Optional tutorial to aid new players

[goblinball]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

The difference would be: that instead of the game telling you what these things are or do- you discover it for yourself.

The skeletons around the map are a very poor supplement for actually telling the player how certain objects works. A lot of them are too rare to be actually consistent teachers for new players; I’ve only seen the walking cane one a handful of times, and none of those times were in my first few worlds.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, goblinball said:

The skeletons around the map are a very poor supplement for actually telling the player how certain objects works. A lot of them are too rare to be actually consistent teachers for new players; I’ve only seen the walking cane one a handful of times, and none of those times were in my first few worlds.

but that doesnt mean that these kind of things are a way better way to teach new players rather than "winter is cold and you will need armor, healing and sanity because SPOILER a ciclopean deer will appear at day 31". Klei can add more kind of stuff related to give hints like how they already did with the hot spring set piece that teach you that bath bombs makes hot springs produce glass. They also could add a section in the compendium with all the trailers which gives a lot of hinds of how to interact with the content (thanks to archives trailer i was able to know how to get the recipes via the memory puzzle)

even to make the game casual there is better ways than your handholding tutorial idea

i guess that layton puzzles should give you the answer if you get stuck or dark souls should give you a onehitKO spell if you cant beat a boss before you drop the game

[Mike23Ua]

47 minutes ago, goblinball said:

The skeletons around the map are a very poor supplement for actually telling the player how certain objects works. A lot of them are too rare to be actually consistent teachers for new players; I’ve only seen the walking cane one a handful of times, and none of those times were in my first few worlds.

Well I mean if your unwilling to learn from what the game offers you, then I guess it just was never meant to be your type of game to begin with? I hate to sound harsh about it but at exactly what point does the game stop holding your hand?

If a Tutorial covers just the basics- then it doesn’t cover winter gear or fighting Deerclops, if the Tutorial teaches you everything- then you spoil the fun of learning for yourself.

how many “Noobs” do you think knows there’s a crafting tab for Boats? Let alone all the various upgrades you can create for that boat? Would your “tutorial” cover that as well? Would it teach them how to fix a busted boat? I mean- your not really giving any context here beyond

“please add tutorial”

BUT your Tutorial is already there- if you want to learn the games various craftables at a (mostly) peaceful pace- turn OFF every season except Autumn, Turn OFF hound Waves, turn OFF Insanity effects and just learn to craft things without the added stress & challenge of dying..

Personally I feel like the only part of the game that could really really REALLY use a Tutorial is LIMITED TIME CONTENT- why? Because you only have a limited time to experience and enjoy that: so knowing how to do all the things related to those events would be nice.. but even that- is unneeded.

would teach players things like- How to craft Christmas Tree, put decorations on it, sleep under it for Christmas gifts etc- this type of information doesnt really become known without looking it up online..

I believe that any permanent content you can learn at your own pace doesn’t really need a tutorial, but the limited time stuff I always look up details to get the most out of the limited time experience.

Would a Tutorial also cover each of the 18+ playable characters, their abilities, their pros, their cons, their craftables, how to do specific things as them etc…?

I see people who claim they MAIN Wurt crying about fish not stacking making her craftable structures a pain to build, yet… I don’t see any of those Wurt mains discussing how you can literally give several pet fish to a Merm (giving it a fish also hires it to follow you) fish in a Merms inventory spoil much slower then average due to their natural slimy wetness keeping it alive longer- so YES you actually CAN have a hired Merm carry all your fish for you then just kill/have him killed to not only get the fish you gave him to hold back, but also the additional one he drops himself when he dies-

Would a “Tutorial” cover this?? Or would people just keep screaming about how broken Wurt is without utilizing her followers?

Would a tutorial teach players that Wanda’s ageless clock is only useable by a Wanda player and if she dies and drops that and you pick it up and your NOT a Wanda- your being a direct troll to her?

Would it teach you that the (normally perfectly acceptable) process of plucking flowers or chopping wood will absolutely TANK Someone who is playing as Wormwoods Sanity if you do that near them?

