Ocean Content Concepts

[cropo]

1 minute ago, MikoFanboy said:

Why do you guy alway have a mind set of "one type of boat should able to do everything" when I just trying to say that the thing this boat can't do, the other can and reverse because NOTHING IS PERFECT

one SHOULD SUPPORT the other

 

Adding the Shipwrecked boats in DST's ocean would be like giving Mario an SMG for the Super Mario games, it'd completely wreck everything and doesn't fit.

 

There would be ZERO reason to use the cookie boats in comparison because they're just so much worse by design. Why would you need to build stuff on a boat when you can completely navigate any rock formations, kite any mob, and directly land on any island straight away? The reason you would need to build things on a cookie boat is because you're going to be staying in the ocean for long periods of time to find what you're looking for(if you're not just flying around as a ghost like I do). You wouldn't need to do this at all if you could just super-sail to any pinpoint location you needed to go to. You can't sail at night very well because avoiding obstacles you might come across with DST's extremely limited vision would be nearly impossible, that wouldn't be a problem with the SR boats. 

Cookie Cutters would be no problem because you could just juke them outright and smack them, they'd have to recreate an entirely new set of AI and attack animations to adapt them to the SW boats on top of that.   RockJaws would have to be changed to ram you or attack you like any other mob, which would require new animations and AI. Barnacles would be childs play, you could just edge right up to them and shave them and get out immediately before any harm is risked to you.  Every single threat and enemy would have to be reworked both in AI and animations to adapt to a SW boat.  The only content you'd have to use a cookie boat for is sea-fishing, and that's not because there are advantages and perks to consider when using it, but because you would have to.

 

To put it another way, imagine adding the Cookie Boats into Shipwrecked. It absolutely wouldn't work at all right? Every piece of SW was designed around being able to kite with a boat, with the tighter controls. In order to implement cookie boats into Shipwrecked, they'd have to nerf all the threats and make them easier to deal with so that the cookie boats could work and that would take ages to do. Making animations is a massive undertaking.

 

They've already invested into Ocean content the way it has been, digging up its very foundations and changing it, even if it's annoying for a lot of players isn't the answer anymore because it would be an astronomical task.

[MikoFanboy]

Just now, Capybara007 said:

Adding sw boats will only satisfy a very minor number of people

one again, SW boat in my idea isn't there to "satisfly a very minor number of people" or "overshadow the cookie boat"

it's there to do the better job that the cookie boat can't while allowing the cookie boat to improve on what it already good at

 

some guy tell me to be creative yet when I bring up that boat type of boat can exsit, people start to complaint that it won't work because of the old mechanic 

I start to wonder who is the one that not being creative 

1 minute ago, cropo said:

There would be ZERO reason to use the cookie boats in comparison because they're just so much worse by desig

one again, BECAUSE SW BOAT CAN'T DO SOME STUFF THAT COOKIE BOAT CAN

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, cropo said:

they're just so much complex by design

fixed

[MikoFanboy]

why did you guy start at "cookie boat can do anything" to say it's a better choice

then later one say "SW boat can do anything better so it will overshadow the cookie boat"

when I was pointing out that BOTH ARE GOOD BUT AT DIFFERENT THINGS and THEY CAN CEMPENSATE EACH OTHER 

[cropo]

14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

fixed

If you were to objectively compare the boats in handling tasks, fighting enemies, and getting you from point A to point B, the cookie boat is the loser, by design. This makes them worse,  being more complex doesn't really change that. They were designed that way to be more challenging and encourage multiple people operating it(although I'd rather just operate the thing by myself and spare myself the headache of multiple people clobbering around).

I liked the idea at first but in practice I just can't stand the ocean myself so as long as future content doesn't force me to engage with it in-depth I'll be happy.

 

 

12 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

why did you guy start at "cookie boat can do anything" to say it's a better choice

then later one say "SW boat can do anything better so it will overshadow the cookie boat"

when I was pointing out that BOTH ARE GOOD BUT AT DIFFERENT THINGS and THEY CAN CEMPENSATE EACH OTHER 

I don't know what the others have said about the boats, but in my opinion from playing Shipwrecked primarily in SP there is absolutely no contest between the boats, the SW boats are far superior in every aspect in terms of performance, if the SW boats existed there would be absolutely no reason to use the cookie boats.  Anything the cookie boat can do with placing structures on it is completely overshadowed by the supreme power of the SW boats, especially if you add in the Limestone boat which gave you 800HP, and had 2 cargo slots for repair kits and gears for the iron sail(not that you need repair kits with the Home Sea Home updates repair station).

