There are a lot of differences here that could be stated and make the situation very different, but the one i immediately think of is like, it is very unusual for you to have to trek through the ruins to make it out the other side and to the rest of the caves. Contrast this to the ocean where a corner of the ocean being sectioned off makes a lot of things much harder and more dragged on, not to mention the constant possibility (that has happened to me twice in a row before...!) that sunken treasures will spawn incredibly close to the moon quay.

[Mysterious box]

43 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

There are a lot of differences here that could be stated and make the situation very different, but the one i immediately think of is like, it is very unusual for you to have to trek through the ruins to make it out the other side and to the rest of the caves. Contrast this to the ocean where a corner of the ocean being sectioned off makes a lot of things much harder and more dragged on, not to mention the constant possibility (that has happened to me twice in a row before...!) that sunken treasures will spawn incredibly close to the moon quay.

You don't have to go out to sea tho and even then it's a small portion of the entire sea that they do spawn.

[Mike23Ua]

Only thing I have to say about this is when people say they want more uncompromising features- this isn’t exactly what they had in mind.

DS/DST isn’t supposed to be the most difficult game ever, and there are ways to make the game more uncompromising beyond just seemingly endless pirate raids full of mobs in large numbers..

Some examples of how to make the game PASSIVELY more Uncompromising would be to let nearby hungry animals get into and eat the players farming crops- Everyone’s heard the story of Peter Rabbit right? Rabbits EAT your Garden Veggies.. so I can’t help but think: why do the ones in the game ignore my Veggies but yet: Foolishly run after a food baited Grass Trap?

Meanwhile: Klei probably heard all the complaints about the game not being uncompromising enough so they wanted to add harder and harder content to challenge the player.

Theres such a thing though as a skill cap- not everyone wants to be challenged at every turn, They could Over-Haul Autumn & Summer weather seasons to have more engaging/challenging gameplay.. 

As someone who plays this game 95% of the time Alone- I have not EVER been a fan of the Boating Content… I hate how I’m stuck on this small wooden platform while swarms of mobs board onto it and I have nowhere to run/dodge and Kit them. To make that situation that much more worse… many of those boat boarding mobs Stun-Lock you into place in ADDITION to being forced to combat them on a tiny platform with little room to avoid their hits.

Klei should instantaneously recognize that they have something very very OFF about their game content when I would willingly want to make Dark Swords exclusively just to deal with swarms of Cookie Cutters. Cookie Cutters which after being killed, Respawn in less then about 90 seconds.

They suffer the same problem as Monkey Pirate Raids- it’s too much for the AVERAGE solo player to care to deal with..

So in conclusion to my long rant of a post- Klei devs should probably gather their own children or at the least their intended audience group up and observe them playing their game, Klei are Developers and I get that, some of these developers even out right admit that they suck at their own game (and there’s absolutely no shame in that…) The Problem however is that as DEVELOPERS they may not know exactly how fun/unfun certain parts of their game are… 

I guess that’s why we have “Betas” but when a feature doesn’t feel fair or fun, and a significant amount of players opt to avoid engaging with it or toggling it off perhaps it’s time to revisit that content and look into WHY people aren’t enjoying it.

For me as an Xbox player I can not fight a single Pigmen by himself without getting hit several times by it.. and why? Because the whole intended way of dodging it’s attack and immediately hitting it afterward has never been possible for me- and in fact I have instead resorted to just wearing armor and tanking its hits so I can actually hit it in time.

This sounds exactly like PRIME MATE only Prime Mate is going to be WORSE because I’m stuck on a tiny platform with no room to avoid its punches, AND if I kill enough of them (10 I think??) I get punished and turn into Wonkey?

Its too much- and that’s coming from ME a guy who genuinely enjoys a good (but also fair) challenge.

