Wolfgang was (almost) perfect before the recent patch

[zaptrap]

The most recent patch removed Wolfgang's mightiness loss when getting attacked. I feel like this should be reverted because that way it made Wolfgang more interesting and not as easy to play. Instead of just holding f, you would be rewarded by either kiting or attacking with a dumbbell (and still get more dps than Wilson). The only change I would have made is that Wolfgang wouldn't lose mightiness from getting hit when he was in normal or wimpy form. With that change, even if Wolfgang would just facetank everything, he would still get more dps than Wilson because he would go back up to mighty form anyway, and never go to wimpy because he wouldn't lose mightiness when in normal form, thus still allowing tanking to be viable. Also, the animation for powering up and down should be removed completely during combat to allow for seamless transitions, kinda like Wanda. (or at least limited to just lifting the dumbbell).

[Yuuko]

I liked it too - but I'm not sure that's the way to go.  The issues with the system was multiple hits could lead to you losing mighty instantly, and when you gain / lost mighty you're stuck in place, vulnerable while you flex.  I think basing the mightiness loss on damage *after* armor is a good step, especially since one of his perks is to wear marble suit.  Perhaps make the animation for gaining / losing mighty invulnerable, at least when its triggered by taking / dealing damage.

If they did these I think we'd be good again.  idk how easy they are to do though, and this is already OT for Klei putting work into Wolfgang.  If they just leave this part out I'm not gonna complain.

[oregu]

yes, and bone armor would be more potentially useful, then

[Toroic]

I think tuning the mightiness loss to not be crushing for new players while not being trivial for skilled players would be very difficult.

There is already a character who is built for high risk high reward melee combat, and it’s wanda.

Wolfgang was never going to be more fun to kite with than wanda, and if he is below average for CC, why play someone whose primary perk is his damage?

Wanda is kite focused and had amazing utility

Wigfrid is tank focused and has group buffs and cheap armor

Wolfgang has always been above average at both but provided little to other characters, and he remains that way now.

[De_Gatherer]

It seems a shame that the mighty loss on hit mechanic was removed. I was really looking forward to playing it on console.

The feature wasn’t perfect but many people did suggest, that the amount lost should be halved if the player is using armor and I do believe that would have been a step in the right direction. Now with this mechanic removed, what real downside is there for Wolfgang? Mind you I didn’t play the beta, but this feature genuinely got me excited to play as him again. 

[Guille6785]

I didn't mind the concept itself but I think it doesn't fit wolfgang specifically since it contradicts the exact playstyle that he encourages

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, De_Gatherer said:

Now with this mechanic removed, what real downside is there for Wolfgang?

You need to play reverse Woodie who eats small things like honey instead of large things like bacon & eggs to make proper use of your power, you require (minor) time and resource investment to be able to use your power at all with neglecting it debuffing you into wimpy form, he has uninterruptable transition animations whenever he gains or loses might levels which can get him hit potentially multiple times, he loses sanity considerably faster than other characters, he loses more hunger than other characters (especially while using a gym), he's probably using an inventory slot for a dumbbell which is big when there's only 15 slots, and maybe more I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

Compare his enormous list of downsides to other characters like "Takes slightly longer to fight shadow creatures" or "If it's Winter and you don't have a thermal stone and you're wearing insulated clothing you'll freeze very slightly faster". He might not be a hard character, but outside of like 3 characters none of them are particularly difficult or have notable downsides.

[QuartzBeam]

9 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

he loses more hunger than other characters

Huh? Wolfgang doesn't have a hunger drain modifier anymore.

 

9 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

he loses sanity considerably faster than other characters

That is kinda neutralized by having a critter.

[Cheggf]

Just now, QuartzBeam said:

Huh? Wolfgang doesn't have a hunger drain modifier anymore.

Wasn't it lowered to 1.33x? Either way the rest still applies and he loses a lot of hunger on a gym.

[QuartzBeam]

Just now, Cheggf said:

Wasn't it lowered to 1.33x?

He completely lost the faster hunger drain in the initial rework, and I've seen no mention of him gaining it back since.

[Dextops]

i liked it, just wish it would've been tuned or replaced with something else

[GrapeVruit]

I'm glad but also a little sad about it. The mightiness lost on hit was pretty interesting idea, while you can gain might really quickly, if you fumble too much in combat, you'll go from hero to zero real quick. For day to day combat, this wasn't too big a deal, you lost a little bit of might and only really went down a form if you REALLY fumbled with fighting mobs. However for certain bosses, this downside was just too punishing.