 

Shipwrecked is the easiest version of Don't Starve to play and one of the many reasons for this was because of how amazing the boats were at their job, once that initial learning curve is passed you have to be trying your absolute best to die while playing.

[MikoFanboy]

13 minutes ago, cropo said:

If you were to objectively compare the boats in handling tasks, fighting enemies, and getting you from point A to point B, the cookie boat is the loser, by design.

can you make crookpot food in SW boat? no
can you build a chest and store a bunch of new item with SW boat? no
can you carry other player with SW boat? no

can you move your afk friend to some place with you without the need of wating for them with SW boat? no

can make a fire to cook or watever you need with SW boat? no

can you sleep while moving with SW boat? no

can you use Pinchin' Winch to pick stuff up in the ocean? no

can you carry heavy objects from point A to B with SW boat? no

.....

this is where the cookie boat shine, 

also like I said, SW boat isn't designed for DST world generation and need to take a break from time to time, this is where the cookie boat can do it's best to support the SW boat, just allow the SW to "merge" with cookie boat and it should be perfect

On 11/17/2021 at 12:59 AM, MikoFanboy said:

 

[cropo]

1 minute ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you make crookpot food in SW boat? no

Meaningless, you can bring cooked food with you and get to where you want to go before you'd ever run out.

 

1 minute ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you build a chest and store a bunch of new item with SW boat? no

Meaningless. What content in the ocean honestly requires an extra chest? You can easily plan for this ahead of time. You only really need a chest on the cookie boats to carry the absurd maintenence materials you'd need for longer journeys due to the slower and more perilous nature of the cookie boats, an issue the SW boats never had in a DLC based on an ocean.

3 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you carry other player with SW boat? no

Meaningless, they could make their own SW boat and you would have a much easier time dealing with threats than an average 2man boat. Unless you are directly communicating with voice chat, it is not humanly possible to be so in-synch that your piloting can surpass the SW boat, and even then you would still be more free and in-control of your faculties just sailing by yourselves.

 

4 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you move your afk friend to some place with you without the need of wating for them with SW boat? no

Going AFK in a dangerous survival game without having the courtesy to log out real quick and back in isn't something I personally consider to be good manners. I mean I guess you could argue that the ''huge benefit'' of a cookie boat is being a glorified taxi-service to careless players who want to risk dropping their items in the water and losing them to an accident out at sea is worth making a cookie boat over. I'll just have to disagree with you there.

 

6 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

can make a fire to cook or watever you need with SW boat? no

Meaningless, you just don't put yourself in a situation where you would need to make a fire to cook things in the first place, this is a consideration you would have to make in SW anyway.  What kind of food are you gathering out at sea that would require a fire anyway? Sea-Fishing? That is the worst way to get food, and if you're so desperate for food that you'd be relying on Sea Fishing, you have made a mistake somewhere in your game and chances are a firepit is the least of your worries.  Sea-Fishing is obnoxious, requires extra inventory space that could have been used to carry more food anyway. IT's a novelty feature for collecting useless trash to put on a scale, or completing Pearls obnoxious quests, which yes would require a cookie boat. 

 

10 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you sleep while moving with SW boat? no

I have never used the sleeping feature in this game except for giving a quick heal to Wormwood.  It's there as a mechanic that you can use if you want, sure. But are you honestly going to tell me that sleeping on a boat is a genuine perk that one would seriously consider when choosing which boat they are going to sail in? Come on...

 

11 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you use Pinchin' Winch to pick stuff up in the ocean? no

Right, you would have to use it solely for this reason. Not because the boat has some advantages or considerations to take into mind, but because there is literally no other choice than to settle for the lesser option to get one tiny building piece for island content.  This isn't an argument that makes the Cookie boat worthwhile, it'd just be one singlular purpose they would have.

 

12 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you carry heavy objects from point A to B with SW boat? no

See above point.

 

 

 

So in your situation here we have 2 reasons one would use the Cookie boat over a SW boat.

 

1. They don't care about how weak the cookie boat is in comparison to the SW boat, and they are just doing it to feel like they are doing something more skilled or don't care about picking the best option for the job. This is fine, but it doesn't really change my assertion that there's no -actual- benefit over just using a SW boat.

 

2. They do it for content that absolutely 100% requires the worse boat, at current we can think of what....2 things? Grabbing a piece of furniture and sea-fishing for Pearls quests? 

