Info & feedback on new critters

[Fradow]

Updated for Public Testing 507983

We got new critter morphs! The new line-up:

From left to right: Delecta Vole, Oakshell, Sanishell, Cuddle Pip.

So, how does it look like those are going to stack up against the current meta? Let's delve into the details from the in-game database, tooltips, a bit of testing and some maths.

Disclaimer: it's not a fully informed opinion, as I didn't do real builds yet, so take those with a grain of salt.

Delecta Vole
To get those: ranch Voles in a 60°C to 100°C environment.

It eats the same thing as regular Voles and have the same output. The main difference is that it has quills that produces Tonic Root. To grow quills, it must eat food into the 70°C to 80°C range, then be sheared in a Shearing Station when quills are fully grown.
That requirement is not too hard, but still a bit bothersome for what's already an end-game critter.

For that privileges, it drops half the Meat when dying (8kcal vs 16kcal). Thanks to Smiling Demon for noticing.

To make that morph really attractive, it would require Tonic Root to be really useful, especially considering it cripples the Meat output. Currently, it can only be used to produce Curried Beans, which is a good recipe (after being buffed in update 508497) but only worth producing for vanity.
It produces 8 Tonic Roots per shearing, roughly every 7.7 cycles (12 shearing per lifetime) when food is at the right temperature or every 33 cycles (3 shearing per lifetime) when it's too hot (and nothing when it's too cold), which I have a hard time evaluating if it's a lot or not.

Suggestion to make it a real part of the meta: make Tonic Root an alternative to something else. It could be a great alternative to Thimble Reed, notably to produce industrial quantities of Insulation, or be woven into Thimble Reed. There could be new recipes using it, especially easier to create or with useful effect (for now, the "relieves gassiness" fluff in the codex doesn't seem to translate into anything real)

Overall: good enough to be considered as a vanity project, but not more. They'll stay very niche.

Oakshell
To get those: ranch Pokeshells in ethanol (at least 350kg in the bottom tile, see @DrDoofenshmirtz reply below).
It produces only 25% of eaten mass as Sand, making it twice as worse for sand as other morphs. On the other hand, its molts are crushed for Lumber rather than Lime. To be exact, a critter will produce a total of 550kg (50 from the small molt, 500 from the regular one) in its lifetime when unfed.

When fed, adults produce an additional 100kg/cycle lumber, for a total of slightly over 10t in its lifetime. They do not need to be happy, but they need a dry spot to shed their molts (see discussion below).

It's a side-grade that's going to fit a different need from Pokeshells: notably it's going to be an alternative to wild Arbor Trees + pips in an ethanol loop.

Quick maths for starvation ranching: assuming it's 16 cycles egg-to-egg, you get 34kg/cycle of lumber per individual. To replace 8 tame trees or 24 wild trees in producing 4kg/s for 4 ethanol distiller, that's 70 individual. A bit much, but within the realm of possible. After rounding a bit it's 2 full starvation ranches (which can contain a bit more than 8 individuals, since eggs don't count toward the 8 critter limit) per ethanol distiller.

Fed ungroomed ranching: no longer viable since update 507983. You get 18x less lumber over an Oakshell lifetime (10t => 550kg). Using previous quick maths, that means 252 Oakshells that will eat 9x more pdirt than you get back. That labor-less method is unfortunately not an option.

Quick maths for fed groomed ranching: in addition to its descendant, assuming you get 16 eggs per lifetime, each critter will produce 15 excess critters. At 550kg lumber per critter, that's 8250kg lumber, or 82.5kg/cycle, almost doubling the output. For that privilege, they consume 6685kg of pdirt over their lifetime, or about 67kg/cycle. That means 13 Oakshells to produce 4kg/s lumber, which require 1.45kg/s pdirt. It's not quite enough to make it pdirt neutral, since Ethanol Distillers only produce 1.33kg/s pdirt, but nearly, much like the tame arbor tree ethanol loop with pwater.

