Genuine Question: Is very fast speed a over-powered perk? Why?

[Mike23Ua]

Moving faster, not just in DST but generally in any game- is usually more beneficial then doing more damage but moving slower.

Take the Batman Arkham games as an example: When you play as Catwoman you move faster, but you also have less health and Armor, Moving faster means getting seen/shot less often- And hey wouldn’t you know it: WX78 now has a perk where getting the aggro of Clockworks is reduced.

To summarize: With reduced awareness from clockworks AND Faster movement speed your now Effectively Arkham’s Catwoman, moving faster, less detection, and looting the place out quicker.

Speed- no matter how you try to sugar coat it: Will always be one of: If not The most valuable perks in video games.

If the game (DS/DST) is designed around the intention of swapping between a Weapon & Walking Cane- Then the process becomes that much easier when you yourself are a built in Walking Cane.

[goatt]

@Mike23Ua I can't talk about other games. Walking cane + yellow amulet is very beneficial in combat. But his speed bonus is just like yellow amulet and maybe a little more for combat. But anything beyond the useful fast speed, is just waste in general regarding to real impact on combat. x1.7 is just tiny bit more useful than x1.3, despite smoothness. It's beneficial to dodging, but anything wx can dodge, other characters with proper prep and equipment and skills can also dodge. (I'm translating "beneficial" to "more impactful on overall combat".)

[00petar00]

Its kind of strange how so many people don't consider speed to be the best modifier you can get. Unless you are playing with Wanda and even in that case you'd need to wait for winter to be able to teleport and while she has to set specific locations, she can also farm as many tusks for these backtrek watches as she wants and she has backstep for invincibility frames that lets her dodge attacks that people with any high amount of speed can too.

While all other characters don't have such power, some have speed to rely on and it is the best stat in the game for multiple reasons.

It allows you easier dodging and to get a few more hits in, this is usually better compared to having some damage modifier as you get the other benefit of speed outside of combat while damage is just there for that. 

It may not look that useful when it comes to time management if you plan to play 20-30 days but once you put hundreds if not thousands on the same save file, it is completely different when you have speed buff and not and it would probably be noticable to anyone, especially if they have another save where they didn't have the speed buff and have played similar number of days.

Nothing wrong with players that don't want to maximize their time management skills in a game, not everyone has the same playstyle and while i enjoy min maxing, its understandable that some would see it as a job if they played like that but it would be incorrect to say speed doesn't save you a decent amount of time depending on the %, they can get a walking cane but you can too with the speed buff.

There's a reason why a lot of megabasers used WX-78 before refresh and just had him overcharged all the time before Wanda release.

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, Marnxx said:

1)It increases the number of swings you can take between dodges

2) Reduces the damage you take due to it being easier to dodge

It can do these but it's not guaranteed to. If you're going for extra hits a lot of the time it will "increase" the damage you take due to making it harder to dodge because you're trying a tighter pattern.

Speed is good in combat but speed as a character perk for combat is far outshined by other combat perks like damage (which will always reduce the damage you take and increase the damage you deal).

3 hours ago, Marnxx said:

Decreases the time it takes to move around the map, essentially increasing the efficiency of your time.

Which isn't overpowered (there are plenty of other time saving perks as well), and Wanda is better at that anyways.

3 hours ago, Marnxx said:

There are attacks in the game that are next to impossible to dodge without speed items.

And being able to dodge them without those items is useful but not overpowered.

[Theukon-dos]

14 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

It can do these but it's not guaranteed to. If you're going for extra hits a lot of the time it will "increase" the damage you take due to making it harder to dodge because you're trying a tighter pattern.

Speed is good in combat but speed as a character perk for combat is far outshined by other combat perks like damage (which will always reduce the damage you take and increase the damage you deal).

Which isn't overpowered (there are plenty of other time saving perks as well), and Wanda is better at that anyways.

And being able to dodge them without those items is useful but not overpowered.

