Wolfgang Roleback Please !

[HumanBean150]

I think they should replace his scaling damage with a flat 1.25 multiplier. 

(i am very funny)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

53 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Wendy isn't gonna get you farther than farming spiders and bees if you don't know how to utilize her potions and tame a beefalo to max out her potential if you don't then you've been gimped against bosses.

im aware that wendy has a """high""" skill cap to shine and the lowest one to just keep the player alive but you point is kinda weak since can be applied to everything. the beefalo isnt a must imo, she still get very good damage and you only need 1 elixir, the healing one, to do bosses so isnt rocket science

as a silly example: if you dont know recipes you wont be able to heal/manage sanity easily

11 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I'd prefer a Wormwood + Warly, then a Wolfgang+Warly

fun>raw power

im with you

raise you veggie friends!

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As far as Alarming Clock- I think the intention of paid dlc characters has and always will be to be better than the free ones.

 

for that wormwood need tons of suggestion topics and an entire farm rework to be actually be one of the best (but the initial intention wasnt being speedy gonzalez 24/7), wurt being hated by the community (and they dont even fix the things that actually needs a fix instead of weird, costly to add and useless swiming perks) or woxtor being a mediocre character (but fun)

wanda is better than others just because a lot of users liked the wendy glass cannon refresh+having the great idea of giving late game powerful teleportation perk

[Cloakingsumo198]

29 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

 mean, wendy isnt that good, she just trivializes survival but the player needs experiencie to do bigger things. A beefalo doesnt change that just trivializes even more the survival 

This is where your logic keeps falling through. Pretty sure the point of progression is to trivialize survival.

Don't understand why I have to explain to you then, that since Abigail won't win in tougher fights without input of the player, then the player will learn to step up themselves or die. Why do you hold so much resentment to things that other characters shine and then do the same to avoid where they fail.

[Capybara007]

Hello wolfgang thread #718

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Pretty sure the point of progression is to trivialize survival

which progression? she literally spawns with abi xD

i dont want to make this a wendy op topic since will be silly, pointless and biased since she is ok. The game needs wendy and wigfrid. I just mentioned both of them because we already have many characters without interesting downsides like winona, wx, wigfrid (it was a little interesting until klei added goodies...), wurt (rwys farms op and able to be used in winter), wendy, wilson, wolfgang, wickerbottom...

atleast wendy is very fun even when there are less heart atack moments as her than as others

7 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Why do you hold so much resentment to things that other characters shine and then do the same to avoid where they fail

i dont understand this, could you explain it with other words?

[Mike23Ua]

Skipping the whole Wendy, Wanda & Wigfrid OP part of this thread: I must ask very specifically what is so terrible about Wolfgang’s Rework?

For me it’s just a couple small Nitpicks: First of Which is the crafting cost and Durability of Dumbells is a complete Joke either increase their durability or reduce the crafting costs. (2 stone, 1 Cut Stone Etc..)

Not being able to move while lifting dumbells is kind of annoying, manageable, but still annoying.. there’s a button prompt to stop lifting, why does that even exist? I would love to be able to lift and move at the same time even if I walk slower then normal: Walking at all is better then standing still.

Mighty doesn’t feel “Mighty Enough” this one’s the big one: he should throw further and harder, be able to effortlessly lift small-mid sized heavy items.. 

I mean the dude CAN lift heavy items… he just over-exaggerated how MUCH he can lift..

Other then that I think the rework is great.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Each character has some inherit benefit to them, their abilities and stats that affect gameplay spider wars,teleports, extra damage, special buildings/abilities with some brain power this leads to higher level plays other characters can't achieve you usually speak really well about these things.

The drawbacks, you repeat that they are meaningless because they have work arounds or can be easily ignored if some caution or ingenuity/game sense is applied (Except for Wanda apparently lol) no duh. That's my whole point of course they have work arounds every character works around their drawbacks to shine. To higher level players some drawbacks really have no effect but to newer players they do and you literally put in no creativity or thought in seeing from some other perspective.

[Sweaper]

47 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

fun>raw power

What do you mean by this?

[Cloakingsumo198]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Skipping the whole Wendy, Wanda & Wigfrid OP part of this thread

It wasn't about who's op. Don't care. It's about how each character is different and will have different flaws that adhere to their character Walter and warly come to mind where their kits is very punishing but their gameplay either is very laid-back or highly chaotic depending on how you approach playing and your skill/knowledge level of the characters abilities.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

22 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Each character has some inherit benefit to them, their abilities and stats that affect gameplay spider wars,teleports, extra damage, special buildings/abilities with some brain power this leads to higher level plays other characters can't achieve you usually speak really well about these things.

