Why was wolfgang op?

[Well-met]

the speed boost was the byproduct of a general, non-character related scale algorythm and judging from klei's moves it was clearly an oversight so poof it's gone

[Theukon-dos]

Another thing I'd like to point out, in regard to preparations, is that Wanda is the only character who wants to and benefits from rushing the archives, while setting up crock pots is a thing that most characters are going to want to do anyways. Nobody goes "I'm Wolfgang, so I should get some crock pots set up" because pretty much everyone wants crock pots set up for healing, sanity, and better food management. Even miss timelord herself wants crock pots because she benefits from the hunger and sanity. This means that Wolfgang doesn't lose out on much in his preparations. If that person was playing Wilson or Wendy, then they would have made the crock pots anyways.

 

But again, Wanda is the only character who wants to rush the archives. No one else has any reason to go into them so early on. Meaning that she has to add going to them onto her already busy schedule, which can easily take 2-3 days. And that's assuming that you manage to find a worm hole next to the lunar grotto or blue mushroom biome while exploring the surface. I've had plenty of Wanda worlds where I just didn't run into the right biomes, and thus needed to spend even longer trying to find them. 

[Cheggf]

7 minutes ago, Well-met said:

the speed boost was the byproduct of a general, non-character related scale algorythm and judging from klei's moves it was clearly an oversight so poof it's gone

Now if only a certain child with a dead sister's interaction with large quadrupeds which resemble buffalo was given the same treatment.

1 minute ago, Theukon-dos said:

Another thing I'd like to point out, in regard to preparations, is that Wanda is the only character who wants to and benefits from rushing the archives

Everyone wants to rush the ruins, which is way better than archives on Wanda, so this entire weird premise makes no sense.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

The difference is that Wanda doesn't negate her downsides just by existing. As said in my previous post, Wolfgang's perks mean that a moderately skilled player is going to have no trouble getting food or managing their sanity. However, Wanda needs to manage her health for max damage, but her only source of healing are watches that restore equivalent of 20HP on a 2 minute cooldown.

She also needs a lot more prep work than Wolfgang. Wolfgang just needs to set up a crockpot and a few farms, while Wanda has too cave dive, make magic machines, farm nightmare fuel, farm theulicite, ect.

And I think it doesn't matter that a moderately skilled player can pick Wolfgang and do things that Wolfgang is supposed to be good at...  Anyone can pick Maxwell or Woodie can farm lots of logs, isn't that why you pick them?  A good player on Wanda will far surpass anything a moderately skilled player can do even on old Woflgang.

The prep work is actually pretty trim.  If you know how to find mudlands => ruins, you can do the same thing to find mudlands => blue mushroom, and just come up through the cave exit.  I regularly have time to explore the upper world, get AC and have time to kill dfly or bqueen before first autumn ends.  Due to Wolfgang being tethered to gym, using bad weights, or consuming purple gems (really harsh early game if you aren't lucky in graves or rush ruins, which is harder than archives) I think his set up is currently on par with Wanda except his perks are much worse.  While his damage is still 2x, without speed boost he is eclipsed by Wanda who has the range of the whip and back step watch over him at that point, even without a network of teleports.

Also a lot of prep on Wolfgang isn't even crock pots, its getting carrots, cactus, etc.  You want more smaller meals, not big meaty stews or even meatballs.  The prep is real, and even though every character needs to eat needing to do it 2-3x as much is still more.

26 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Another thing I'd like to point out, in regard to preparations, is that Wanda is the only character who wants to and benefits from rushing the archives, while setting up crock pots is a thing that most characters are going to want to do anyways. Nobody goes "I'm Wolfgang, so I should get some crock pots set up" because pretty much everyone wants crock pots set up for healing, sanity, and better food management. Even miss timelord herself wants crock pots because she benefits from the hunger and sanity. This means that Wolfgang doesn't lose out on much in his preparations. If that person was playing Wilson or Wendy, then they would have made the crock pots anyways.