 

[Mysterious box]

59 minutes ago, meow meow meow said:

Must admit it is the most tiring thing in the world to, for the entire half a decade I have been in this community, see any opinion about some content being too demanding get deflected with "you want club penguin? you want animal crossing? you want stardew valley?" Like, come on. Its a real jerk move to deflect someone having issue with the way one very specific piece of content is balanced by going "oh you just want the game to be easy baby mode? you want baby bottle? you want luigi to play for you?"

I think at the moment pirate raids conflict with the fast and loose gameplay that boating has always rewarded up to this point, and I think it's not at all unreasonable to want new content tuned so that it doesn't make that gameplay way way harder.

My issue here is this community equally treats people who are looking for harder content like this "you want harder content go play x game" or "just set everything to lots there's your challenge."  This game is supposed to be a survival game but it really isn't treated like it outside of afew bosses, a mob, and seasonal woes everything happens on your terms despite the constant being supposedly so out to kill us.

Before these raids ocean content is where people went to relax without having to worry about the threat of hound waves or seasonal bosses since the sea before this update was the most tame area of them all. The reason I'm so worried about this update is because it feels like it's going to be butchered to be accessible to people who refuse to adapt between people asking for curse nerfs and raid nerfs honestly I genuinely believe these monkeys were intended to raid the entirety of the ocean but it was reconsidered due to it possibly not being received well by the more casual playerbase.

[. . .]

I think it's not too bad. The only thing I would change is make the monkeys have 100 HP and deal less damage, and their rowing force for their boat is weaker so they can't catch up to the player's boat as fast.

I'd also probably make it so when monkeys are in a group the more of them their are then more of the monkeys will do a "taunt" animation like how hounds do a bark to give the player a little more breathing room instead of constantly being attacked by all of them every second.

Cannons should also be made a lot more powerful then if you use it on the pirate monkeys it sinks their ship in 2-3 hits.

[lowercase skye]

13 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The reason I'm so worried about this update is because it feels like it's going to be butchered to be accessible to people who refuse to adapt between people asking for curse nerfs and raid nerfs honestly I genuinely believe these monkeys were intended to raid the entirety of the ocean but it was reconsidered due to it possibly not being received well by the more casual playerbase.

What do you mean by "casual playerbase"? Cause again I have been actively playing this game for 5 years and I think the raids are unreasonable to deal with. Doesn't help anyone to split up the playerbase of a game between "casuals" and "the REAL players"

[Primalflower]

27 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You don't have to go out to sea tho and even then it's a small portion of the entire sea that they do spawn.

You don't have to farm either. But its fun gameplay. I could say it in a more elaborate way but really thats the crux of it. The ocean is fun, so I indulge in it a lot.

As far as I've been told and experienced, the 25% of the map thing is accurate. With how the ocean works, That really isn't a small portion.

[Capybara007]

2 hours ago, Primalflower said:

My gameplay was to showcase how the equipment featured, which is honestly high end for what you would be expecting from jumping onto the ocean in the first few days of the world, is even then not even really close to good enough, and again, it shouldnt be expected to have this kind of gear all of the time, and to have wilson health pool.

Though at least you couldve just dodged the prime ape

[Mysterious box]

22 minutes ago, meow meow meow said:

What do you mean by "casual playerbase"? Cause again I have been actively playing this game for 5 years and I think the raids are unreasonable to deal with. Doesn't help anyone to split up the playerbase of a game between "casuals" and "the REAL players"

The amount of years you play a game isn't what makes someone a casual player or not simply put we have many tools to fight things off in dst not just character perks either I'm not trying to split the player base but I don't think players who want more engaging content should be left behind either.

20 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

You don't have to farm either. But its fun gameplay. I could say it in a more elaborate way but really thats the crux of it. The ocean is fun, so I indulge in it a lot.

You don't have to go to the ruins but many like the gear, you don't have to kill bee queen but her drops are highly sought after, I could go on and on there's plenty of content people won't see due to skill level, not liking the methods of obtaining things, or even just being afraid of venturing outside of their safe zone would you say it'd be unfair for another person to say these areas should also to nerfed?

20 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

As far as I've been told and experienced, the 25% of the map thing is accurate. With how the ocean works, That really isn't a small portion.