The drawbacks, you repeat that they are meaningless because they have work arounds or can be easily ignored if some caution or ingenuity/game sense is applied (Except for Wanda apparently lol) no duh. That's my whole point of course they have work arounds every character works around their drawbacks to shine. To higher level players some drawbacks really have no effect but to newer players they do and you literally put in no creativity or thought in seeing from some other perspective.

oh, i see but i think you didnt get why i said about wendy. I tried to say that the skill cap is hight, is some kind of wanda scenario, but instead of die you might die or leave and is only applied to boss fights and mobs with very high damage to mobs, but still there so chill. My only problem with Wendy, and apparently one of problems people have with wolf is that boss fights are a little portion of the gameplay (seems like only matters when we talk about nerfing wolfgang...) the rest of the time there is no much emotion fighting mobs (hound waves are the only dangerous thing in late, monkeys are a joke, etc but is a personal thing), that most elixirs are useless or very niche because abi already has the effects by default (weaker versions but more than enough like her shield)  and that her damaged buff feels like added for the sake of adding a coop perk...also most of the noise i made when she was refreshed was for the same reason some people is making noise now with wolfgang: being biased because klei changed something i liked but now i dont think she needs a nerf, atleast not something that urgent..

Also i dont know why are you so insistent about me defending that wanda has downsides. I did it because people were saying dumb things like "op healing". If was on my hand i would nerf her A LOT but i got tired of being treat as a "tryhard" so i dont care. Sad because i got bored of playing her but whatever, there is too many characters

17 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

What do you mean by this?

x6 damage coming from wolf+warly = raw power

wormwood + warly = funnier

wasnt a serious comment so forget it :)

[Cloakingsumo198]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

oh, i see but i think you didnt get why i said about wendy. I tried to say that the skill cap is hight, is some kind of wanda scenario, but instead of die you might die or leave and is only applied to boss fights and mobs with very high damage to mobs, but still there so chill. My only problem with Wendy, and apparently one of problems people have with wolf is that boss fights are a little portion of the gameplay (seems like only matters when we talk about nerfing wolfgang...), that most elixirs are useless or very niche because abi already has the effects by default (weaker versions but more than enough like her shield)  and that her damaged buff feels like added for the sake of adding a coop perk...also most of the noise i made when she was refreshed was for the same reason some people is making noise now with wolfgang: being biased because klei changed something i liked but now i dont think she needs a nerf, atleast not something that urgent..

Also i dont know why are you so insistent about me defending that wanda has downsides. I did it because people were saying dumb things like "op healing". If was on my hand i would nerf her A LOT but i got tired of being treat as a "tryhard" so i dont care. Sad because i got bored of playing her but whatever, there is too many characters

Honestly if some characters were weakened to some degree or some provided solely unique traits only they could provide. Character selection would be alot more important, but right now it's not its mostly up to taste.

[LinknAllie]

This thread is gonna get locked in approx. 3 hours

[Sweaper]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wasnt a serious comment so forget it :)

Makes sense. It would be pretty bad for the game if having raw power came at the cost of a player's fun.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Honestly if some characters were weakened to some degree or some provided solely unique traits only they could provide. Character selection would be alot more important, but right now it's not its mostly up to taste.

i prefer if klei makes mobs more interesting and difficult rather than wasting time nerfing things (maybe they could waste few minutes nerfing the alarming clock...) but i said my opinion about nerfing wanda so you can stop repeating that i defend my "main" (my main is wurt and wanda is a dropped character but ok)

7 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

Makes sense. It would be pretty bad for the game if having raw power came at the cost of a player's fun.

totally

is just that i find more fun wormwood than wolfgang and even more if is mixed with warly.

the comment was dumb (i just wanted to have fun saying goofy things to howl) since anyways 2 players with voldgoat jelly are way to strong. With wormood farming and speed might be even stronger than wolf+warly xD

players fun should be a priority and for that klei should do something about wolf because seems like a lot of people that actually tried the refresh arent having fun with it honestly, even if think the rework is fine in general, wolf is now one of the less funny characters because still being easy but his gameplay isnt so engaging

6 hours ago, Random Guy000 said:

Nobody runs around as young Wanda when they have alarming clock, base damage doesnt matter because of how easy it is to achieve higher values with practically no consequences(not talking old Wanda)

but that is the problem. She is suppose to be a glass cannon but she deals a lot of damage at 75% hp. I guess this was made so wanda can be enjoined by more people (and bought, after all is a business) but feels weird

also is kinda dumb all her "shadow weapons deal more damage perk" when it really means "you will only use alarming clock" which is cool and unique but i dont like having a limited gameplay

i only used dark swords because i wanted to destroy the ones dropped by the shadow chess pieces and i used them to farm NF with bone helm

since the range gives a lot of advantage, it should deal less damage than dark swork so you can chose to deal more melee damage or little less but safer. Just that will make her gameplay a lot more deep since you will decide if using dark sword for toad or alarming clock for beequeen, etc

[Lex the Grim]

Wolfgang was changed, but I don't think what he received was enough to call it a refresh, at least not one up to the standards of most previous refreshes. Klei has shot itself in the foot here with their excellent work previously, they've set a high standard we can expect.

