How broken is Tropical Experience?

[Castiliano]

For years I try to understand why this mod allowed itself to be so heavy. It would be amazing if the creator had simply focused on two different mods, one focused on Shipwrecked content and the other on Hamlet content, but he totally lost his grip and couldn't stop. As someone said here before: quantity trumped quality..

I tried the options to use only a part of the content (just shipwrecked or hamlet) at a time and it was still weird, different from both DLCs. I hate the argument that the mod is fully 'configurable' as it isn't, it's actually polluted. 

[maradyne]

2 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

If most of us weren't dirt poor we'd probably hire programmer help with modding instead of ripping things apart, but alas - post it on public and it belongs to the public.

 

...I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure where I stand on this stuff.
But just to give a bit of perspective...

With art, if someone clearly traces over someone else's work, while the result might technically be different, claiming that it's original work lands somewhere between "Wow, that's pretty yikes, my dude." and plagiarism that occasionally leads to actual lawsuits.
But trace someone else's work, say that it's traced, credit the person, and don't charge anything? Then...it depends on who you ask.

Fanart of an existing thing like a game character can make money via commission, but not resale.
And because of the way that DMCA is written, even if it's legal, effectively, making any fan work is a gamble with everything connected to the identity you post it under.

 

Music parodies/remixes are ok to make...unless the original creator says not to do it before you've finished. And that in itself is debatable, and depends on where you live.

 

 

Code is in a similar boat to other creative works; the work itself is just less recognizable to the public.
If you yoink parts of the creation without asking or at least crediting, you're inviting every potential problem that comes with that. And every creator's going to have their own personal stance on what's ok, whether they're backed by a company or working on an individual level.

That's just a cost that the person yoinking the work has to take into consideration.
It's a them problem.

[-Variant]

15 hours ago, . . . said:

i put thousands of hours into my modding projects and i am flattered if someone reuploads my mod without telling me and i even comment saying nice things if i see it. i dont care at all if anyone took code or textures from my mod. and from my experience every modder i saw always rejects when asked for permission to copy stuff so thats why most people who just wanna have some fun just copy without asking!

If you're flattered with someone taking your stuff and using it without asking you that's perfectly fine, I've nothing against that.

Though when its my stuff that I worked hard on to produce that's just taken without me being notified and is being used almost 1:1 without any sort of creative strife I get a bit bummed out. I spent that time and effort making those assets, I spent the time with my team developing this unique and interesting mechanic, making sure it was fun and making sure it was balanced well, a lot of time and effort went into this mechanic that someone just, took. And dropped into their mod. 

I wouldn't have an issue if they had come to me and asked to use it! Not at all, I've had a ton of people be really nice and ask to use my stuff, I've almost never denied someone in this manner!
It doesn't help it falls into both the legal and moral grey boundaries. Morally it tells me this person is perfectly fine with taking another person's hard developed content, and legally it... isn't allowed. Uploading to the Steam Workshop gives you the legal copywrite to said content. Steam is very protective of this system and is the reason why we're given the tools to take action and report things ourselves. 

 

TLDR: Its fine if you're okay with your stuff being taken, my friends and I aren't and its honestly bad practice to take someone else' work without asking.

[SecretPizzaMan]

6 hours ago, maradyne said:

 

...I don't recall seeing this in any of the multitude of TOS's, nor anyone else ever mentioning anything like this.

Because it isn't, at least not in the Eula.

[jan Mele]

13 minutes ago, -Variant said:

TLDR: Its fine if you're okay with your stuff being taken, my friends and I aren't and its honestly bad practice to take someone else' work without asking.

Yeah, but i asked why is it.

[Nettalie]

2 minutes ago, jan Mele said:

Yeah, but i asked why is it.

Did you just ask why it's bad practice to take someone's stuff without consent? I.e. stealing?

[-Variant]

Just now, jan Mele said:

Yeah, but i asked why is it.

I think the upmost first thing to mention is that it is illegal. Which seems pretty blunt.

Secondly, there's a matter of morals like I mentioned in my previous post. Taking someone's' stuff without asking is immoral and wrong. Why steal when you can just, ask, or even reference? 

Thirdly, It's just not fair for those involved, to have their stuff they worked hard on taken. I can't really explain in greater detail because these are basics, you just don't take things from people. Especially when there's more morally viable and legal ways of going about it. 