Having to ranch them is ethanol is a complication, which might make kick-starting the farm a bit hard.
The fed molt drop-rate might be a tad too low when groomed. That could be fixed by buffing it or changing its diet, as suggested by @blakemw

They currently eat Polluted Dirt and Slime, but considering the difficulty to produce large amounts of Slime, it can only be considered as a way to grow the population at the beginning, after which you'll have to switch to more renewable Polluted Dirt.

Overall: Klei did a fine job with that critter, but it's now a bit underpowered after the ungroomed nerf. It won't make arbor tree based ethanol loops obsolete, but does offer an alternative, probably based on a mix of starvation ranching and fed + groomed ranching to get pdirt neutral.

Sanishell
To get those: ranch Pokeshells in water (at least 350kg in the bottom tile, see @DrDoofenshmirtz reply below).
The first obvious usage for the Sanishell is removing germs. I didn't test how well it does, but considering how harmless germs are, and that there are already easy enough solution, it's not going to make it desirable.

What's going to make it desirable though is that, contrary to its brethen, it produces food instead of Molts! (thanks to Smiling Demon for pointing it out) That provides an alternative to Pacu ranching for Seafood (new "Cooked Fish" name) and Surf'n'Turf. At 4000kcal of food when dying, it is a credible alternative to Pacus. It is a worse option when taking into account the highly optimized pacu setup we currently have, but it is good enough to be of use in everyday runs.

You loose the  Lime output of a Pokeshell (since you still get the Small Sanishell Molts when a baby grows up) for that privilege, and breeding it requires ranching Pokeshells in Water. We'll have to see how much that complication hinders ranching, but at first glance it seems balanced, and a nice alternative to Pacus for Seafood.

Just like Oakshells, you will probably want to use Slime to quickstart the population. Afterwards, there is no reason to feed them, which means starvation-ranching.

Overall: very nice job on that one! It seems very balanced.

Cuddle Pip
To get those: feed Thimble Reed to pips
So this Pip morph produces less dirt (both per mass eaten and over time) than a regular pip, thus the only point is to make use of it's special ability: hugging eggs.
You can make them hug more by having a Dupe pass by when they are hoping for hugs and give it a hug. That gives a buff to the Pip that will give more hugs for 1 cycle, and a -5% Stress for 0.5 cycle to the Dupe hugging the Pip.
It's a bummer that doesn't generate an errand either: ranches are generally out of the way, meaning unless you design around that, most cuddle pips aren't going to get cuddled by Dupes, because Dupes just don't path through them.

They are similar to Incubators, giving a buff duration at no power cost, but it's +100% incubation rate, compared to +400% for incubators. Both are stackable for a total of +500% incubation rate. (thanks to @ghkbrew and @NeoDeusMachina for pointing that out)
Since powered incubators are currently not used a lot and Cuddle Pips is only 1/4 as effective, it's unlikely Cuddle pips will either.

They now only require 4 cells of space to be happy (compared to 8 for most critters), which means you can fit 24 Cuddle pips in a max-size ranch (96 cells), or 1 Cuddle Pip and 23 Eggs.

Suggestion to make them at least somewhat usable: prevent them from being Overcrowded/Cramped (like Shove Voles) so they can be housed permanently in an incubation room without limiting the number of eggs inside. Because while it's possible to work around that limit, considering how little they bring, it's unlikely players are going to bother with complicated setups for them.

Overall: they are cute, but they'll probably join Longhair Slicksters in the "expensive pet" category.

 

Closing thoughts

It's only the first version of those critters, so obviously it's normal that they are not perfectly balanced. In the current state, there are 2 critters worth ranching (Sanishell and Oakshell), and 2 critters not worth ranching (Delecta Vole and Cuddle Pip).

In my opinion, it's fine if the Cuddle Pip stay as-is: it's cute enough to exist without really fitting in any optimized setup.

The Delecta Vole is fine as it is as well, as long as its outputs find some uses to make it worth ranching. It would be a shame if it stayed like that.

The requirement to submerge Pokeshell to get new morphs is a really fine idea that will introduce some slight modifications to the existing ranches. The Pokeshells morphs might require a bit of balancing, but at first glance they are fine and can fit into the meta without upsetting the balance.

 

Overall: great job Klei!