He gained nothing except for a small gathering boost, a (comparatively expensive) way to kill birds and rabbits, and the way his mighty works was changed into a mechanic that literally forces you to return to base regularly, or stand still and watch an animation.

Yes Gembells are a thing, they can compensate, but the fact of the matter is it's way duller and resource intensive compared to stuffing your face with a bunch of easily farmed roasted potatoes.

He gained nothing interesting or fun, no new utility, he was just made more boring and had one of his kinda fun perks, his speed increase, removed.

And they missed the boat on an opportunity too, a super simple one that can take advantage of the time and assets they've put into the change: Dumbbells and Gyms are Wolfgang exclusive, no one else can make them. What if other characters could use the equipment for a temporary buff akin to Warly's Jelly and spices? If you're worried about turning him into a swap character just to acquire the gym, just require Wolfgang to be present while it's happening, have him stand there shouting encouragement like Rainier Wolfcastle! Stuff like that!

Add another workout machine like an elliptical you have to get on to get a temporary speed boost, which Wolfgang can use by himself or give a damn spin class! He won't have the speed all the time, so that would be an effective limiting factor. Heck lock it behind Thulecite fragments if you want to, but it would be a neat halfway-happy compromise.

There are so many opportunities.

Although I do hope they get rid of the extra hunger drain from using gym buildings, because that honestly just feels like a punishment, but that's just my opinion. Maybe not for the elliptical machine,

See what I mean though? That's the kind of stuff they didn't add. That's the stuff I want.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

That's a compelling argument for solo, but as for multi you are relying on Warly.

I'd prefer a Wormwood + Warly, then a Wolfgang+Warly. Given they can get more reliable darkswords+veggies and Wolfgang's returns being a lot less in multi.

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

fun>raw power

It is powerful though.

Quote

Add in a 3rd character and Wolfgang becomes obsolete. In this case Wigfrid becomes a more compelling choice. 

There was a post made (can't find it) by a user named... Something like friendlygrass or something, where he showed a table comparing the resources used in a team of Wolfgang+Wilson and both were under the 3x multiplier, Wolfgang's was set to a reliable 2x for best case scenario. Both used a similar amount of resources against a dragonfly proving Wolfgang has worse returns in multiplayer and it gets worse as more players join. He's just a stone/gem sink in multi.

idk I think it can be summed up like this:

Character set	Effective damage mod	Damage per darksword	Total group damage per darksword set
Wolfgang alone	2	13600	13600
Wolfgang + Wilson	1.5	10200	20400
Wolfgang + 2 Wilson	1.33	9044	27132
Warly alone	1.7	11560	11560
Warly + Wilson	1.7	11560	23120
Warly + 2 Wilson	1.7	11560	34680

I keep saying it, but its true - the idea that Wolfgang was OP is kinda dated.  Before the refreshes there weren't many damage sources that competed with Wolfgang.  Now that we have several other characters who peak damage who also have other team utility...  Wolfgang kinda just "fit in" as the solo / nomad / early game / speed run character.  The new version is definitely a step down.  Sure ppl are able to do things with him... but to have such a basic kit at this stage in the game...  idk

[HowlVoid]

39 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

 

It has to do with the other character lowering Wolfgang's average. You'll only get the full benefit with Wolfgang solo or double Wolfgang.

Funny that in a game that focuses on multiplayer, there is a character that becomes worse in it. Then you add synergies like Wickerbottom + Wormwood, Wigfrid + a lot of players, Wortox + a healing impaired character, basically anything fun and unique and I don't find a need to ever pick Wolfgang. 

I think the dev's thinking was to narrow and this can be seen in the statement that goes something like (not exact):

"We didn't want to make him how he is, but better."

Then there was the fear that Wolfgang would eclipse other characters, but for some reason that fear didn't exist when Wendy was refreshed and Wanda was introduced (not because Wanda is op but because she is so uniquely powerful in her own right).

A character can be further developed and broadened without actually increasing its power. 

I also think this character specifically should have been completely remade from the ground up, rather than trying to slightly tweak him so he could fit in. His whole concept was outdated as the "solo boss killer" but in a game that's not about solo he falls a little behind. 

Well, it's not an easy task when the concept itself is outdated/one-dimensional and Klei always has a somewhat tight schedule to keep. It was just kinda weird to not see that Klei imagination and innovation I'm used to seeing. 