[SecretPizzaMan]

5 hours ago, jan Mele said:

Why?? Because the fact that some people have to do less to reach the desired result seems unfair to you?? This is just selfish. Is it because of the fact that something you made is copied devalues your effort for you?? I really don't know.

What modders here are saying is that they want people to ask for their permission. That isn't selfish, they put a lot of time and work and dedication into something they love just for someone to take it without a second thought. 

If I had made a mod then I would like people to ask me for permission for using parts of my mod for their own. Am I selfish for wanting to be aware for how my work gets used? Am I selfish for wanting people to ask for my permission? No. No one is selfish for that. The carpenter isn't selfish for wanting their work to be their own, even if they didn't make the tools.

 

[Bumber64]

16 hours ago, . . . said:

when klei allows modders to use basically the entire code of their game... i find it petty and pathetic for modders to throw a tantrum if someone copy pasted code from their public and free mod

Key word: Allows

I.e., grants permission.

[jan Mele]

39 minutes ago, -Variant said:

I think the upmost first thing to mention is that it is illegal.

Ik, bruh.

38 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

What modders here are saying is that they want people to ask for their permission. That isn't selfish, they put a lot of time and work and dedication into something they love just for someone to take it without a second thought. 

The carpenter isn't selfish for wanting their work to be their own, even if they didn't make the tools.

Do I have to explain why taking someone's property is different from copying someone's property? Sure, if the copy is fairly similar, then, especially if you aren't given credit, it would be possible that someone searches for something your work does, finds the copy and stops searching for alternatives, even if your copy of your work is free it would leave them with less chances of discovering your other works that you DO profit of, or just causes them to find it later. That would suck. Complaining about something else is like complaining about the fact that people create using memories of something they expirienced.

[SecretPizzaMan]

48 minutes ago, jan Mele said:

Ik, bruh.

Do I have to explain why taking someone's property is different from copying someone's property? Sure, if the copy is fairly similar, then, especially if you aren't given credit, it would be possible that someone searches for something your work does, finds the copy and stops searching for alternatives, even if your copy of your work is free it would leave them with less chances of discovering your other works that you DO profit of, or just causes them to find it later. That would suck. Complaining about something else is like complaining about the fact that people create using memories of something they experienced.

False equivalence. If someone makes something out of their OWN memories and experiences then there's no problem there. This isn't copying. What is copying however, is using assets other people made without their permission or crediting them. 

I'm sorry if my reply seems lacking. I don't understand what you are trying to say exactly, I maybe there is a misunderstanding.

[jan Mele]

8 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

False equivalence. If someone makes something out of their OWN memories and experiences then there's no problem there. This isn't copying. What is copying however, is using assets other people made without their permission or crediting them. 

I'm sorry if my reply seems lacking. I don't understand what you are trying to say exactly, I maybe there is a misunderstanding.

I'm just saying that I agree that exact copies and just similar things made without permission are kinda bad (I'll add that it depends)

Having the same mobs doesn't mean the experience is the same, the mobs can exist in different contexts. I do agree credit is needed.  Sorry if my message is confusing.

[SecretPizzaMan]

2 minutes ago, jan Mele said:

I'm just saying that I agree that exact copies and just similar things made without permission are kinda bad (I'll add that it depends)

Having the same mobs doesn't mean the experience is the same, the mobs can exist in different contexts. I do agree credit is needed.  Sorry if my message is confusing.

Yeah while I don't agree exactly, this is much better. I think it's best to leave it at that.

[Theukon-dos]

9 hours ago, jan Mele said:

Why?? Because the fact that some people have to do less to reach the desired result seems unfair to you?? This is just selfish. Is it because of the fact that something you made is copied devalues your effort for you?? I really don't know.

It's not selfish. It's not wanting your work to be stolen. How would you like it if someone stole the bike you'd spent weeks saving up for? Or if someone with a better marketing department blatently plagerized their work. Is it unfair to the theif to be upset that they had "To do less to reach the desired result?" No. No it's not.

8 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

If you do coding for a mod and post it for public to use and play, the thing becomes kinda like public property. Mods are usually made with the intent of adding some additional experience to the game to have some fun if not made to make money. In this case it doesn't give a reason to have to be mad about someone reusing some codes or assets if their make their own original mod, no? It doesn't excuse either the behavior of taking things that aren't yours, adding that code/assets to your mod and claiming that you've done it all on your own.

