Don’t Get Hit.

[Mike23Ua]

I did not know rather to post this into the suggestions thread or the beta feedback thread, but since there is a currently active ongoing Beta.. I figured it went here.

First off- I’m an Xbox player & therefore can’t participate in Betas, However something just sounds completely “Off” about WX78’s beta rework 600hp regardless of the means to obtain them is pretty high no matter the character your playing as.

And I don’t care if old WX was way more broken, it still just sounds a bit much..

Now not too long ago during the Wolfgang rework Klei put a mechanic onto him that When getting hit he would lose Mightiness (a lot of people liked this mechanic but found it unfitting of Wolfgang) the last time we had this happen was Wendy’s Lower HP=Higher Damage which is now on Wanda.

I think it would be cool if WX78 had this “Don’t Get Hit” Mechanic, and maybe by being hit it’ll fling gears/robot parts everywhere causing WX78 to lose stats (such as health core) unless the dropped gears are picked back up.

Coincidentally.. this also would make even a 600 hp WX78 have a vulnerability in the PVP game mode (yes DST has a PvP mode, & I don’t care that it’s not the main focus of the game.. as long as any type of PvP mode exists then there should be at least a few things balanced for it.)

With WX78 having the option between high health, or high speed.. Night Vision & Lowered Aggravation of Clockworks This is the single best character in the game (aside from Wanda) which would encourage a “Dont get hit” Mechanic.

I’m not sure how well it would work in actual gameplay: but I mean Come on WX78’s Idle animation is having it’s arm literally falling off its body.. so i think it would be hilarious to see WX get hit and see sparks, gears and electrical wiring bounce out of its chest compartment.

[bigGMIW]

I would have to disagree, since this would make basically any module other than speed even less valuable as you would just lose your utility modules for dumb stuff. I don't entirely like the idea of WX78 just being a 1.5x speed character and people use them for nothing else. I also hate the idea that we should balance around PVP where its never been the point of the game and a small community like that would make mods to balance around it anyways.

[Cheggf]

600 hp is pretty worthless since it has no damage resistance or health regeneration. Wortox, Wigfrid, and Webber are all considerably tougher, and can have said durability without sacrificing everything else they do.

[dzzydzzy]

27 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

 Webber are all considerably tougher, and can have said durability without sacrificing everything else they do.

Webber?? Tougher?? you're crazy. That must be a typo lmaoo

[Harrowick]

23 minutes ago, dzzydzzy said:

Webber?? Tougher?? you're crazy. That must be a typo lmaoo

Increased base HP compared to other characters. 175 HP I believe compared the regular 150. Not alot, but it is there.

Might also account for the 5 stacks of spider glands he can accumulate in one spider war.

[Cheggf]

29 minutes ago, dzzydzzy said:

Webber?? Tougher?? you're crazy. That must be a typo lmaoo

Nurse spiders

[Mike23Ua]

35 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Nurse spiders

This is true lol, you can just trick two nurse spider follower into fighting each other and then when your fully healed just pick up the spider that’s being attacked to save it from the other. It’s OP free healing <3

[Baark0]

No one likes wolfgangs dont get hit mechanic for a reason, so klei removed it. Why would they instantly add a disliked mechanic back into the game knowing full well how the community reacted last time?

[Cheggf]

23 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

No one likes wolfgangs dont get hit mechanic for a reason, so klei removed it. Why would they instantly add a disliked mechanic back into the game knowing full well how the community reacted last time?

It wasn't removed due to everyone hating the idea of it, it was removed due to it not working out too well. In order for it to have been implemented in a good way they would have had to do something along the lines of figuring out how much every single enemy should drain on hit and manually assigning values to them. After it was removed there were a couple threads saying not to give up on it and to keep trying.

Not that I'm saying the mechanic should come back for WX, though.

[-Nick-]

As I may disagree with Op's post, WX does need an actual meaningful downside. In the current beta, WX has infinite perks with no real downside. The only minor downside is charges being lost from taking out circuits and the long recharge time, but that doesn't really do anything but cause a minor annoyance. Speed 2.0 is mostly the culprit for overshadowing the other circuits (especially when some other circuits have really underwhelming stats).

I really want WX to have a meaningful downside. I have played WX for years and always yearned for it.

The new water "downside" for WX is trivial to the point that it saddens me. WX only losing charges when over the water threshold every 10 seconds, and then finally taking damage every 20 seconds when out of charges is absurdly pathetic. If they wanted to keep that in some form, WX could take damage each charge lost from water, then WX would start to take double the damage when on low or out of charges.

