Should Wormwood have a bloometer ?

[Caochu]

Wigfrid, Wolfgang, WX-78 ... They all got a meter related to their core mechanics.There were outrage and memes about this trend. That's why I wonder, now that it seems those reworks to be quite popular, what are the feelings of giving Wormwood more informations on its core mechanic ?

Big yay, big no ... Let's find out 

[luvu2bits]

I don't really mind meters in general, but if they go the WX approach and try to differentiate the meters from the normal ones, then I pog

[jan Mele]

No need for it

[Cheggf]

Where's the option for big indifferent?

[Caochu]

5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Where's the option for big indifferent?

Added !

5 minutes ago, jan Mele said:

No need for it

The question came to my mind recently, with a thread asking more information about the blooming mechanic. I realized I had outdated knowledge from the wiki from when Wormwood came to DST. Even today, it seems the wiki is outdated or at least wrong, and people that use mods or search in the game files know better. Isn't that just wrong ? Wormwood being one of the least played characters, i don't feel like knowledge about the character will improve among the playerbase, without some transparency.

[HowlVoid]

I rather not... I think the flower change is enough of a tell.

[Caochu]

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I rather not... I think the flower change is enough of a tell.

Even for new players ? Do they know what do the formula ? Which one are better ? That they can stack some effects ? But there is a max ? If at least Wormwood had some quotes about it, I could understand.

By the way, we could say the exact same thing about Wolfgang. Its different visual forms should be enough, but it seems they are not. 

[HowlVoid]

19 minutes ago, Caochu said:

Even for new players ?

The meter can be counterintuitive when there is a random meter that they have no way of understanding how to fill untill they get their hands on some relevant fertilizer. It could be distracting and confusing.

19 minutes ago, Caochu said:

Do they know what do the formula ?

There are a lot of things to figure out about wormwood, he can't heal with food for example and that would throw new players of immediately. They might end up think that the meter might have something to do with that. Wolfgang's, Wigfrid's and Wx-78's meters are immediately apparent because they come into play almost instantly. You could go a very long time not knowing what the new Wormwood meter does.

How long until the realize they can bloom via glommer goop, rotten fish, or growth formula? They might realize it when using a compost wrap, but then comes the problem of how much compost wrap would they waste trying to fill it immediately thinking that now that they've committed they must keep going?

The way blooming works now it won't present itself until a new player has at least made a wrap and that requires allowing something to spoil first, which may take a while. If they haven't died yet and blooming begins there is no feeling of commitment or urgency to interact with it, it's kinda of a surprise. This is good because blooming is something that once started should be left alone, especially in the early game. A meter would say, "hey you can add more to the meter and it will go up faster". Tier 1 and tier 2 have caps on how fast you can progress to the next tier, meaning without a meter spamming fertilizer in those stages communicates to the player that they are wasting fertilizer, because they are. 

19 minutes ago, Caochu said:

Which one are better ? That they can stack some effects ? But there is a max ?

An indicator might be more telling if Klei wants to go that route, but a simple meter won't do. 

Think bout the information a meter displays vs the current way to tell. How much difference is in the information told? A simple meter goes up and down and they would both tell you when blooming has started, which tier of blooming your on, and when blooming has started to revert. The one advantage the meter would display is when you're getting diminishing returns and when you've reached the cap, but it still won't tell you why. The meter in this case may still cause some level of confusion. I think there would still be encouragement for players to look for information on it regardless.

19 minutes ago, Caochu said:

If at least Wormwood had some quotes about it, I could understand.

There are a lot of thinks in the game that can't be solved with just quotes, like the location of the atrium. Some things are just trial and error and some are almost impossible to find on one's own. The game isn't meant to hold your hand in everything and it once didn't hold your hand in anything. 

I hope Klei doesn't revolve game's development on what new players understand or don't understand, it would hurt the games charm imo. They can information on it in the the new hint system if they really want to.

19 minutes ago, Caochu said:

By the way, we could say the exact same thing about Wolfgang. Its different visual forms should be enough, but it seems they are not. 

Wolfgang's meter is good enough for what it's used for. Again, without proper tutorials, which the game lacks, meters really only tell you that something is "happening or going to happen". In Wolfgang's case nothing new is actually being displayed vs what his transformations tell you. The advantage of the meter is know exactly how close you are to reverting which is important. Though you already know that you're deflating, you also know exactly when that's going to happen. It's a lot more crucial, but the fact remain that the meter is only providing an advantage but not actually telling you anything "new".