 

So in conclusion we would have.

 

A single-boat that steamrolls all content in the ocean, gets you where you need to be post-haste, significantly reduces stress and difficulty of the game.

 

A big, fat, bloated boat that is only used for picking up a piece of furniture and a useless and tedious fishing activity. And elitists and casual players who intentionally use it, knowing it's far worse, to play the game their own way.

 

Which one would you pick? 

[Capybara007]

Those are 2 very manipulative options

 

[cropo]

4 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Those are 2 very manipulative options

 

 

Reading my argument. Would you honestly and in good faith tell me that a player, who is concerned with playing the game in some reasonable manner of efficiency, knew the ''pros'' and cons of both boats and was considering which one they should use, they would be likely to use the cookie boat in the face of the SW boats existence? 

 

You would have to actively reject any kind of desire to play efficiently to honestly choose the cookie boat over the SW boat. For some reason, maybe for fun, maybe for a sense of achievement, you would be making the active decision to use a worse boat by choosing the cookie boat if the option existed.  Adding in SW boats would almost entirely invalidate the cookie boats. That's definitely fine if that's your decision, play the way you want. My argument is that the SW boats are objectively superior in terms of performance to the cookie boats, and if they were added in to DST the average player would never use the cookie boat unless they were forced to so the argument that the two can co-exist in DST isn't a good one.

[Capybara007]

I agree, but the options are still manipulative

[Mike23Ua]

I believe this thread got way off track, but on the topic of DST Boats VS SW Boats-

DESIGN WISE (aka the way the boats look) Shipwrecked wins- no you can’t debate that.

But GAMEPLAY WISE (the way the whole thing moves and operates, steers etc..) DST boats beat SW boats by a landslide.

The way DST boats work are FUN and unique… but they aren’t without their flaws- they’re also equally huge, can’t fit into small resource filled streams and a massive freaking time sink to get one fully functional and ready to set sail- I actually had problems with the 20 Kelp Wurt needs for her dumb Merm King almost spoiling before I could gather enough “Boat Parts” to get out on deep ocean and gather some stupid Kelp.

Not to mention: you also have to put in the time sink building the seafaring structure tab, the boat parts and then getting out to sea

In an Archipelago style world Gen (something Devs have hinted multiple times they may someday actually do..) Build the DST Boat may not even be possible at all- and in those cases having smaller boats that preferably are removed OUT of needing to learn at a machine first… would allow the player to get out to sea and to other biomes to gather the resources for the DST Boat.

They removed Rabbit Earmuffs out of needing to learn at science machine first, so what harm would having the basic starting SW raft with DST rowing mechanics and an Oar being unlocked from the start do to the game?

”people will use smaller boat for things designed for larger boat” in short- No…

When you Mine rocks at Sea if those rocks don’t land on your boat cookie they sink, a SW raft would be too small to ram the giant trees in the Water Logged Biome

”but how will the little raft work with content designed for the bigger boat?”

it won’t- it’s small.. it’s weak, it loses health overtime needing repairs with twigs or grass, it’s also fragile to enemy attack- Basically your WES but as a boat- meaning RockJaw Shark attack would be Instant-Death on your little raft unless you row away and row away FAST..

”Why add this kind of smaller boat”

Look- I want Walani in the game and Wurt mains want Wurt to be able to swim- If a smaller boat isn’t added- But Walani and a Wurt update ARE: They’ll be the only things able to gather resources in the tiny streams the larger cookie platform won’t fit into.

“What about Cookie Cutters Bruh?” Yeah.. those things to me just seem like AT Sea versions of Termites, and what do Termites do?? They eat wood, it takes them awhile to eat your large heavily armored cookie boat, but imagine being out there in termite infested waters on a tiny SW raft made of grass and logs.. it won’t end pretty for you.

“I’ll take this new smaller boat and go fight -insert sea boss here-“ No.. no you actually won’t, your boat has like 50 hp and loses it over time with “At sea Repairs” one measly hit from a sea boss and your swimming with the fishes.

The only upside to would be Wavey won’t mess with you- but you can achieve the same result by just not placing any structures onto a boat cookie platform so I see no difference here.

”Okay what about cool content?”

Ah… now there’s a question better left for Klei- if we had small streams tinier boats can go down but the bigger boat can not.. I personally would do things like enemy fortresses out at sea with entrance ways too small to get the larger boat into.. but the smaller boat can slip right on in.

(haven’t any of you watched any pirate movie ever??? Or played any game with boats in them?)