You're right. On their own, perks like "Getting around the map faster", "Being better at fighting" or "Saving times on some tasks" aren't overpowered.

The problem is that speed gives the character who has it all of those perks at the same time. A WX player who has the speed chip in will always be better at combat, will always be getting around faster, and will always be finishing chores faster. Compare that to, say, the electrocution circuit, which will only help WX in combat.

 

Mind you though, I don't think that stacking 3 speed modules would be the meta. WX *does* have some useful perks that could potentially rival speed. The issue is that the speed 2 module outclasses everything in the same tier as it.

All the other 2-prong circuits are simple stat boosts, and WX's stats aren't low enough for these to feel important IMO. The only one that isn't a stat boost is the electric retaliation circuit, which does less than spear damage when you get hit and is only effective against single targets. Atleast as I understand it.

So really, while I wouldn't make every slot a circuit, if I have 2 circuit slots available, then having a speed circuit there is a no brainer.

[chincer]

i think the problem is that movement speed is very selfish perk, which it is fine but shouldnt be the focus, wanda get away with it by the fact no one can cover the distance she can so fast and she can allow others to use the effect at the cost of a purple gem

movement speed for WX is quite powerful but i feel the focus should be everything else in his Kit and movement speed should be a small bonus

[goatt]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Nothing wrong with players that don't want to maximize their time management skills in a game

From what I read in your comment, I think you are kinda equating speed bonus to time saving. I agree speed bonus can save time. I like speed bonus so much that I always tame a beef in pub game so that I can be fast. But the vice versa isn't true. In other words, time saving doesn't exclusively require speed bonus. Depending on how you play, some players can save more time in farming, some can save more time in combat, some in cooking. I've never seen anybody who's always walking. They gotta stop somewhere to finish their quest. In other words, people can save time maybe more time by choosing something else over speed bonus.

[00petar00]

19 minutes ago, goatt said:

From what I read in your comment, I think you are kinda equating speed bonus to time saving. I agree speed bonus can save time. I like speed bonus so much that I always tame a beef in pub game so that I can be fast. But the vice versa isn't true. In other words, time saving doesn't exclusively require speed bonus. Depending on how you play, some players can save more time in farming, some can save more time in combat, some in cooking. I've never seen anybody who's always walking. They gotta stop somewhere to finish their quest. In other words, people can save time maybe more time by choosing something else over speed bonus.

It depends on the playstyle and DST is multiplayer game while i mostly play alone so that is why speed is so important to me.

While someone can stay in base and build or farm when they play with friends, speed bonus isn't as useful for them and it won't save them that much time if they aren't walking as much.

While it is unquestionable that unless you play with a team with a very specific playstyle, you'll spend a lot of time travelling around the map over the course of seasons or years.

I don't usually tame a beefalo since i mostly play Wanda nowdays and i'll probably be playing a lot of WX-78 too at least in the first year. So while you can ignore individual characters that have speed buffs because you tame beefalo, you are still trying to get the same speed buff that is so beneficial.

While you are not always walking, does that mean that you don't spend a lot of time overall when you do? While you can do tasks and optimize around time saving like basing near wormhole and making beeboxes would cut down on food gathering but speed would help you in exploring the map so that you can find that perfect or best spot on your current world to base, so where am i going with this is that speed just seems universal when it comes down to time saving while every other activity can save you time these are optional and you don't really need to do any of that, while when you move your character speed comes to play.