I would hope Klei actually improves upon the current tiers of blooming; perhaps with particle effects or the flowers that appear at his feet. Something more creative than filling the screen with new UI everytime new information needs to be displayed. The only new information I'd like to know is when you've reached the max cap of tier 3 (could release spores) and when you're getting close to reverting to tier 2 being more apparent (more instances of losing petals rapidly). 

One of the things I love about Wormwood is the feeling of accomplishment when taking a lot of time to understand the character.

[Hornete]

The bloom meter already exists.

Look at the visuals of your character.

[HowlVoid]

10 minutes ago, Hornete said:

The bloom meter already exists.

Look at the visuals of your character.

Blooming as it is now is great, if anything they can improve it by adding a few new effects when reaching max tier 3 (a single burst of pollen or a large single burst of big flowers at his feet) and when quickly reverting to tier 2 (losing a bunch petals quickly). 

I'd like the team to be creative and not just slap on new UI.

[Caochu]

1 hour ago, Hornete said:

The bloom meter already exists.

Look at the visuals of your character.

Just like Wolfgang I guess. Let's suppress it, following your logic. What does it add, am i right ?

I mean, if you think it is not useful for Wormwood even though it could show that spamming fertilizer does not increase the blooming speed, or which product increase, or event hat there is a cap.

[Szczuku]

Dst fans when no meter

[Caochu]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

The meter can be counterintuitive when there is a random meter that they have no way of understanding how to fill untill they get their hands on some relevant fertilizer. It could be distracting and confusing.

I am also sure the playerbase has an average IQ equal or less than the room temperature. This is an argument that used to be made about Warly when he was reworked for DST with all his receipts. I found it dumb back then and look today. There is actually no problem with it, people can learn and will.

Quote

There are a lot of things to figure out about wormwood, he can't heal with food for example and that would throw new players of immediately. They might end up think that the meter might have something to do with that. Wolfgang's, Wigfrid's and Wx-78's meters are immediately apparent because they come into play almost instantly. You could go a very long time not knowing what the new Wormwood meter does.

 So ? You don't trust Klei enough to go around that ? Like giving Wormwood some quotes about it, or give a little amount of bloom when spawning and a compost wrap to introduce players with the mechanic. I already understood you are really against the idea of a bloometer (are you using the mod that shows it ?) and so you try to justify your point with any meaningless details.

Quote

How long until the realize they can bloom via glommer goop, rotten fish, or growth formula? They might realize it when using a compost wrap, but then comes the problem of how much compost wrap would they waste trying to fill it immediately thinking that now that they've committed they must keep going?

Well, that's exactly why a meter will teach them actually. That's like, almost the whole point of it.

Quote

The way blooming works now it won't present itself until a new player has at least made a wrap and that requires allowing something to spoil first, which may take a while. If they haven't died yet and blooming begins there is no feeling of commitment or urgency to interact with it, it's kinda of a surprise. This is good because blooming is something that once started should be left alone, especially in the early game. A meter would say, "hey you can add more to the meter and it will go up faster". Tier 1 and tier 2 have caps on how fast you can progress to the next tier, meaning without a meter spamming fertilizer in those stages communicates to the player that they are wasting fertilizer, because they are.

Absolutely no, there is no logic in what you are saying. WITHOUT a meter, players will spam fertilizer in those stages without any information telling them it is actually useless. Just like without a meter for Wolfgang, players could lift endlessly thinking there is no cap. A meter shows those caps, shows what if you are doing helps or not. Thank you for that point in the favor of the bloometer.

Quote

An indicator might be more telling if Klei wants to go that route, but a simple meter won't do.

Interesting idea that might need to be developped.

Quote

Think bout the information a meter displays vs the current way to tell. How much difference is in the information told? A simple meter goes up and down and they would both tell you when blooming has started, which tier of blooming your on, and when blooming has started to revert. The one advantage the meter would display is when you're getting diminishing returns and when you've reached the cap, but it still won't tell you why. The meter in this case may still cause some level of confusion. I think there would still be encouragement for players to look for information on it regardless.

There are a lot of thinks in the game that can't be solved with just quotes, like the location of the atrium. Some things are just trial and error and some are almost impossible to find on one's own. The game isn't meant to hold your hand in everything and it once didn't hold your hand in anything. 