It took 3 hits from Deerclops and Dragonfly to go down to normal, CC would obliterate your might if you got hit with its spin attack and lasers, and it was impossible kill bee queen without cheesing it with pan flutes. I get these guys are meant to be strong and the downside could be negated if you just tanked them, but for people like me who kite, you still can take damage from time to time, and sometimes it's not bad to tank here and there. I just feel like there should be just a little room for error. There have been times where I'd lose might, try getting it back by lifting dumbbells and fighting mobs, become locked in place by Wolfgang's growing animation and proceeded to be hit again. 

This downside also negates two of Wolfgang's positives: His higher maximum health and not being slowed down by the marble suit. What's the point in having a high health pool when you avoid most of the damage. What's the point of using the marble suit if you get slowed down to a crawl when taking 2-3 hits? People shouldn't be forced to play so cautiously for the character that is meant to be pure muscle. 

I think it would be better if Wolfgang could lessen the amount lost by wearing armor, make it so that you could use his dumbells in his normal form, and make the transforming animation cancelable. I believe that downside could work for Wolfgang, it was just way too punishing for what it was.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

IMO:

- losing mightiness per hit was way more interesting but didnt fit that much his character. With tweks @Toros did will be funnier 

- the increase of passive mightiness lose is tedious, flat and nearly as interesting as the previous downside. Is only a good downside when you are running away of tons of enemies (for example if you are as idiot as me and dont have the patience to way the nightmere cycle to end) because you will get stunlock by the transition animation which will happen earlier with the new meter drain but most of the time is just an excuse to force you to pumb your muscles, not very interesting

- now the gym is nearly pointless with the changes made to dumbbells and working giving mightiness. i only see it useful when you will receive a hound wave (which now happens way less often)  or for unexperience players that have easier time getting food than farming marble/purple gems+thulecite. Maybe is time to give to the gym the ability to increase other characters strength (just a minor buff), he doesnt have much cooperative perks, abigail got a damage buff because potato cooperative so why not wolf?

- the refresh goal was "to balance wolf so he isnt the only option" (0 sense but ok) but now he can be mighty since day one without need of dumbbells neither extra food since you will raise the meter by mining the few rocks you need in day 1 for your progression and with the rockbell you can keep the meter high while raising it fighting mobs on your way. Basically now is basically a character that does everything better than wilson like characters with few effort which isnt bad, dont get me wrong, but is hard to understand why they create this delicated situation just to make him better (except for the advantage of the speed in certain boss fights like BQ, second phase Klaus or Shadow Rook tier3) than the DS single player version since you get more constant damage+working speed+rowing speed+isulation, etc for lower price because the hunger drain was removed. I like that he is the strong man = the """""OP""""" (i hope this many quotes marks would be enough) character as he should be since it really fits his character to be stronger in many tasks but im just pointed how weird it is what klei did with him in the 1st rework to just end like he is now after many weeks, im glad klei took the fun route instead of just the nerfing route to fix him as they should did since the beguinning because the only thing needed for his refresh was making him funnier even if that means making him stronger

- right now he has 2 downside like perks= taking care of the meter which drops faster than before (nothing crazy but not interesting as i sad many times in this post) and higher sanity drain. The sanity drain is what really fits his lore and persona but i think they didnt bring anything really interesting, just increased a number. Sure, now is more noticeable (as it should be since in the DS version you didnt even notice the drain + having 300 sanity didnt fit his "has a lot of phobias"/"afraid of dark" personality) because now a tam doesnt make you recover sanity at dusk and night and in the caves you will be constanly fighting shadows but this downside could have been something else, something more elaborate, dont ask me what because idk but just pointed that isnt so interesting, you now will need to wear tam more often, CC crown isnt as good as effective as before and you need to bring sanity food for certain fights if you dont want to deal with shadows. Is more noticeable but nothing spectacular, not really complaining since im okey with this change

- now is waaay more fun than the live version and has a very good, and waaay less tedious, early game so is a win win but it could be funnier with the previous downside (tunned down obv) even if that doesnt really fit his character

[Pe Dabliu]

It seemed like it was such an easy fix for wolf, idk why things went this way. Keep the mightyness drop rate the same level as the last patch, and halve the mighty lost when hit while wearing armour, done. You can still tank, but at the cost of armor, and kite to get around that. And if you're not working or fighting, you can still keep your mightyness for a reasonable time.

[MondayNight]

He has enough downsides as-is. The significant Mighty! loss on being hit no-matter-the-armor was very antithetical to his play-style - often as the tank of his team, alongside Wigfrid (innate damage reduction) and WX (consistent hp pool when fully upgraded) - as well as with his Marble Armor pro when Mighty, making him prone to huge, in-chain, further Mighty loss to the point of being stun in his transition-animation towards death. Akin initial Wendy's "glass canon" rework, was a concept appealing to some tiny minority of efficient, advanced players (with good connectivity and/or playing mostly personal servers - no ping issues) while it broke the character for bulk player-base at large. Removing this mandatory fixed-value Mighty! drain on taking damage is the right choice.