[goblinball]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The game you are playing is classified as a- Rogue-Lite type game, it is NOT Minecraft,

No???? Idk about you, but most roguelikes runs do not last for hundreds of hours and can even become endless. DST is not a roguelike game. There is no end goal or way to “win” a run like most roguelikes, permadeath isn’t even a thing if you play on endless, and as far as I’m aware, if DST was a roguelike it’d be the only one that allowed you to spend hundreds of hours building a mega base. DST is closer to Minecraft than any roguelikes, really. Besides, most roguelikes don’t throw massive curveballs at you like DST’s seasons hours in a run and tell you to just “figure it out, you dummy!!!!” So if DST was a roguelike I don’t think it’d be a very good one.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, goblinball said:

No???? Idk about you, but most roguelikes runs do not last for hundreds of hours and can even become endless

rogelite

random world gen and getting knowledge to progress everytime you die (instead of new weapons/skills everytime you die like in a rogelike) gives that roge touch that a lot of us love and hope klei will invest on that aspect in the future

[Mike23Ua]

But your not answering any of my questions- what does a tutorial actually cover?? Does it teach you that carrying a Pipspook around with you as Wendy just because it’s really cute will also drain Sanity of any non-Wendy near you?

Does it teach you while playing as Wortox being Anywhere NEAR a Wendy player who has Abigail riled up killing a bunch of small mobs like spiders or bees will quickly “Overload” Wortox in soul capacity and cause negative effects to him?

Does it teach a Winona Player that she can give Duct Tape to other players to do various things- such as Healing Dead Bernie Dolls for Willow, Repairing Thermal Stone Durability, or Fixing leaks in a Boat?

You kinda have to play the game for yourself to figure all these things out.. otherwise you have a 52 hour tutorial.

Part of the fun & charm of the game is learning things through actual observation.

Do you think a Tutorial would tell a Woodie player that he’s going to suffer a nasty mutation every full moon?

or tell a Walter that even though he can craft (and more confusingly give..) slingshots to other players- THEY can’t use them unless they are also a Walter?

Its a Trial & Error learning process.

[a bin of cake]

I'm not able to read the entire thread right now (I'll read it after I return home), but I would like to give my opinion on the matter:

No. I don't think we should have a tutorial for new players, because I feel like it would limit them. About a year ago, I watched a video on why certain game developers, including Klei, opted to remove achievements from their games (link here). One of the big reasons why the video states the DS devs didn't include goals, which acted like a mini-tutorial (e.g. "build a fire," "build a science machine"), is because new players would spend more time focusing on just those goals than on exploring the world and discovering things on their own. 

I know an actual tutorial tutorial is different, but another question arises is that... to what extent would the tutorial explain things? Just the controls? Or certain mechanics? 

Oop, sorry, I gotta go now, I'll finish sharing my thoughts later.

[Maxposting]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I am 100% unbiased in my opinions-

You literally confirmed your bias.

[Filip_G]

Why do you care about the newbies anyway? You are playing the game already so I assume you are able to survive a couple of hours. If you have some new friends, teach them and screw the rest. They can learn the same way we did. That simple.

And btw, finding how the game works on ones own made the game unique, challenging and amusing. A true survival game at last.

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, fierysage1 said:

I watched a video on why certain game developers, including Klei, opted to remove achievements from their games (link here). One of the big reasons why the video states the DS devs didn't include goals, which acted like a mini-tutorial (e.g. "build a fire," "build a science machine")

That particular set of information is highly outdated though now isn’t it? It was through these achievements that I learned a lot about the game in my quest to “complete” those achievements.

The full list of them can be found here:

https://www.trueachievements.com/game/Dont-Starve-Together/achievements
 

And it teaches players things like they can hire Pigmen (the achievement requires you hire 6 at once) & Cave Lobsters to follow you, it also covers building science, alchemy, prestihatitator, shadow manipulator, exploring a cave, Taming a Beefalo, Killing Deerclops, Dragonfly, Ancient Guardian, Spider Queen, Moose/Goose, Bearger, Growing Flowers, Making & Harvesting Bee Boxes, Creating & Using Sewing Kits, Soothing an angry Tree Giant, Trading with Pig King, Making & Using Telltale Hearts on Dead Players, Opening Tenta-Pillars, locating a VERY Rare drop shelmet and shell armor and wearing both at the same time, and surviving 70 days in a row without dying.

It doesn’t tell you HOW to do these things but it most certainly guides you along the way..

Ahem: Unbiased Opinion.

The Steam Version not having them means those poor unlucky souls do not have the chance to learn all this information in their quest to complete their achievements for the game.

[Maxposting]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Self proclaimed "Unbiased Opinion"

Did you read the requirements sony has?

Devs are supposed to put in a ridiculous amount of achievements.