They don’t have a “One Size fits all occasions” boat… you usually have your massive freighters for heavy lifting, and your smaller scouting rafts.

There’s room to make both types of boats work..

But I do not EVER want back the Shipwrecked way of steering them UNLESS.. those smaller boats can be upgraded with a motor and actually make sense that you no longer need to “row” to steer (yeah you all forgot that actually exists in SW didn’t you?)

DSTs new boating mechanics are an amazing reimagining of how boats work- and Klei shouldn’t revert it back to SW versions.

The only exceptions would be Wurt & Walani. But even those- would instantly die to RockJaw attack.

I think an “At Sea” reskinned version of Angry Beehives would be cool too- like “dens” that you get close enough to and hostile water mobs spawn out of.

the sea is empty BECAUSE it has no dens for mobs to spawn out of.. Shipwrecked had Ballphin dens..

Come on Klei it’s been TWO YEARS since you added an ocean to DST and it still feels like I’m playing something very much still in beta…

Coral Reefs that also spawn the unimplemented “Puffer Fish” which act as Homing land mines (aka they float close to you.. puff up and explode out sharp needles you will need to dodge) 

Having actual At Sea passive/aggressive creature spawning dens would COLOSSALLY help the games ocean feel a lot less empty.

Because for now- it’s just sail through this very empty highly boring uninteresting flat lifeless ocean until you get to a point of interest with unique content.

Compared to DS Shipwrecked- We’ve still got quite a long way to go before I will personally find DST’s ocean content enjoyable.

[MikoFanboy]

2 hours ago, cropo said:

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you make crookpot food in SW boat? no

Meaningless, you can bring cooked food with you and get to where you want to go before you'd ever run out.

 

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you build a chest and store a bunch of new item with SW boat? no

Meaningless. What content in the ocean honestly requires an extra chest? You can easily plan for this ahead of time. You only really need a chest on the cookie boats to carry the absurd maintenence materials you'd need for longer journeys due to the slower and more perilous nature of the cookie boats, an issue the SW boats never had in a DLC based on an ocean.

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you carry other player with SW boat? no

Meaningless, they could make their own SW boat and you would have a much easier time dealing with threats than an average 2man boat. Unless you are directly communicating with voice chat, it is not humanly possible to be so in-synch that your piloting can surpass the SW boat, and even then you would still be more free and in-control of your faculties just sailing by yourselves.

 

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you move your afk friend to some place with you without the need of wating for them with SW boat? no

Going AFK in a dangerous survival game without having the courtesy to log out real quick and back in isn't something I personally consider to be good manners. I mean I guess you could argue that the ''huge benefit'' of a cookie boat is being a glorified taxi-service to careless players who want to risk dropping their items in the water and losing them to an accident out at sea is worth making a cookie boat over. I'll just have to disagree with you there.

 

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can make a fire to cook or watever you need with SW boat? no

Meaningless, you just don't put yourself in a situation where you would need to make a fire to cook things in the first place, this is a consideration you would have to make in SW anyway.  What kind of food are you gathering out at sea that would require a fire anyway? Sea-Fishing? That is the worst way to get food, and if you're so desperate for food that you'd be relying on Sea Fishing, you have made a mistake somewhere in your game and chances are a firepit is the least of your worries.  Sea-Fishing is obnoxious, requires extra inventory space that could have been used to carry more food anyway. IT's a novelty feature for collecting useless trash to put on a scale, or completing Pearls obnoxious quests, which yes would require a cookie boat. 

 

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you sleep while moving with SW boat? no

I have never used the sleeping feature in this game except for giving a quick heal to Wormwood.  It's there as a mechanic that you can use if you want, sure. But are you honestly going to tell me that sleeping on a boat is a genuine perk that one would seriously consider when choosing which boat they are going to sail in? Come on...

 

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you use Pinchin' Winch to pick stuff up in the ocean? no

Right, you would have to use it solely for this reason. Not because the boat has some advantages or considerations to take into mind, but because there is literally no other choice than to settle for the lesser option to get one tiny building piece for island content.  This isn't an argument that makes the Cookie boat worthwhile, it'd just be one singlular purpose they would have.

 

2 hours ago, MikoFanboy said:

can you carry heavy objects from point A to B with SW boat? no

See above point.

 

i'm sorry but your answer is too subjective to your play style with is nothing wrong with it but majority won't be the same

 

2 hours ago, cropo said:

1. They don't care about how weak the cookie boat is in comparison to the SW boat, and they are just doing it to feel like they are doing something more skilled or don't care about picking the best option for the job. This is fine, but it doesn't really change my assertion that there's no -actual- benefit over just using a SW boat.