If most of us weren't dirt poor we'd probably hire programmer help with modding instead of ripping things apart, but alas - post it on public and it belongs to the public. If the copypaster claims that mod as their work the owner can always call on their lies.

Overall, I don't think there should be anyone angry over this stuff but I don't know the full legal issue of this either. Not like any of you will earn money from this so... Everyone can suck it up and move on.

What? Why would something being Publicly available make it "Public Property"? Are the videos on Youtube public property? Or how about the books at your local library? Are those public library?

This is also just factually wrong in general. Under both US and Canadian copyright law any creative work is automatically protected under copyright. And this includes game modifications, even if they're dependent on the developer's own copyright.

[jan Mele]

13 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

It's not selfish. It's not wanting your work to be stolen. How would you like it if someone stole the bike you'd spent weeks saving up for? Or if someone with a better marketing department blatently plagerized their work. Is it unfair to the theif to be upset that they had "To do less to reach the desired result?" No. No it's not.

"modified a copy of your free modification without asking" and "someone with a better marketing department blatently plagerized their work" are not the same, the latter can be a variation of the former, but I do agree that it is p bad. if done in a different manner, the former can be made without causing substantial/predictable difference in the original author's success. It just depends.

13 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

What? Why would something being Publicly available make it "Public Property"? Are the videos on Youtube public property? Or how about the books at your local library? Are those public library?

This is also just factually wrong in general. Under both US and Canadian copyright law any creative work is automatically protected under copyright. And this includes game modifications, even if they're dependent on the developer's own copyright.

yup

I probably should have specified previously, lol

[GuyNamedChris]

19 hours ago, . . . said:

i find it petty and pathetic for modders to throw a tantrum if someone copy pasted code from their public and free mod

Sorry but I gotta disagree here, personally I'd like to both give permission to a person if they were gonna use some of my work in their mod, and ask to be credited for what was used.

Despite being a public and free mod, developers are still entitled to their work. It depends on the person how lenient they are in allowing others to use their work, some won't mind it being taken (like a few stray mods I can name in Tropical Experience), others will be a bit more heavy-handed on those who didn't ask or credit them, which is entirely within their right.
Hence why Steam even has an easy DMCA system in place if someone were to steal parts of a mod without permission.

[. . .]

3 hours ago, GuyNamedChris said:

Despite being a public and free mod, developers are still entitled to their work.

Saying modders "own" code which they most likely copied and pasted from Klei's files is a pretty big stretch. For artwork it's understandable, not for code which is hardly unique and all ends up looking the same when you're trying to achieve similar things.

7 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Key word: Allows

I.e., grants permission.

that doesn't change anything, shows that most modders are still petty compared to klei lmao

7 hours ago, -Variant said:

bad practice to take someone else' work without asking.

The reason most people reupload other mods and copy code from other mods is because 90% of modders when you ask for permission don't allow it. That's why someone who just wants to have more fun in this game just does that instead, and I don't blame them one bit.

In the end if any modder doesn't want their precious code to be used in another mod then don't upload it anywhere public and keep it private.

14 hours ago, maradyne said:

...I don't recall seeing this in any of the multitude of TOS's, nor anyone else ever mentioning anything like this.

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I saw something along the lines of they can do whatever they want with any content uploaded to the workshop either by Steam or Klei.

[Theukon-dos]

24 minutes ago, . . . said:

Saying modders "own" code which they most likely copied and pasted from Klei's files is a pretty big stretch. For artwork it's understandable, not for code which is hardly unique and all ends up looking the same when you're trying to achieve similar things.

24 minutes ago, . . . said:

that doesn't change anything, shows that most modders are still petty compared to klei lmao

The difference is that Klei has direct incentive to allow modding. By giving users access to the game's code and tools, the foster a much larger community and gives the game some self-sustain between updates. What does, say, Legion have to gain by letting people use their code. Hmmm?

24 minutes ago, . . . said:

The reason most people reupload other mods and copy code from other mods is because 90% of modders when you ask for permission don't allow it. That's why someone who just wants to have more fun in this game just does that instead, and I don't blame them one bit.

Here's an idea. If someone doesn't give you permission to use something. Then don't use it. Because that's how permission works. If you had a son, and you told them that they're not allowed to have cookies before dinner. Then you don't say "Well he just wanted a treat, don't blame him" if he sneaks into the cookie jar before dinner.

Also, if someone "Just wants to have fun", then they're allowed to do that. People can use any bits of code they desire, so long as the mod is set to private. 