Edit: I also meant to echo @pether (and others) request on the main game update thread: if more morphs are planned, please consider a Plug Slug morph that eat Refined Metals to have a new credible long-term electricity source.

[LadenSwallow]

Could the curried beans be a 'treatment' for flatulent dupes? E.g. stopping them from producing natural gas?

[Fradow]

I've not tested that. Even if it is, ranching delecta Vole, growing nosh beans and pinchas just to prevent flatulent dupes from farting is a massive overcomplicated compared to just not taking flatulent dupes.

Those curried beans seem really underwhelming currently, as they are even harder than Spicy Tofu to make, something that almost no one is making.

[Sasza22]

Flatulent dupes are an issue early in the game. If there was a cure i should involve something more common like mealwood seeds or fungal spores.

Curried beans as a late game food requiring mastering the space biome, keeping regolith in a narrow temperature range, getting cold ethanol for nosh beans and keeping them below zero and on top of that having a gas range with a stabile amount of natural gas (which can be tricky at times) should give a much better bonus. Something like an athletics or strength buff.

[pether]

3 hours ago, Fradow said:

Currently, as far as I know, it's not, with only one very forgettable recipe using it, Curried Beans

I confirm, I searched game files because I couldn't find in-game info and application for it. It has only one recipe. Agreed it is quite forgettable. I like it has special, unique effect after eating, but that is a gimmick, not a good balance.

Good feedback, I agree with all you wrote there.

I would add that pips always spread mischief and cuddle morph should do some mess as well - probably transport hugged eggs to random locations. I also don't like they still can plant trees, making base morph not really unique. Cuddle morph shouldn't have this ability, IMO, and focus only on eggs

[Smiling Demon]

A couple extra details from my own tests:

-The Delecta Vole only drops half the meat on death that a Shove Vole does

-The Sanishell does not drop any form of molt, so the only lime you get from them is the egg shell. There is a Sanishell molt in the sandbox spawner menu, but doesn't appear naturally in game.

Your math for ungroomed Oakshell ranching doesn't account for the reduced metabolism from being glum, which would reduce polluted dirt consumption? I didn't test Oakshells much myself.

[LadenSwallow]

What is the spoil time on curried beans? What if the food it is competing with is berry sludge for 'never spoils'  In a start without sleet wheat?

[Fradow]

4 hours ago, Smiling Demon said:

-The Delecta Vole only drops half the meat on death that a Shove Vole does

Added to the main post. That makes them even less desirable.

4 hours ago, Smiling Demon said:

-The Sanishell does not drop any form of molt, so the only lime you get from them is the egg shell. There is a Sanishell molt in the sandbox spawner menu, but doesn't appear naturally in game.

Indeed, I overlooked that. It downgrades them from "OP" to "balanced". I've updated the main post.

4 hours ago, Smiling Demon said:

Your math for ungroomed Oakshell ranching doesn't account for the reduced metabolism from being glum, which would reduce polluted dirt consumption? I didn't test Oakshells much myself.

Indeed, I was pretty sure I was making mistakes. I'll update the main post soon.

 

3 hours ago, LadenSwallow said:

What is the spoil time on curried beans? What if the food it is competing with is berry sludge for 'never spoils'  In a start without sleet wheat?

Same as Spicy Tofu, so no it doesn't compete in the "never spoils" category.

It provides a buff that's arguably more harmful than beneficial: Hot Stuff. The sneezing animations probably hinders Dupes more than the +3 athletics boost them...

[Steve8]

Shove voles dropping less meat is not an issue. They could really reduce it all around since voles are extremely OP. You can easily end up with way more meat than you know what to do with.

In general I feel that barbecue is too good though. It's enough as the standard diet in most cases, which makes food with more ingredients unattractive, no matter the calorie count. 

[LadenSwallow]

Maybe add an extra layer to meat -> barbecue chain such that meat -> prepared meat (1600 cal -> 1800 +2 morale grill) -> barbecue (3600 -> 4000 cal +4 morale range), burgers and surf'n'turf take prepared meat at adjusted calorie counts. Plant meat could perhaps also enter the chain at the same start as an alternative craft recipe for prepared meat?