This is larger than I'd heard but I'd still stand by it being reasonable. I still personally believe their attacks should cover the whole sea albeit less often.

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue here is this community equally treats people who are looking for harder content like this "you want harder content go play x game" or "just set everything to lots there's your challenge."  This game is supposed to be a survival game but it really isn't treated like it outside of afew bosses, a mob, and seasonal woes everything happens on your terms despite the constant being supposedly so out to kill us.

Before these raids ocean content is where people went to relax without having to worry about the threat of hound waves or seasonal bosses since the sea before this update was the most tame area of them all. The reason I'm so worried about this update is because it feels like it's going to be butchered to be accessible to people who refuse to adapt between people asking for curse nerfs and raid nerfs honestly I genuinely believe these monkeys were intended to raid the entirety of the ocean but it was reconsidered due to it possibly not being received well by the more casual playerbase.

Thing about that is- Klei has all the tools in the world (without mods I may add..) to make the game as accessible to the player as the player feels comfortable with..

Being able to adjust minor things in world Gen settings such as: How many monkey per pirate raid.. if killing them can curse you at all (Aka turning Moon Quay Queen On/Off)

Please don’t Overlook World Settings just because they aren’t up to par with how they could be..

Next year is Year of the Snake right? What if Klei adds snake mobs into the game that when they bite the player.. inflicts poison DoT until you find a cure like the Shipwrecked or Hamlet DLC? And.. What if there was a World Gen toggle that lets you choose if snakes will inflict poison DoT or if they’d technically just be a cleverly reskinned spider?

Heres the biggest problem DST suffers- Balance.. 

What is the “Intended difficulty level?” And more importantly… “how many players is that difficulty intended for?”

With DST being a Multiplayer game, Klei obviously designs things around having others to play with.. but then you got to ask- how fair is that for the solo player?

When I play DS/Shipwrecked or Hamlet those are single player experiences designed and intended to be conquered by a solo player.. but when you play DST there’s certain content you look at and you think maybe this is unfair if your playing alone..?

then you have to ask the question of “what should the Standard Experience be like before the player needs to start messing with world Gen settings to toggle more/less on/off gameplay features?”

Its a nasty balancing act

Personally if you ask me I like how ruthlessly aggressive Wavey Jones was BEFORE his first nerf, however Klei felt this was way too punishing and Nerfed the heck out of it… which makes me ask the question of-

“Why can’t we have both??” Why if there are world settings to toggle more/less on/off near about every aspect of the game…. Why do those settings go overlooked and underutilized?

Wavey Easy, Wavey Standard, Wavey Uncompromising.

Boom- we just got Pre-Nerf reckless Wavey, AND the After Nerf more forgiving version at the same time.

Im using Wavey as my example because this was truly brutal content in its first release that was later Nerfed to the point of being mostly a non-threat.

I don’t want to see the same thing happen to pirate raids.. but at the exact same time: I don’t want it to annoy me to the point toggle it completely off either.

Balance… and in a game like DST, Where one of the games own description quotes reads as “Your World,Your Rules”

Maybe it’s time we put balance into the hands of the players??

Because Klei is NEVER going to be able to satisfy both the casuals and the players wanting harder content at the exact same time.

Just look at the MOON STORM as an example: this is a FORCED event that more skilled players can trigger to make the game harder on people who in all honesty? Probably was not prepared for it… yet Klei allowed the experienced players to trigger even more difficulty for the casuals??

It is a baffling design choice to me.. and yes I get that they wanted to add more End game content for the late game players… that part I fully understand- the part I DO NOT Understand however: Is why they allowed players who were prepared for this content… to be able to set said content off on people who were struggling to stay alive as it was?

Eye/Twins of Terror anyone???? Great if your ready for it, not so great if your that fresh starting Wilson trying to learn the game..