24 minutes ago, . . . said:

In the end if any modder doesn't want their precious code to be used in another mod then don't upload it anywhere public and keep it private.

Tell me, how are they supposed to distribute their mod for people to enjoy while also safeguarding the code? 

I'd also like to reiterate that stealing or reuploading a mod without permission is literally illegal under both US and Canadian copyright law.

24 minutes ago, . . . said:

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I saw something along the lines of they can do whatever they want with any content uploaded to the workshop either by Steam or Klei.

I'ma need a source for that. Because I couldn't find it anywhere I looked.

[. . .]

5 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

What does, say, Legion have to gain by letting people use their code. Hmmm?

It allows people worse at lua to get better at lua and potentially make great mods too, but ofc you wouldn't want that would you. Some people want to make a mod, but don't have the time or don't want to spend several weeks/months or even a few years to learn how to do cool mods. My little brother for example doesn't know lua at all but by copy pasting an existing biome mod he was able to replace the textures and add a few stuff to spawn in it and it brought the greatest smile to his face and gave him happiness and fun. That's what I care about and the people that have experiences like that, not modders which are basically grouchy old men telling people to get off their lawn.

5 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

If you had a son, and you told them that they're not allowed to have cookies before dinner. Then you don't say "Well he just wanted a treat, don't blame him" if he sneaks into the cookie jar before dinner.

I would pat my son on the head and tell him he did good !

11 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I'd also like to reiterate that stealing or reuploading a mod without permission is literally illegal under both US and Canadian copyright law.

lol i doubt the law even knows what a "mod" is

12 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I'ma need a source for that.

 

12 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure

 

[GuyNamedChris]

40 minutes ago, . . . said:

The reason most people reupload other mods and copy code from other mods is because 90% of modders when you ask for permission don't allow it. That's why someone who just wants to have more fun in this game just does that instead, and I don't blame them one bit.

In the end if any modder doesn't want their precious code to be used in another mod then don't upload it anywhere public and keep it private.

Please just refer to Klei's policies on modding.

Spoiler

 

 

 

[. . .]

Just now, GuyNamedChris said:

Please just refer to Klei's policies on modding.

Cool, that has literally nothing to do with me though.

[Theukon-dos]

6 minutes ago, . . . said:

It allows people worse at lua to get better at lua and potentially make great mods too, but ofc you wouldn't want that would you. Some people want to make a mod, but don't have the time or don't want to spend several weeks/months or even a few years to learn how to do cool mods. My little brother for example doesn't know lua at all but by copy pasting an existing biome mod he was able to replace the textures and add a few stuff to spawn in it and it brought the greatest smile to his face and gave him happiness and fun. That's what I care about and the people that have experiences like that, not modders which are basically grouchy old men telling people to get off their lawn.

Ok. And he can do that. So long as he doesn't upload the mod to the steam workshop. Again, nobody's going to complain about private use mods. Hell, my first dip into modding was done by using another mod as a base. But I never uploaded it, and thus nobody's mad or feels cheated.

Quote

I would pat my son on the head and tell him he did good !

Why? He explicitly went against your orders and ruined dinner. That's terrible parenting.

Quote

lol i doubt the law even knows what a "mod" is

Already covered this

4 minutes ago, . . . said:

Cool, that has literally nothing to do with me though.

Says the person literally encouraging people to break the law.

 

Also, changing your PfP like that is not a good image, let me tell you.

[. . .]

I don't appreciate you all dog piling on me it's annoying as hell.

Tropical Experience is a great mod, one of the top 5 mods up there with myth worlds, that's all, bye.

8 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Says the person literally encouraging people to break the law.

Thanks for making stuff up about me, great stuff dude.

[Theukon-dos]

12 minutes ago, . . . said:

I don't appreciate you all dog piling on me it's annoying as hell.

Tropical Experience is a great mod, one of the top 5 mods up there with myth worlds, that's all, bye.

Maybe we're dog piling you because you're wrong.

Quote

Thanks for making stuff up about me, great stuff dude.

>Mods are protected under copyright laws

>It's illegal to break copyright laws

>You're saying that it's completely fine to steal code from other mods which are protected under copyright laws

Not much to make up there, now is it.

[. . .]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Maybe we're dog piling you because you're wrong.

Not only you're harassing me for my personal beliefs, but you're derailing this topic too. Great work.

Don't quote me anymore.