 

But again, Wanda is the only character who wants to rush the archives. No one else has any reason to go into them so early on. Meaning that she has to add going to them onto her already busy schedule, which can easily take 2-3 days. And that's assuming that you manage to find a worm hole next to the lunar grotto or blue mushroom biome while exploring the surface. I've had plenty of Wanda worlds where I just didn't run into the right biomes, and thus needed to spend even longer trying to find them. 

Again - I don't think it matters that he could reach this with little prep.  Wendy spawns with Abigail ready to farm hordes of spiders, pigs, hounds, frogs and Wigfrid has 25% damage boost, along with sanity / life steal ALWAYS.  Why does Wolfgang need some arbitrary set up in place when he had continual, unending upkeep?  Wanda's set up / upkeep is much easier than Wolfgang now, yet Wolfgang's kit is very basic and flat.

I did a speed run between Wigfrid and new Wolfgang and surprise - Wigfrid's 25% damage bonus beat out Wolfgang's 2x...  In fact Wolfgang is put so far behind with his setup that he tied Willow who doesn't even have a damage mod...

Spoiler

 

I get that he needed a bit better of a down side, but I don't agree that he needed any set up requirements.  His kit is a better fit as an early game kit compared to Wanda's mid/late game kit.  If they simply removed his damage bonus against shadow monsters, and upped his sanity drain like the rework, it would have added the negative side to him without altering where he fit in the game balance wise.

[Blunty_x]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

I haven't read through all the comments and it's probably been addressed already, but had to chime in and say, Mike I like ya but your take on this has been Terrible,  seriously. Teach to adopt a pet? Refine cutstone? Seriously? Teaching that is more important than learning to manage his huge appetite and your available food and resources? Moving on. 

Wolfgang was "OP" for his strength and speed. He could also eat anything. His speed boost is a built in Magiluminscene that costs food instead of NM fuel it was also his best and only real utility out of battle and was the real reason to stuff your face all the time. Imagine seeing whole map in 5 days vs 9. Time is this game biggest resource and Wolfgang could Jumpstart anyworld for success into the later stage of the game for any character by spring if played right.

So by going mighty you got access to 300 health and 2x dmg that wasn't consistent, but with something like a bluecap made him OP. Wanted to rush ruins early? No problem pick the blue shroom biome quickly and proceed to destroy ruins, imagine blue shrooms eaten raw kept you at 300hp, full hunger, and close to the 2x dmg cap he had and he could kill shadow creatures in a few hits. His real downside of course was his hunger and sanity for the noobs, and I'm sure all of us experienced players have died to switching forms mid fight on occasion. His wimpy form lowered his max pool, so when you are low on heals and finished with combat you could heal hp and then get mighty to have full 300hp for less cost. 

In closing Wolfgang was the solo beast, the king of the constant, no frills, no BS mechanics just pure unadulterated strongman. New Wolfgang is alot of frills without the substance 

[abrocator]

11 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

His speed bonus, however, gave him an uncharacteristic advantage over other characters, where as long as he kept filling his stomach, he could travel everywhere faster, essentially translating to him doing most actions unfairly faster than most characters, something one can describe as 'overpowered'.

Guille has argued that old Wolfgang’s speed for general activities has been greatly exaggerated.

It takes time to gather 200% more food and you don’t always make a profit.

 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, abrocator said:

Guille has argued that old Wolfgang’s speed for general activities has been greatly exaggerated.

It takes time to gather 200% more food and you don’t always make a profit.

 

I believe using “faster at farm related RWYS stuff” was a BAD example on why they Nerfed him on Zark’s behalf.

Farming doesn’t really matter, what DOES Matter however is finishing fights in literally half the time or less AND having built in Walking Speed buffs that allow for easy dodging of enemy attacks.

With Speed removed from his kit, he now has to actually get movement speed items just like the rest of the character roster to avoid being hit.

Speed is gone.. dead and won’t be coming back (can we just give that part a rest already??) but now that Wolfgang’s Might now requires a little more effort then just eating food & even though he deals 2x damage has to sometimes “break” to get buff again: I’d love to see more small things done while being Mighty or even AVERAGE now there’s a thought..

Let AVERAGE Wolfgang Yeet Stone Dumbells instead of having all his power locked behind needing to be might first.