Where Klei has gone horribly horribly wrong and I hope someday they rectify is that in OTHER GAMES such as Minecraft or Portal Knights, the players need to build a portal and enter into a harder area of the game by their own choice.. rather than allowing a player to trigger some world altering event that makes the starting area of the game harder.

Klei really needs to at this point break DST up into an Archipelago.. where the starting area remains beginner friendly, but should the player CHOOSE- they can bust open and explore sinkholes for harder content, Sail to a more harsh biome, build a Teleportato and leave the current world into new game +

literally anything that prevents the more experienced players from being able to make things that much worse on those who are just starting out.

I have to be forgiving on Klei because obviously dst is their first multiplayer offering of its kind so they are bound to make mistakes… I just hope they’re able to fix those mistakes once they are made.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Thing about that is- Klei has all the tools in the world (without mods I may add..) to make the game as accessible to the player as the player feels comfortable with..

They already have it's called turning off content you don't like

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

if killing them can curse you at all

 

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

What if there was a World Gen toggle that lets you choose if snakes will inflict poison DoT or if they’d technically just be a cleverly reskinned spider?

This should never be a thing it's like adding a setting for deerclopes to not freeze for it's attacks or even to just remove all boss mechanics may as well add console commands to console and start with all recipes unlocked as well.

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Please don’t Overlook World Settings just because they aren’t up to par with how they could be..

They're fine as is they should never be considered as a difficulty slider however.

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Heres the biggest problem DST suffers- Balance.. 

What is the “Intended difficulty level?” And more importantly… “how many players is that difficulty intended for?”

With DST being a Multiplayer game, Klei obviously designs things around having others to play with.. but then you got to ask- how fair is that for the solo player?

When I play DS/Shipwrecked or Hamlet those are single player experiences designed and intended to be conquered by a solo player.. but when you play DST there’s certain content you look at and you think maybe this is unfair if your playing alone..?

The game gives multiple ways to ease situations when not in a group such as gunpowder, traps, and followers to name a few on top of the game mostly just waiting for you to engage with content.

 

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Just look at the MOON STORM as an example: this is a FORCED event that more skilled players can trigger to make the game harder on people who in all honesty? Probably was not prepared for it… yet Klei allowed the experienced players to trigger even more difficulty for the casuals??

If a casual player stayed around long enough for this to occur and didn't like it I feel like they should have said something and decided as a group if they wanted to do the event or not and left if they weren't part of the majority on either side. Personally I hate how the moon storm was handled due to the sheer amount of crap it's locked behind.

23 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei really needs to at this point break DST up into an Archipelago.. where the starting area remains beginner friendly, but should the player CHOOSE- they can bust open and explore sinkholes for harder content, Sail to a more harsh biome, build a Teleportato and leave the current world into new game +

literally anything that prevents the more experienced players from being able to make things that much worse on those who are just starting out.

At that point they may as well just split the player base via dlcs and such if people don't want to be influenced by other players they probably shouldn't be playing a multiplayer game. 

[Mr Giggio]

I do agree with everything u said and suggested mate however Im here to give a reminder about how to actually counter em

If u planflute the monkes, froze or telelocator the captain they basically weak and unable to run
But yeah needs attention and again, I do agree with what u proposing here

I think its about time to look at magic tab and see how it can be useful for more than dark swords when its about ocean content. I always telelocate sharks cuz they r just annoying and always worked jus fine for me to avoid em. 

[Spino43]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

They're fine as is they should never be considered as a difficulty slider however.

Agree. World Settings are meant to shape up a world in your favor, not difficulty sliders.

[Psychic Chicken]

Honestly, I'm up for a good challenge, but having this happen at random intervals possibly during a boss fight sounds infuriating.

I think a decent solution would be:

A: Like others mentioned, the monkeys should jump onto your boat 1-3 at a time, without changing the total amount of monkeys.

B: You should hear some sort of warning sound when they come, like boat rowing sounds, monkey sounds, something like that. They should also have a cooldown like hounds.

That's all. They should still be challenging, but balanced.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Having to facetank a group of enemies is never fun.