[Fradow]

7 hours ago, Smiling Demon said:

Your math for ungroomed Oakshell ranching doesn't account for the reduced metabolism from being glum, which would reduce polluted dirt consumption? I didn't test Oakshells much myself.

I've updated the maths to take that into account: that's a big change, this changed this option from non-viable to best option.

[BezKa]

I kind of wish for more difference in art between oakshells and normal pokeshells. Perhaps some branches growing off of them, so the shape isn't identical

[LadenSwallow]

There is a change in units in the polluted dirt return of glum oakshells from kg/s return, kg/s feed to kg/cycle positive. Based on the prior numbers this should be kg/s positive?

[Fradow]

I've rephrased the quick maths to be a bit clearer.

Basically, when using 24 Glum Oakshells:

• They eat 0.68kg/s pdirt
• 4 Ethanol Refineries using the lumber they produce (after crushing Molts with a Rock Crusher) produce 1.33kg/s pdirt
• That's a net 0.65kg/s pdirt that you can use for whatever

[LadenSwallow]

The opening post states:

You need 24 Oakshells to produce 4kg/s lumber, which will eat 0.68kg/s pdirt. That lumber is used by 4 ethanol distillers, which returns 1.33kg/s pdirt, for a net gain of 0.65kg/cycle pdirt after feeding the Oakshells.

[DrDoofenshmirtz]

Quick notes from experimentation:

• Pokeshell/Oakshell/Sanishell require a minimum of 350kg of ethanol or water in the bottom tile they occupy to increase their chance of laying Oakshell or Sanishell eggs, respectively.
• The amount of liquid does not influence the egg chance change rate as long as it is sufficient. If the liquid quantity is not sufficient, the Pokeshell/Oakshell/Sanishell odds of laying a pinch row egg eventually goes back up to 100% and their odds of laying the morph eggs goes down to zero.

[Fradow]

9 hours ago, LadenSwallow said:

The opening post states:

You need 24 Oakshells to produce 4kg/s lumber, which will eat 0.68kg/s pdirt. That lumber is used by 4 ethanol distillers, which returns 1.33kg/s pdirt, for a net gain of 0.65kg/cycle pdirt after feeding the Oakshells.

Oops, that was a typo. It's indeed 0.65kg/s. I corrected that.

 

6 hours ago, DrDoofenshmirtz said:

Quick notes from experimentation:

• Pokeshell/Oakshell/Sanishell require a minimum of 350kg of ethanol or water in the bottom tile they occupy to increase their chance of laying Oakshell or Sanishell eggs, respectively.
• The amount of liquid does not influence the egg chance change rate as long as it is sufficient. If the liquid quantity is not sufficient, the Pokeshell/Oakshell/Sanishell odds of laying a pinch row egg eventually goes back up to 100% and their odds of laying the morph eggs goes down to zero.

Added the 350kg on bottom tile detail to the main post, thanks for experimenting!

Is it really 100% Pinch Roe, or does it cap at 96/2/2 like it does for other critters?

[Primalflower]

I dont quite understand why the delecta voles give so much less meat. Judging by the name, i assume that delecta voles are a morph that specializes in food, and this would be the case if they dropped as much meat as a regular vole. 

Plus, they're ridiculously adorable. I wish they were more useful!

[DrDoofenshmirtz]

8 hours ago, Fradow said:

Is it really 100% Pinch Roe, or does it cap at 96/2/2 like it does for other critters?

Currently yes, in fact here's a screen shot of an Oakshell with 100% Pinch Roe chance after it has been out of a sufficient ethanol environment for long enough:

 

edit: Also, I experimented with the "Oakshell - Quick maths for fed ungroomed ranching" section of your original post. The strategy does not work as stated since "glum" (meaning they are tamed but ungroomed) Oakshells do not produce the 0.2 molts per cycle even if they are fed.

Fully wild Oakshells do output the 0.2 molts per cycle (which translates to 100kg/cycle of lumber) and consume ~17.5kg/cycle polluted dirt (they eat about 70.3kg every four cycles). The problem with the wild Oakshell approach is that, since each one only lays one egg over their lifetime, you would be stuck at whatever number of wild Pokeshells you started with. This means the ungroomed strategy isn't really feasible for a setup of any appreciable scale.