[Seero]

I think it's fine, we don't have a characters with raw speed buffs ever since they nerfed Wolfgang

Wormwood, walter and Wurt don't count 

What WX needs right now is circuits that will make people pick those over speed/thermal/nightvision 

I don't see why anyone would pick hunger and sanity over speed health and all that

[Copyafriend]

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

 

 

A: i broke the quote thing and im not sure how

B:

no one argued that speed is useless, or even not very useful, but maximizing your characters speed isn’t necessarily the best. You can become VERY fast with a rider beefalo using a gossamer saddle, you’re not going to be saving much time going faster than it. With a rider beefalo i can typically cross the map in a very short timespan, and its not hard to tame a beefalo early on. 
 

the argument then becomes is it really all that efficient? With a rider beefalo you can bring an extra krampus sack full of supplies if you needed it for a construction project. Or bring more loot back from a trip allowing you to loot for longer and make less trips, if nothing else it allows you to not micromanage your inventory so closely.
40 to 50% speedboost is only 7% faster. Also if you use a speedboost instead of riding a beefalo, you have to bring armor and weapons, with a beefalo you could bring a change of saddle and a saddlehorn which is good for an infinite number of fights without any loss in durability Saving said armor weapons and maybe even healing for harder bosses.

[00petar00]

17 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

A: i broke the quote thing and im not sure how

B:

no one argued that speed is useless, or even not very useful, but maximizing your characters speed isn’t necessarily the best. You can become VERY fast with a rider beefalo using a gossamer saddle, you’re not going to be saving much time going faster than it. With a rider beefalo i can typically cross the map in a very short timespan, and its not hard to tame a beefalo early on. 
 

the argument then becomes is it really all that efficient? With a rider beefalo you can bring an extra krampus sack full of supplies if you needed it for a construction project. Or bring more loot back from a trip allowing you to loot for longer and make less trips, if nothing else it allows you to not micromanage your inventory so closely.
40 to 50% speedboost is only 7% faster. Also if you use a speedboost instead of riding a beefalo, you have to bring armor and weapons, with a beefalo you could bring a change of saddle and a saddlehorn which is good for an infinite number of fights without any loss in durability Saving said armor weapons and maybe even healing for harder bosses.

It is very efficient and it seems that you got the numbers wrong, speed is multiplicative, while it isn't effective now for WX-78 to max it out with 3 speed circuits as they give diminishing effects and there are other circuits that are better to combine with 1 speed circuit. With 50% speed using cane/magiluminescence and cobblestone road, he can walk almost 3x faster compared to characters that don't have any speed boosts.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

The problem is that speed gives the character who has it all of those perks at the same time. A WX player who has the speed chip in will always be better at combat, will always be getting around faster, and will always be finishing chores faster.

A minor increase in combat efficacy, a marginal increase in chore completion speed (time saved on things like chopping is practically non-existent), and a major increase in map traversal speed is not a problem. Wanda has a major increase in combat efficacy and an even larger increase in traversal speed than WX. Wolfgang has a major increase in combat efficacy and a moderate increase in chore completion speed. Woodie has a moderate increase to chopping, a moderate increase to exploration speed, a major increase to ocean exploration speed, a major increase to AoE capabilities, a moderate increase to combat efficacy in certain situations, and a few other things, but people aren't saying he's OP. Wormwood also does a lot of different things but people aren't saying he's OP.

I don't think it's a problem that someone is slightly better at most things, especially with the celestial portal encouraging specialist characters over generalists.

[goatt]

5 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

While you are not always walking, does that mean that you don't spend a lot of time overall when you do?

That's the question. And my honest answer is I don't know. That's why it's puzzling why people are so sure it's "the most" beneficial or important traits, like definitively. I've yet to seen an absolutely convincing explanation.

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

he can walk almost 3x faster compared to characters that don't have any speed boosts.

That's true. But it's not fair to compare a naked other character to a fully speedified wx. It's only fair to compare them when both are fully speedified. In that case, the wx is 3x speed, but other base character is x2 speed. The difference is x1.5, not x3.

[00petar00]

51 minutes ago, goatt said:

That's the question. And my honest answer is I don't know. That's why it's puzzling why people are so sure it's "the most" beneficial or important traits, like definitively. I've yet to seen an absolutely convincing explanation.