Wanda has 3 different age sprites Young, Mid, Old.. and each age sprite has different gameplay to them she deals more damage whilst old but at the same time- When Below 23 Age she chops wood faster. 
 

before Wanda existed Wolfgang always had his Wimpy, Average & Mighty forms.. Each of those (much like Wanda..) should have had their own pros/cons.

Basically the TL:DR Wanda & Wolfgang are 3 Characters in 1 and should be treated that way.

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

When Below 23 Age she chops wood faster. 

Okay but she doesn't...

[Cloakingsumo198]

It really depends since it wasn't the problem of gathering enough food but having the right food to sustain his hunger drain.

Having 2 stacks of meat isn't as a good as having a stack of meat and filler.

The faster eating animation from filler is just as important as eating at the right interval so not to waste the hunger value of food enless it could truly be wasted.

Spoilage time.

Crockpot dishes were important for extending food values and cheaply exiting wimpy form but couldn't be relied on for sustaining mighty form alone.  

Spoiler

Having a stack of perogies helps trivialize fights for everybody that's not Wanda, wormwood, warly. But that's wasteful eating it for hunger points alone.

Not to mention the time spent farming all the the resources to make a stack of crockpot dishes and spoilage timers.

Plus bunching berries together and farming potatoes was essentially idly growing mightiness time on the side.

Which if used smartly or just grown at insane amounts is huge time allowed to be spent mighty.

Hunting koalafants, decimating a beefalo herd, or farming pigs also allowed a quick boost to be mighty for atleast a decent while until those meat reserves ran out.

Spiders and hounds still provided food. Cooked monster meat does a measly -3 damage and -10 sanity loss which some people actually want to farm fuel.

But the hunger values add up, which is the most important thing overall.

Carrying too many types of food clogs inventory though so the best option is to just chug things that aren't the common pick up in the area.

But that's after getting situated.

 

 

 

Disclaimer

The only part barely talking about speed. 

I still don't know about early game though.  It's true that Wolfgang would maybe spend less time exploring because of his speed but he still had to do all the resource gathering animations at the same speed as everyone else.  Gathering rocks and wood wasn't faster arriving to them was, that was if you weren't grabbing twigs and grass on the way. Not to mention all the extra food you'll have to gather if it's berries and carrots with all the moments to much down.

Killing things fast probably makes up for that somewhere.

This isn't in relation to speedrunning don't care

[Duck986]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Okay but she doesn't...

It's just a unique Xbox mechanic that we, mortal PC players, don't have

[abrocator]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Farming doesn’t really matter, what DOES Matter however […]

Guille didn’t just debunk the ridiculous “better at farming” argument.  For example, old Wolfgang isn’t as fast as people think in the early game for exploration.  He also has numbers to back up his claims.

It would be interesting so see which is faster early game: Old Wolfgang or Wendy taming an ornery beefalo.

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Speed is gone.. dead and won’t be coming back (can we just give that part a rest already??)

Are you talking to yourself?  No one has said otherwise.

[Dextops]

4 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Old wolfgang had to consistently eat more than anybody else for his entire existence and continue to prep for his future endeavors.

and if you wanted to maintain regular form you had to deal with a nice 1.5x hunger multiplier with basically no perks

[BonesJrOfficial]

3 hours ago, Dextops said:

and if you wanted to maintain regular form you had to deal with a nice 1.5x hunger multiplier with basically no perks

Technically Weaker forms are a boost to healing if done before going back to Mighty form. But I can't really think of a 1.5x worthy perk outside of that, unless you consider 1.5x better because it's temporary relief from 3x as a place holder/ reserve for the Speed, Damage, and HP. 

[ZombieDupe]

19 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

The main argument behind his OP'ness was his speed, not his combat provice through his damage multiplier.

As you said, being better at combat doesn't translate to being overpowered, it's a flashy but niche ability and only the superficial critics focused on his max damage output through spicy volt goat jelly + blowdarts being OP. He is mighty but that is his main character trait, and that is what his rework focused on- if anything he is better at it now due to the constant multipliers of the might meter. He was buffed but he isn't OP now.