I hope Klei doesn't revolve game's development on what new players understand or don't understand, it would hurt the games charm imo. They can information on it in the the new hint system if they really want to.

Your first paragraphe explains eaxctly why a meter is perfect for displaying enough useful information for experimented players and incentives new players to trial and error. Thanks again for another point in favor of a bloometer ! We are doing great work thinking together 

For your second paragraph, if the game can hold Wolfgang's players hand, why not the same for Wormwood ? Also, you already explained why a meter doesn't actually hold hands.

Quote

Wolfgang's meter is good enough for what it's used for. Again, without proper tutorials, which the game lacks, meters really only tell you that something is "happening or going to happen". In Wolfgang's case nothing new is actually being displayed vs what his transformations tell you.

No that's wrong, it tells you that mining and which other actions are increasing or maintaining your mightyness. Your transformation don't tell you. That is exactly what Wormwood lacks.

Quote

The advantage of the meter is know exactly how close you are to reverting which is important. Though you already know that you're deflating, you also know exactly when that's going to happen. It's a lot more crucial, but the fact remain that the meter is only providing an advantage but not actually telling you anything "new".

Speed being the core mechanic of Wormwood, especially during Boss fight, I would argue that this is essential for Wormwood to know when he's about to lose a blooming tier. It's as crucial for Womrwood than for Wolfgang.

Quote

The only new information I'd like to know is when you've reached the max cap of tier 3 (could release spores) and when you're getting close to reverting to tier 2 being more apparent (more instances of losing petals rapidly). 

Those are the key information I'd like to display better, yes.

Quote

One of the things I love about Wormwood is the feeling of accomplishment when taking a lot of time to understand the character.

Wow, much reading wiki and forum, much mod using, so rewarding. While just an in-game meter could tell you enough to learn yourself what you need, with trial and error. That's like, one thousand times more rewarding for my taste.

[Dextops]

9 minutes ago, Caochu said:

I am also sure the playerbase has an average IQ equal or less than the room temperature. This is an argument that used to be made about Warly when he was reworked for DST with all his receipts. I found it dumb back then and look today. There is actually no problem with it, people can learn and will.

 So ? You don't trust Klei enough to go around that ? Like giving Wormwood some quotes about it, or give a little amount of bloom when spawning and a compost wrap to introduce players with the mechanic. I already understood you are really against the idea of a bloometer (are you using the mod that shows it ?) and so you try to justify your point with any meaningless details.

Well, that's exactly why a meter will teach them actually. That's like, almost the whole point of it.

Absolutely no, there is no logic in what you are saying. WITHOUT a meter, players will spam fertilizer in those stages without any information telling them it is actually useless. Just like without a meter for Wolfgang, players could lift endlessly thinking there is no cap. A meter shows those caps, shows what if you are doing helps or not. Thank you for that point in the favor of the bloometer.

Interesting idea that might need to be developped.

Your first paragraphe explains eaxctly why a meter is perfect for displaying enough useful information for experimented players and incentives new players to trial and error. Thanks again for another point in favor of a bloometer ! We are doing great work thinking together 

For your second paragraph, if the game can hold Wolfgang's players hand, why not the same for Wormwood ? Also, you already explained why a meter doesn't actually hold hands.

No that's wrong, it tells you that mining and which other actions are increasing or maintaining your mightyness. Your transformation don't tell you. That is exactly what Wormwood lacks.

Speed being the core mechanic of Wormwood, especially during Boss fight, I would argue that this is essential for Wormwood to know when he's about to lose a blooming tier. It's as crucial for Womrwood than for Wolfgang.

Those are the key information I'd like to display better, yes.

Wow, much reading wiki and forum, much mod using, so rewarding. While just an in-game meter could tell you enough to learn yourself what you need, with trial and error. That's like, one thousand times more rewarding for my taste.

mucho texto

[Hornete]

22 minutes ago, Caochu said:

much mod using

Howlvoid plays on console.

There's no need for these snarky remarks, everyone's different with how they play, if you weren't able to learn Wormwood by yourself in-depth, that's fine. Personally I never had to go on the wiki, or into the code, or use a mod, I just played around and found using a growth formula every 2 days or so was enough for me to permanently up-keep blooming,

I won't say no to more information or cues or hints surrounding the bloom mechanic, but I am against a bloom meter, I don't think Wormwood needs an entire meter dedicated to it.