 Theres so many ways you could do with water and how it interacts with the character, especially with this new charge meter. A new rust mechanic could effect the charge bar, making it have some kind of effect on the plugged circuits and charges.

 

Me asking for a meaningful downside for WX does not mean I want to nerf the character. WX-78 could get more interactions/buffs to his perks that can go along with a better downside.

[Theukon-dos]

Ermmmm. No.

 

For starters, I think you're overestimating just how helpful 600 HP is. Is it useless? No, not at all. But you get diminishing returns. Armor alone allows any character to get effectively hundreds of HP. And while a WX can theoretically get into the thousands for theoretical HP, at that point the HP is only a buffer. Remember, any character can quaff down food or apply healing items at any time to restore HP. So if you have healing items, then it doesn't really how much HP you have, higher HP just means you can wait longer before healing.

 

And secondly, as the Forums' foremost expert on character downsides (why yes my ego is massive. Thank you very much), This downside... wouldn't work very well. You see, a good downside isn't just one that's more complex than low stats. A good or even Great downside is one that pushes the player to interact with a character's upsides, or fundamentally changes the way they approach the game.

Wigfrid's carnivorism means that she's more reliant on her damage bonus and stat vampirism to maintain her stats. She can't rely on the easy restoration items that other characters have such as mushrooms or cactus.

Wagstaff's near-sightedness makes you rely on his various goggles, and all the benefits that come with them. It also means that he's more reliant on body slot equipment, so you can't just run around with a backpack 24/7.

Wanda having time instead of health means that her ability to heal is severely limited, but the age mechanic also means that she's rewarded for being on low health. Thus, you end up with a high risk/high reward playstyle where you want to be on low HP, and can't easily escape that state if things get too hot to handle.

 

All of these downsides don't just serve to nerf characters, they directly compliment what they can do and raise their strengths even higher. The exact opposite of what your suggested WX downside would do.

 

For starters, why does WX want to be getting into fights in the first place? He can buff his health and speed, but other than that, he doesn't have any easier time fighting enemies, 'nor does he get substantially more benefit from fighting enemies like Wigfrid does. And even if WX was a combat-oriented character, how would loosing his modules/base stats on hit improve his playstyle? We have 2 characters who roughly fill the "Don't get hit niche". Those being Wanda, who again; high-risk high-reward. And Walter, who has a ranged weapon and a unique mount that lets him distance himself from enemies. 

 

Actually, There is one combat circuit that I completely forgot about until now. That being the electrocution circuit. Which only deals retaliation damage if WX gets hit.

 

So ultimately, not only would this downside not fit WX as it stands, but it really doesn't fit the idea of a "modular" character at all, and would need a character fully built around the idea to work.

This is actually why I'm fond of the idea of nerfing WX's base stats down too 100 each. It's not a particularly interesting downside, but it would force WX to rely on their stat modules more instead of just sticking with speed/nightvision/whatever at all times.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

list of characters that arent better than 600hp Wx:

- wes (still more useful in coop)

- wilson

that is all but wx isnt either the best character even with the cooler combination, just comfy

[Rafi.]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

-snip-

You really did choose the characters with downsides that are absolutely a joke to deal with. I agree tho. That WX downside doesn't seems that great, the base stat being 100 would be awesome, I'd like to see more attention to the wet downside, getting more damage being wet, and, something that I didn't saw at all that I think could be a nice touch, is loosing 50% max health from drowning (I would actually ask for 75% but I understand that might be too much for certain players)

[MondayNight]

While I have nothing against a WX with 600 HP potential pool, am still puzzled why Wolfgang was then nerfed to 200 hp (static) from 300 (peak Mightiness). Could've been 250 to reflect his bigger physique as opposed to Wigfried's (base 200 but with passive 0.75x taken damage - corresponding to 250 tanked dmg in relation to normal characters). Solely a nitpick now that most forumers are on-board with 600 HP upgraded WX. Once more: am ok as well with seemingly OP stats on paper - since bulk player-base would swiftly "burn" even 1k hp like there's no-tomorrow (give Thule gear to random pub goers and see how fast they die nevertheless).

[Well-met]

16 hours ago, Cheggf said:

600 hp is pretty worthless since it has no damage resistance or health regeneration. Wortox, Wigfrid, and Webber are all considerably tougher, and can have said durability without sacrificing everything else they do.

"having no armor beats those with armor/heals"

is wx forbidden from also using armor lol?

[Theukon-dos]

21 minutes ago, Well-met said:

"having no armor beats those with armor/heals"

is wx forbidden from also using armor lol?