That's true. But it's not fair to compare a naked other character to a fully speedified wx. It's only fair to compare them when both are fully speedified. In that case, the wx is 3x speed, but other base character is x2 speed. The difference is x1.5, not x3.

I haven't really tested that but i don't think others can reach x2 but maybe it is around that much with cane/magi/cobble as it is multiplicative when it comes to speed it really matters when WX-78 can have 50% to start with, at least before refresh now it is not worth using 3 speed circuits when it has diminishing effects it goes 25/40/50, so putting a third one just gives 10% and it is probably best to just use 1.

[SinancoTheBest]

6 hours ago, Seero said:

What WX needs right now is circuits that will make people pick those over speed/thermal/nightvision 

I don't see why anyone would pick hunger and sanity over speed health and all that

There'd be ample reason if all stats are lowered to 100 and a 7th slot is added. 

The problem with WX' current stats is that they are already pretty good so the stat circuits end up as mere boosts rather than having profound gameplay changes they'd provide over 100 base stats. 

[00petar00]

20 minutes ago, SinancoTheBest said:

There'd be ample reason if all stats are lowered to 100 and a 7th slot is added. 

The problem with WX' current stats is that they are already pretty good so the stat circuits end up as mere boosts rather than having profound gameplay changes they'd provide over 100 base stats. 

Not really, stats don't matter much unless they are extremely low. 100 hunger is just annoying to deal with while 100 hp doesn't matter when your effective HP with armor is so much higher, just means that you need to eat more often.

It will always be better to pick circuits that actually give something of value that you otherwise need to actively spend resources on, like moggles for night vision or having to heat yourself up in winter, why do all that when you can just plug two circuits.

[reallychina]

It's not game breaking, but it's very powerful and very boring.

• You get more hits in before dodging, which depending on mob attack pattern can mean even a 50% damage increase (ex knight clockwork). Speed increase is damage increase.
• You can dodge much better and this means you spend less time crafting heals/armor etc.
• With sufficient speed you are guaranteed to hit a shadow before it hits you, dodge then you hit it again, which translates to risk-free double damage. This is even more valuable when you have multiple shadows on you because the sooner you dispatch of them, the less risk you have to be hit.
• you can trigger attacks safer (lining depth worms, shadow monkeys etc). So you have better crowd control.
• shadow monkey big trains can no longer kill you (if you aren't fast enough and they are too many, then will push each other into you)
• you can dodge undogeable attacks
• with sufficient speed bonus you can use marble suit like a regular armor
• You move faster, which means you do whatever you need to do faster, so you end up doing more stuff, which in turn helps you do more stuff later while saving food. It's composing returns, it's not linear. 

All of that and more is further boosted by using a magiluminescence all of the time (on top of cane), which is achievable by most characters.

The only reason damage is better than speed overall is because certain bosses require additional expensive rare items like pan flutes and weather pains. so damage saves on those items and green gems.

 

Yes, speed is that good, but to take advantage of it you also need a lot of game experience.

 

At this point doing 3x speed ruin rushes with WX is better than 1 speed 1 moggles.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, reallychina said:

 

I agree with pretty much most of what you said except that i think that speed is better then damage because it is useful in so many situations while damage can save you some resources when fighting bosses it can't compare to a speed buff that will constantly help you do everything you said and passively having higher speed means you do every task faster, saving time and obtaining more resources in that given time.

[Seero]

11 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

There'd be ample reason if all stats are lowered to 100 and a 7th slot is added. 

The problem with WX' current stats is that they are already pretty good so the stat circuits end up as mere boosts rather than having profound gameplay changes they'd provide over 100 base stats. 

If you do that, people will just put the 1.0 health slot in the 7th

while still having 3 speed or 1 speed 1 moggle 1 health
No room for sanity/hunger
I think we should have 6 slots + 3 but the 3 can only have 1 of each stat (hunger health sanity)
the 6 slots can still have stats too, but something needs to be done so you can't have 750 health, unless you want 750 health