 

insert every positive comment about people enjoy cookie boat more than SW boat that was used against me yesterday (it on this thread so you can go back a few page to read it)

you are playing a game, not doing a job so as long as you can enjoy, that is the benefit

speaking in your language "there's no -actual- benefit over just using a out meta character." yet wilson, wes,... main is still out there

 

2 hours ago, cropo said:

They do it for content that absolutely 100% requires the worse boat, at current we can think of what....2 things? Grabbing a piece of furniture and sea-fishing for Pearls quests? 

 

2 things is already a good enough reason to exist, like Shovel vs Pitchfork, did you know Shovel used to be able to dig up turf 

now day Pitchfork is used for that job and that job only, don't see any complaint about Pitchfork though

 

2 hours ago, cropo said:

A single-boat that steamrolls all content in the ocean, gets you where you need to be post-haste, significantly reduces stress and difficulty of the game.

 

A big, fat, bloated boat that is only used for picking up a piece of furniture and a useless and tedious fishing activity. And elitists and casual players who intentionally use it, knowing it's far worse, to play the game their own way.

have you read my comment, SW boat need to be repair because of it's slowy decrease heath, meaning either you have to bring a ton of repair kid which will fill up your inventory

or able to go back on land in time which will be a problem if the point B you trying to find and go are no where near land and too far away

as a supporter, Cookie boat allow you to rest, repair the boat, store the unnecessary stuff and carry your friend too

also didn't I continued saying that SW boat is there just to do the thing cookie boat can't? 

since ocean content gonna expand, more and more exclusive ocean items that may or may not be important will be added, having a place to store those in the middle of the ocean will be very useful 

 

 "fishing activity." has nothing to do with the boat so I don't get why you mention it

 

also I only talk about adding SW for the combat, not adding all type of Sail and Iron Wind, DST will probably has it own Sail but only one (maybe 2 if you can use malbatross's drop) meaning in a large ocean space, DST is faster because it can has multiple mast

so ye

like I said, SW boat in my idea is made for combat and small space exploration, thing that cookie boat can't do very well

while in large ocean space, Cookie about will destroy SW boat 

 

[Mike23Ua]

I think in the shortest TL:DR post I have ever made- what Everyone is trying to tell you is that the ocean bosses & most content is designed around needing the Boat Cookie.

[MikoFanboy]

49 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I believe this thread got way off track, but on the topic

ah, well I think I have talked about it 

my idea is to add some mini ocean biome that the cookie boat is too big to go in but SW boat can

because when I sailing, sometime, I can spend 30 minutes sailing but everthing I see is a large ocean with maybe some rock? so to have somekind of biome between that would be nice

we already has 2 type of biome that is the waterlog and the Brine Shoals but those two are still quite "empty" because everthing being placed too far away and there are only 1 ore 2 thing in that biome 

this is because the cookie boat need big space to move so those biome can't have much otherwise it's will prevent you from passing

in my idea, a mini biome is not too big so you can easily pass by or you can send a SW boat to go inside it to explore

 

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

what Everyone is trying to tell you is that the ocean bosses & most content is designed around needing the Boat Cookie.

I know :v that is the first thing I point out before I start this huge argument
it's because everything is based around the cookie boat that make the ocean feel boring and empty :v

cookie boat doesn't handle combat very well and because of it nature that being a platform to be built stuff on, you shouldn't use it for combat anyway

(doesn't mean you can't, it just not a good choice)

so combat shoudn't mainly be based around it

for exploration, in my idea of a mini biome, cookie boat job is to let you find the biome (accidentally or intentionally), that's it, but to go inside the biome, you need SW boat 

and with obstacle,(for example: iceberg), rather than not having it at all, SW boat can be there to help cookie boat go through it safely, solve the problem of too much obstacle in your way

 

[Mike23Ua]

So your suggesting something like caverns or a large oak tree with an opening in its roots that is too small for the enormous boat cookie to fit into.. but large enough for a smaller boat to fit inside?

In that case: I 100% agree we need new boat types and sizes and COOL IDEAS THAT UTILZE THOSE SIZES DIFFERENTLY..

But what I will absolutely Never Agree on: is bringing back the boring way boats operated in Shipwrecked over how awesome and actual “Boat-Like” they work now in DST.

Something like these… ^^ where a smaller boat is needed to enter into.