If one fights, say, Ancient Fuelweaver with Football helmets, the the average character (150 HP) will need 8 hits to be killed (20 damage/hit), while WX with maxed-out HP modules will take 30 hits to take down. Or a difference of over 300% between the two characters.

 

However, if both characters have, say, 20 pierogis and are eating them whenever needed, then the average character will need 48 hits to be taken down, while a max-HP WX will take 70 hits to take down. Only about 45% more hits than the player with 150 HP. This is why people have been saying that having such a high HP stat isn't that good, because ultimately the healing items that most other characters have access too are going to be much more effective at keeping you alive than having a health pool that would make the average Dark Souls boss blush.

 

Also, you kind of missed the point of the post. if you have a max HP WX-78, then you're only going to have that HP. You won't have any of the other perks that come with WX's modules, such as free light/night vision, speed bonus, or temperature immunity. The other characters that Egg mentioned might not be as tanky as a WX, but they have other perks in addition to the health. Wigfrid has her vampirism and moderate damage bonus/resistance, Wolfgang has his X-treme damage and the ability to wear marble armor for free, and Wortox has the ability to heal groups and can get I-frames with well timed dodges. All of these perks also help make the characters more tanky without just needing more HP.

[Mike23Ua]

Bottom Line is Anything with the potential of 600hp & the Ability of Passive Health Regeneration- should be the one that has to find unconventional methods of healing.. NOT WORMWOOD.

And because WX is a Robot- Food Items & Healing Items probably.. Shouldn’t.. heal it?

I suggested this as a Downside because it could’ve played into WX78’s new beta circuits and such- As in getting hit by enemies could “knock loose” causing something like 50% movement speed to reduce to like 35% movement speed because it would be like something plugged halfway into a wall socket that isn’t getting its full connection or it could even completely De-Socket it’s Upgrades causing major Durability lost (25%) MEANWHILE- “Safely Extracting” them Yourself could have a buff in Durability & reward the player for being cautious. (5-10%)

And last but not least: WX78’s Idle animation implies it was very poorly put together & could fall apart at any moment.

[Theukon-dos]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bottom Line is Anything with the potential of 600hp & the Ability of Passive Health Regeneration- should be the one that has to find unconventional methods of healing.. NOT WORMWOOD.

Except WX-78 can't have 600 HP and passive regen over time. Having the passive regen requires 2 module slots. AKA the same module slots that the health modules need.

Also the health regen is kind of bad. Healing 1 HP per 15 seconds or 16 HP/day. Not bad if you're only getting into the occasional scuffle now and then. Not something you can rely on while facing down gods.

Also Also you need jelly beans to make the passive regen circuit. So making it WX's main source of healing is practically suicidal. You'd be better off constantly dying and reviving with life giving amulets for healing than using the Dronemaster circuit.

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And because WX is a Robot- Food Items & Healing Items probably.. Shouldn’t.. heal it?

I suggested this as a Downside because it could’ve played into WX78’s new beta circuits and such- As in getting hit by enemies could “knock loose” causing something like 50% movement speed to reduce to like 35% movement speed because it would be like something plugged halfway into a wall socket that isn’t getting its full connection or it could even completely De-Socket it’s Upgrades causing major Durability lost (25%) MEANWHILE- “Safely Extracting” them Yourself could have a buff in Durability & reward the player for being cautious. (5-10%)

You seem to be caught up on the whole "Massive HP pool and health regen" bit. While your suggestion would make sense from looking at those in a vacuum, the problem is that WX doesn't only have the health circuits. And in fact I'd say that the HP circuits are probably some of the less useful ones.

Night vision, Speed Bonus, Heating, Cooling, electric retaliation. Ect. Are all perks that WX can choose instead of health augmentation. So balancing WX around said health augmentation would only seve to make it so that health are the only modules that get used. Well that an speed I suppose.

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And last but not least: WX78’s Idle animation implies it was very poorly put together & could fall apart at any moment.

You got me there.

[Left 4 Sharkb8]

On 4/17/2022 at 8:07 PM, bigGMIW said:

I would have to disagree, since this would make basically any module other than speed even less valuable as you would just lose your utility modules for dumb stuff. I don't entirely like the idea of WX78 just being a 1.5x speed character and people use them for nothing else. I also hate the idea that we should balance around PVP where its never been the point of the game and a small community like that would make mods to balance around it anyways.

Balance around pvp is absolutely a terrible idea, but I do hope that they tweak pvp at some point to make it more playable...