[Mike23Ua]

When my skin of wormwood (say Hi by the way..)

starts to “Bloom” a creepy Eyeball starts to pop out of his head, and then in full bloom stage the entire head bursts open like those Resident Evil 4/5 Zombies with the freakish mouths. I think that’s enough that I don’t need a bloom Meter.

 

[BonesJrOfficial]

I'm actually a fan of each character who needs a meter of some sorts to have one.

I'd even enjoy if Wurt had display of the Merm Kings hunger honestly. 

I think a good idea for Wormwoods meter would be like 3 circles. Depending on what stage of bloom you're on that circle would be larger, and depending on if it's building or decreasing you'll have an up or down arrow.

Also im really partial to the nick name bloomometer 

[Faintly Macabre]

53 minutes ago, Hornete said:

There's no need for these snarky remarks

You literally responded to the topic with "there is a meter, look at your character". Fair bit of snark here, actually. Not a huge surprise that OP is getting testy.

@Caochu, you're actually incorrect: spamming formula fertilizers does increase the speed at which you bloom. It just doesn't instantly reduce the time remaining. Instead, it modifies an acceleration multiplier. The value of this is still somewhat dubious, though, because the increases are somewhat small and the growth rate resets to its normal rate (modified by the season) with each stage.

[lakhnish]

If you want a bloom meter, use this client-side mod called Wormwood Bloom Predictor:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2786299410

[Mike23Ua]

55 minutes ago, BonesJrOfficial said:

I'm actually a fan of each character who needs a meter of some sorts to have one.

I'd even enjoy if Wurt had display of the Merm Kings hunger honestly. 

I think a good idea for Wormwoods meter would be like 3 circles. Depending on what stage of bloom you're on that circle would be larger, and depending on if it's building or decreasing you'll have an up or down arrow.

Also im really partial to the nick name bloomometer 

That looks okay but- let me purpose the real reason WHY people don’t like all these meters in the game: 

They are intrusive, they block portions of your screen, and if your unfortunate enough to be on anything other than PC- they can be Deadly..

give me a minute to explain: On PC (through the Wonderful power of Mods) you can do all sorts of things- such as but not limited to.. Moving the location of these Meters, Reducing their Size, Pressing some Button that Hides the Meter until you want to see it again, OR you can ZOOM your Screen In and Out.

Xbox/PlayStation do not have those liberties so any Meters that are added to the game are always on screen and always blocking your extremely important field of view (This is also one of the reasons I Hate/Love the New UI I can leave a Column full of Unpinned stuff to mostly hide this off screen.. but the way you access it is just cumbersome- I’d prefer an easier way but that’s a topic for another thread) 

On Xbox in Particular the Meters are always on screen at all times, but pressing in RT I think it is shows the actual Stat percentage of those meters (how much health, sanity etc you have Ex 25%) 

Therefore I think non-intrusive visual representation of a mechanic is equally as important as having a bunch of on screen field of view blocking meter bars.

For example: Wanda’s age is represented by the actual changing of her body, hair etc.

Therefore- I think Wormwood is fine without additional on screen information hiding I don’t know let’s just say the MacTusk creeping in underneath it to hit me with a Blowdart? (My worst enemy in the game by the way..)

[BonesJrOfficial]

@Mike23Ua I actually mainly play on PS4, and split screen at that. I'm very familiar with having absolutely no screen lol. I do have PC as well, but I made the the switch to console probably 3 or 4 years ago and I really enjoy it much more.. I've not had a lot of time to play recently, the new crafting menu made it a LOT more difficult on console just in general. It's not terrible but it is so far from great. I've played it on PC and seems ridiculously more fluid there. 

But I digress... I think this can be condensed to the size of basically Wigfrids inspiration meter and that would be just fine. Not that every character really needs one. But Wanda's HP is a meter much like how you see her physical form change.. same as Wolfgang but he actually has a 4th circle for might.. I think when we start getting big things like WX circuits when this actually becomes intrusive.

[Mike23Ua]

14 minutes ago, BonesJrOfficial said:

@Mike23Ua I actually mainly play on PS4, and split screen at that. I'm very familiar with having absolutely no screen lol. I do have PC as well, but I made the the switch to console probably 3 or 4 years ago and I really enjoy it much more.. I've not had a lot of time to play recently, the new crafting menu made it a LOT more difficult on console just in general. It's not terrible but it is so far from great. I've played it on PC and seems ridiculously more fluid there. 