[Guille6785]

48 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Akin initial Wendy's "glass canon" rework, was a concept appealing to some tiny minority of efficient, advanced players (with good connectivity and/or playing mostly personal servers - no ping issues) while it broke the character for bulk player-base at large.

ftfy

[ShadowDuelist]

8 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

That is kinda neutralized by having a critter.

how come?

4 hours ago, Dextops said:

i liked it, just wish it would've been tuned or replaced with something else

Well the passive mightiness loss is now higher. Although I didn't play him since this patch so I don't know how noticeable that is.
I get that maybe you meant "another con mechanic" but the devs seem to be dealing with a lot of stuff to focus on brainstorming about Wolfgang again,.

[QuartzBeam]

Just now, ShadowDuelist said:

how come?

Wolfgang has 1.25x sanity drain from night normally, but it falls to 1.10x if there is another player or follower mob within 16 units.

Critters are a follower mob, and an invulnerable one at that.

(They also count in his insanity aura modifier calculation, but their effect is less noticeable there.)

[Guille6785]

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Well the passive mightiness loss is now higher. Although I didn't play him since this patch so I don't know how noticeable that is.

it takes about 4 minutes to go from 100 to 75 mightiness with a full belly now from what I've seen, iirc it used to be about 6 and a half minutes before but I'm gonna need someone to help me compare the numbers

[Toroic]

5 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

how come?

Well the passive mightiness loss is now higher. Although I didn't play him since this patch so I don't know how noticeable that is.
I get that maybe you meant "another con mechanic" but the devs seem to be dealing with a lot of stuff to focus on brainstorming about Wolfgang again,.

It's pretty noticeable.  Base drain is 1 per 5 seconds, being 1 per 10 seconds if you stay above 150 hunger.  That means that mighty form lasts 4 minutes and 10 seconds if you're above 150 hunger and doing nothing to maintain mightiness.

It'll last 2 minutes between 100 and 150 hunger, and quickly ramps up until your mighty form can last about 15 seconds while starving.

I've been told it's roughly 3x as fast as it used to be in terms of drain.

[Cheggf]

21 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Well the passive mightiness loss is now higher. Although I didn't play him since this patch so I don't know how noticeable that is.

Because of how much mightiness you get from fighting and working it's extremely easy to stay topped off there. Just 1 swing every 10 seconds will keep you even. You only really lose might when you aren't doing those actions, so it's like a nerf to his piggyback perk.

[QuartzBeam]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

Because of how much mightiness you get from fighting and working it's extremely easy to stay topped off there. Just 1 swing every 10 seconds will keep you even. You only really lose might when you aren't doing those actions, so it's like a nerf to his piggyback perk.

And his Ice Cube perk. :P

[Cloakingsumo198]

17 minutes ago, Toros said:

Base drain is 1 per 5 seconds, being 1 per 10 seconds if you stay above 150 hunger.  That means that mighty form lasts 4 minutes and 10 seconds if you're above 150 hunger and doing nothing to maintain mightiness.

It'll last 2 minutes between 100 and 150 hunger, and quickly ramps up until your mighty form can last about 15 seconds while starving.

Interesting...

With dumbbells and gym being buffed up along with regular everyday tasks helping fill up/maintain mighty.

I wonder how far they'll push that drain to enforce an active playstyle. Seems pretty good.

[Toroic]

8 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Interesting...

With dumbbells and gym being buffed up along with regular everyday tasks helping fill up/maintain mighty.

I wonder how far they'll push that drain to enforce an active playstyle. Seems pretty good.

You get a 4 second grace period before the drain starts after any increase to your mightiness, and carrying a dumbbell while moving pauses the drain, so where it becomes an issue is if your hunger gets low or you are using your hands for a lantern or a cane.

I personally don't see much reason to use a gym with dumbbells being inexpensive and highly effective with good durability, I prefer to just do manual labor and combat to increase my mightiness while accomplishing tasks.

[Cannoli]

Well, I hated Wolfgang Beta. Too difficult to fight Fuelweaver, Bee Queen, Celestial, Evil Twins and Dragon Fly without lose mightiness. (than stunlock, than die).

IMPOSSIBLE to kill Shadow Bosses (because the Bishop). So, for me, the end of the terrible idea (lose power when hit) is a big win.

The passive drain of mightiness and specially the sanity issues are big problems enough to deal with them. The majority of characters don't have any real downside, like Wigfrid, Willow, WX, Wicker, Wendy, Woodie, Winona...

For me, Wolfgang is ok now.