[Fradow]

1 hour ago, DrDoofenshmirtz said:

Currently yes, in fact here's a screen shot of an Oakshell with 100% Pinch Roe chance after it has been out of a sufficient ethanol environment for long enough:

Hum, if this works the same way with Oakshells/Sanishell, it should be possible to keep an uniform population without any egg sorting. That would simplify ranching them.

1 hour ago, DrDoofenshmirtz said:

edit: Also, I experimented with the "Oakshell - Quick maths for fed ungroomed ranching" section of your original post. The strategy does not work as stated since "glum" (meaning they are tamed but ungroomed) Oakshells do not produce the 0.2 molts per cycle even if they are fed.

Fully wild Oakshells do output the 0.2 molts per cycle (which translates to 100kg/cycle of lumber) and consume ~17.5kg/cycle polluted dirt (they eat about 70.3kg every four cycles). The problem with the wild Oakshell approach is that, since each one only lays one egg over their lifetime, you would be stuck at whatever number of wild Pokeshells you started with. This means the ungroomed strategy isn't really feasible for a setup of any appreciable scale.

While the "0.2 molts per cycle" is probably inaccurate (it was a quick visual estimation not backed by extensive testing), tame and glum Oakshells do produce 0.2 molts from time to time. I've observed it several time, long after they were not groomed anymore.

There might be other conditions that prevent molt production, but the 2 Oakshells in that screenshot definitely produce Molts (I've removed the others to be sure, it was litered with Molts before I double-checked that and saw them produce Motls 2 time to ensure it was not a fluke):

[DrDoofenshmirtz]

6 minutes ago, Fradow said:

There might be other conditions that prevent molt production, but the 2 Oakshells in that screenshot definitely produce Molts (I've removed the others to be sure, it was litered with Molts before I double-checked that and saw them produce Motls 2 time to ensure it was not a fluke):

In my experimentation the tamed glum oakshells produced 2 molts as well but then stopped entirely. You might want to continue your test for a while longer.

[Fradow]

I was going to edit my previous post, but since you replied so fast, here goes, about 3 cycles later:

They are still Glum (of course, there is no Grooming Station) and have happily produced about 1 molt per cycle (again, not a definitive number, I didn't really time it)

[DrDoofenshmirtz]

8 minutes ago, Fradow said:

They are still Glum (of course, there is no Grooming Station) and have happily produced about 1 molt per cycle (again, not a definitive number, didn't really time it)

I think I figured it out - Oakshells will only molt on dry land. I had my glum tamed Oakshell in a space where it only had access to tiles submerged in 350kg ethanol. I drained out all the ethanol and it immediately shed a molt. Another one that was wild was only laying its molts on the one dry tile it had access to, as seen here (that's 4.4 molts in that one spot - 22 cycles worth):

Another wild Oakshell, this time in a fully dry area (notice the molts spread out):

Apologies for the confusion, you were right. So that's an important note when doing the glum strategy - they must have access to at least one dry tile (could be a mesh tile with a critter feeder on it to avoid flooding the feeder, for example).

[Fradow]

Very interesting, I didn't think about that! I've updated the main post with that information.

There goes my plan of having a one cell wide range to restrict Oakshells movement. Seems like the limit is at least 2 cells: one dry to shed molts and one in ethanol (or perhaps more will be needed, remains to be tested), to lay Oakshell eggs

[ghkbrew]

22 hours ago, DrDoofenshmirtz said:

I think I figured it out - Oakshells will only molt on dry land.

I peeked at the code.  They drop 0.2 molt if they're not in ethanol and they haven't dropped a molt for more than 600s.

 

22 hours ago, Fradow said:

There goes my plan of having a one cell wide range to restrict Oakshells movement.

I'm thinking keep them in 1 wide cell on a mesh tile, then dry them out once every 600s by opening a door below them and dropping the ethanol.  (similar to the flopping pacu setup)

Edit: looks like the check is only done when the critter moves.  So they will need at least a 2 wide cell.