But I digress... I think this can be condensed to the size of basically Wigfrids inspiration meter and that would be just fine. Not that every character really needs one. But Wanda's HP is a meter much like how you see her physical form change.. same as Wolfgang but he actually has a 4th circle for might.. I think when we start getting big things like WX circuits when this actually becomes intrusive.

The thing is Klei knows how vital the players Field of View is .. they’ve messed with it with the Hamlet Jungles, and the DST Water Logged Canopies, WAGSTAFF as a playable character in DS solo’s entire gameplay is based on field of view, when wearing his metal armored helmet thing, it drastically reduced how far the player can see this was done as a “Downside” to using the Helmet…

So Klei of all people knows what all these extra meters on screen blocking gameplay does..

I watched the Rhymes with Play stream the other day & the developers themselves use features that just isn’t in the console versions of the game (being able to zoom in/out) I believe THAT alone can make all the difference in the world in how intrusive or not these meters are to the player.

Ive had MacTusk sneak in under my top right corner of meters when it’s filled with HP, Sanity, Hunger, Mighty, Wetness, Day/Night cycle.

Ive had Cookie Cutters sneak in and devour my boat because I was foolishly sailing downwards and they hid beneath my Inventory/Backpack Hud.

And until I realized I could “somewhat” hide the New UI by moving to an empty column with no pins- I’ve Died to enemies hiding beneath that part of my screen too.

Field of View is important.. 

[BonesJrOfficial]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The thing is Klei knows how vital the players Field of View is .. they’ve messed with it with the Hamlet Jungles, and the DST Water Logged Canopies, WAGSTAFF as a playable character in DS solo’s entire gameplay is based on field of view, when wearing his metal armored helmet thing, it drastically reduced how far the player can see this was done as a “Downside” to using the Helmet…

So Klei of all people knows what all these extra meters on screen blocking gameplay does..

I watched the Rhymes with Play stream the other day & the developers themselves use features that just isn’t in the console versions of the game (being able to zoom in/out) I believe THAT alone can make all the difference in the world in how intrusive or not these meters are to the player.

Ive had MacTusk sneak in under my top right corner of meters when it’s filled with HP, Sanity, Hunger, Mighty, Wetness, Day/Night cycle.

Ive had Cookie Cutters sneak in and devour my boat because I was foolishly sailing downwards and they hid beneath my Inventory/Backpack Hud.

And until I realized I could “somewhat” hide the New UI by moving to an empty column with no pins- I’ve Died to enemies hiding beneath that part of my screen too.

Field of View is important.. 

I'm by no means denying FOV isn't important. I try to only travel up as you see the farthest, which I've learned in experience from an insane amount of playtime... In fact most games that can have a FOV slider I turn it up at least a little bit.

I just don't think 1 more circle is too bad, when about half the characters have one, and of the 4 characters that physically change, 2 of them have meters for that. (Again I'd argue Wurt should have a meter too, even if it was only indicated when close to the King, at minimum). I think there is a clean way to execute meters, and a not so clean way. For WX I don't think the devs had any other choice. RIP split backpack users.

Just for extra clarification, lots of PC users add minimap and season / temperature, health bars and all that clutter. I'm NOT about that at all.

[Mike23Ua]

22 minutes ago, BonesJrOfficial said:

Just for extra clarification, lots of PC users add minimap and season / temperature, health bars and all that clutter. I'm NOT about that at all.

Yes they can add all that (and it looks hideous) but they can also zoom in & out.. 

I still haven’t seen any reasonable post explaining why Wormwood should have a Meter, it just seems like something the player can discover on their own with enough playtime, (as in it’s not going to absolutely kill Wormwood without having it on screen) but for someone like Wolfgang who actually has frames of being vulnerable and open to enemy attacks in between transformation stages: Having a Meter to know when your about to revert forms is important.

With Wormwood however.. it is significantly LESS Important.. and I think that’s the difference as to why Wolfgang has a Might Meter and Wormwood doesn’t have a meter.

[Cloakingsumo198]

I had a wormwood use my collection of glommer goop all in one go since they didn't know how to ration it all out.

It was a sad day.