His speed bonus, however, gave him an uncharacteristic advantage over other characters, where as long as he kept filling his stomach, he could travel everywhere faster, essentially translating to him doing most actions unfairly faster than most characters, something one can describe as 'overpowered'. Whether speed really is such an important stat or not is irrelevant since it is perceived to be so by the vocal meta gamers and thus Wolfgang was considered OP by obtaining speed very cheaply and without the drawbacks of other speed perk characters like Walter, Woodie, Wormwood and Wanda.

Never really had the right words to put this into perspective, so thank you for this. The concept of almost x2 damage, despite the fact that you had to munch on something every few hits anyway really isn't all too powerful. It would just speed up boss fights with just less time wasted, unlike for smaller creatures where hitting them with 1 or 2 hits could entirely change a combat encounter's dynamic. So speed in the unconventional sense really is the key here but not just for bosses I suppose. And the benefactor of not having a significant downside, which I still have yet to see be of concern.

[Theukon-dos]

9 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Everyone wants to rush the ruins, which is way better than archives on Wanda, so this entire weird premise makes no sense.

I don't rush the ruins. I know it's helpful to do so, but dedicating most of autumn to exploring the most dangerous point on the map is a bit different than setting up crock pots.

 

In fact, this point still works in my favor, as Wanda's not very good when it comes to ruins rushing due to limited, inventory-space consuming inventory options.

9 hours ago, Shosuko said:

And I think it doesn't matter that a moderately skilled player can pick Wolfgang and do things that Wolfgang is supposed to be good at...  Anyone can pick Maxwell or Woodie can farm lots of logs, isn't that why you pick them?  A good player on Wanda will far surpass anything a moderately skilled player can do even on old Woflgang.

So a good player is better than an average/moderate player. Good to know.

 

Tell me, what about a Moderate Wanda player? or a good Wolfgang player?

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Tell me, what about a Moderate Wanda player? or a good Wolfgang player?

There's been a lot of talk about what Wanda would mean to a less skilled player.  I've heard arguments that a lesser skilled player could take Wanda and get good benefits as she sits now.  Her kit certainly overlaps Wolfgangs for several comparisons.

Wolfgang's speed helps him dodge in combat and get in extra hits sometimes.  His 2x damage helps him finish fights faster so he has less risk since he must go through less repetitions of boss patterns, and also uses half the weapon / armor use.  He gets a ~20% movement speed which stacks with cane letting him get around out of combat very fast.  Wanda's whip range lets her dodge easier on combat and get in extra hits often.  Her 2x damage lets her finish fights faster, and her nm fuel efficiency is much higher than Wolfgang's reducing her resource cost even further.  She can easily forgo a cane for her first backtrek marking base, this effectively doubles her out of combat move speed since her return trip is instant.  She doesn't even *need* 2 really.

Wolfgang has a beefy health bar so you could take some hits as you're learning.  Wanda only doesn't have this.  This is basically the training wheels that lets a lesser skilled Wolfgang get more than a lesser skilled Wanda - the amount of damage they're likely to take.  For a low skilled player who might die to spiders or pigs early because they are very unfamiliar with the game this is an obvious obstacle - I wouldn't recommend Wanda to a player so new.  BUT to a moderately skilled player who can explore the entire surface, and make it through winter without significant risk of dying I think they could already get a lot out of Wanda.  The Archives aren't difficult to use for getting Wanda equipped, much easier than learning to rush ruins.

Also young Wanda packs a punch.  Staying a capped youth she's dealing 81 damage per hit with her whip easily 2 shotting up to 150 health mobs which is a pretty significant threshold.  Even in this form her nm fuel efficiency is 1958.4 damage per nm fuel and her whip has no other penalties for being used young.  Its not as good as Wolfgang's 2720 per nm fuel, but this is Wanda as far away from risk as she can be, sitting at 20 years all day every day.

I think there is a good argument that even at moderately skilled Wanda is going to do more than a moderately skilled Wolfgang, and this is pre-refresh...

What about a really good player as Wolfgang vs a moderately skilled Wanda?  I think here the Wolfgang is going to get more only because the Wolfgang player knows what they need to do, and want to do, where a moderately skilled Wanda like me is going to flounder after doing the things they're comfortable with and hit an area where they're in new territory and learning again.