Wolfgang's niche in speedrunning wasn't that great before either to be honest. He had the same problems he has now and was as one-dimensional as he is now.

Spoiler

Minus the speed

 

[Astraia]

Wait people are still talking abt Wolfgang? This is the millionth thread of him

Geez, did people ACTUALLY forget mods exist?

[Cloakingsumo198]

19 minutes ago, NightfallsCurse said:

Wait people are still talking abt Wolfgang? This is the millionth thread of him

Geez, did people ACTUALLY forget mods exist?

Why is it so hard to avoid a forum for some people.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 hours ago, NightfallsCurse said:

Geez, did people ACTUALLY forget mods exist?

mods arent the solution plus there is some console peasants that are suffering enough already playing with controler, let them have cool stuff too

[Duck986]

7 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Why is it so hard to avoid a forum for some people.

this is the first time when I actually understood this meme lmao.

[Mysterious box]

13 hours ago, Toros said:

You could consider it part of Warly's DPS, but Wolfgang gains the most from volt goat jelly.  Warly alone can boost someone's damage to 1.7-3x, but Wolfgang gets 3.4-6x damage.

While I somewhat understand this it's still like saying Winona's catapults are Wolfgang's contribution simply because he'll add higher damage alongside them. Wolfgang gets stronger but it's not Wolfgang's accomplishment it's Warly's.

13 hours ago, Toros said:

I'm skeptical that Wolfgang's prep time is actually longer over the course of a server.  Very few people are so efficient that the 5 seconds per day of gym time or 15 seconds of gembell use when you are maintaining mighty actually matters compared to needing twice as many weapons/armor/healing/utility items for bosses.

Because wolf does double damage with normal durability loss on weapons, he cuts the resource to beat any boss in half.  This is is most significant when it comes to things like weather pains/panflutes/lazy explorers that aren't as straightforward to farm as dark swords/football helmets/pierogi.  In the case of dragonfly, he can also farm scales via resetting the fight or do a solo stun.  I suspect people will develop a strategy for a double stun dfly which will make her much easier to farm solo as wolf without much effort involved.

Depends really his damage is high but he's not the only with boosted damage there are a variety of characters with combat advantages and while he will usually save on weapons there's no guarantee he'll use less healing or armor.

[Toroic]

26 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

While I somewhat understand this it's still like saying Winona's catapults are Wolfgang's contribution simply because he'll add higher damage alongside them. Wolfgang gets stronger but it's not Wolfgang's accomplishment it's Warly's.

Depends really his damage is high but he's not the only with boosted damage there are a variety of characters with combat advantages and while he will usually save on weapons there's no guarantee he'll use less healing or armor.

Warly gives a x3 damage boost, Wolfgang is able to add another x3 damage boost, so I’d call them equal contributors to Wolfgang being able to hit 6x damage.

In multiplayer, the way I’d use Warly and Wolf would be to send Wolf alone to kill raid bosses with one volt goat jelly because most bosses already become trivial when you have 3+ people attacking at once, and everyone else can do other bosses.

There is a guarantee for any fight that Wolfgang stays mighty that he’ll use half the armor, healing, and other items (rounded up) compared to a standard damage character assuming equal skill.

If Wolfgang uses the same amount of healing as a Wilson it means had he been playing Wilson he would’ve used twice as much.

The reason for this is because with a stable 2x damage and no speed boost, the kiting is exactly the same as wilson, it just takes half as many hits and thus half as much time at the same skill level.

If someone is using Wolfgang as a crutch to get through sloppy fights that’s certainly a valid reason to use him, as you’d use the same amount of resources as Wilson but not fail.

[Jero-San]

23 hours ago, Double F said:

i know this topic has been beat to the grownd but please, just gives us old Wolfgang back, or at least change the new one ! i hate this rework, i dont mind you nerfing wolfgang if hes too op (even tho this game is pve and nerfing stuff on a pve game is stupid in my opinion but whatever) but this new rework is just a boring piece of trash. Why do i have to stop what im doing to work out ???? why do i get so much punish for not wanting to stop to work out !!??? can you just remove the stupid workout meter and replace it with food again please ? remove the speed boost for all i care but dont force me into a boring mini game/ afk lift just so i can play the game. The thing that pieces me off the most is if i dont work out i take more damage and deal less damage and on top of that i still starve 1.5% faster and get scared 25% faster has well ! its a pain in the ass constantly fighting shadow creatures with a damage reduction/increased just because i dont wanna waste time lifting or playing mini games... Please rework him again of if you dont wanna have the trouble just change him back with a nerf (or no nerf at all that would be perfect)

cry about it