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Did you read the requirements sony has?

Devs are supposed to put in a ridiculous amount of achievements.

Does it really matter WHY they’re in the game? You missed my point: they teach the player things-

Pretend your brand new to DS/DST and your running around in extreme PANIC from Pigmen, Rock Lobsters and even Beefalo because they’re big.. they’re scary & they look like just another mob out to kill you.

The achievements say “hey don’t be afraid of these guys they can be tamed and become your friends!”

I mean sure.. I guess if you watch streams or look things up on Wiki this is pretty useless information: but for someone who only see’s the achievement description- it says “Wait a minute.. you mean I can TAME Those?!”

In short: It’s a Tutorial without the flashing on screen arrows pop up advice and way points telling you what to do & how to do it.

[Maxposting]

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You missed my point

For a writer, you do sure have a hard time explaining and understanding concepts over a text based site.

You are giving a basic forced achievement list way too much credit, just because you were stuck and should have propably left the game, but didn't and checked the achievement list, that doesnt even exist on most of the platforms, because it's forced on the platforms it exists on, doesn't mean others did the same. Checking an unnecessary list that goes againist the original game design *does not* compliment the game.

It's just you, Mike.

[Mike23Ua]

It’s not just the ones already in the game- more achievements would cover more stuff: like for example an achievement named 

Crabby Granny- “find pearls hermit island & attempt to talk to her.”

This tells YOU (the uninformed player not reading Wiki or watching other players streams) that somewhere out there in the world.. there’s an Island with a NPC on it that YOU need to go find.

Achievements aren’t evil, Klei may have thought that in 2013 but it’s 2021 now and times (and opinions) change.

They actually serve a purpose of guiding the player without giving “Too Much Guidance”

I see people wanting detailed tutorials on how to deal with cold, or fight Deerclops- at that point it would no longer be a tutorial but a step by step walk through of half the game.

[Maxposting]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This tells YOU (the uninformed player not reading Wiki or watching other players streams) that somewhere out there in the world.. there’s an Island with a NPC on it that YOU need to go find.

The average person would check the dst animatics and/or the literal map bottles.

[Warpspeed10]

Yes, Charlie should pop up briefly to teach you the basics of crafting a spear, grass suit, and the basics of kiting based combat.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

46 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Does it really matter WHY they’re in the game?

yes, arent intended by klei

46 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You missed my point: they teach the player things-

and you missed the pojnt that they tried and was toxic for the game experience

1 minute ago, Warpspeed10 said:

Yes, Charlie should pop up briefly to teach you the basics of crafting a spear, grass suit, and the basics of kiting based combat.

and building a firepit, teach you cook pierogies and meat stew, tell you how to survive winter, how to defeat beequeen, teach you kiting moose goose so you survive summer, give an alert when you pick a red mushroom or monster meat, blablabla

if someone isnt able to link the combat tab to fighting then that person might have bigger problems in his life

[TheMelonNinja]

I'm perfectly fine with the basics being a trial-and-error learn-from-experience thing, and some of the meatier stuff as well. The crafting system, resource gathering, the intricacies of combat, crockpot combinations. Those are all things players will learn on their own. Having said that I honestly genuinely believe that there are so many things in this franchise that I just flatout would not have even thought of to do or figured out without having to search it up on the wiki, and that is bad game design in my opinion. Don't Starve is supposed to be difficult, not confusing and contrived. 

Or I suppose everyone just figured out how to summon Misery Toadstool on their own without any outside knowledge whatsoever. 

[Capybara007]

4 hours ago, TheMelonNinja said:

I'm perfectly fine with the basics being a trial-and-error learn-from-experience thing, and some of the meatier stuff as well. The crafting system, resource gathering, the intricacies of combat, crockpot combinations. Those are all things players will learn on their own. Having said that I honestly genuinely believe that there are so many things in this franchise that I just flatout would not have even thought of to do or figured out without having to search it up on the wiki, and that is bad game design in my opinion. Don't Starve is supposed to be difficult, not confusing and contrived. 

Or I suppose everyone just figured out how to summon Misery Toadstool on their own without any outside knowledge whatsoever. 

I wonder what would happen if i use a pickaxe on this one statue at specifically new moon

[Mike23Ua]

I still want someone (including the developers at Klei themselves) to go into great detail of just exactly WHAT would a “Tutorial” cover? How much information would a player learn from that before the game tasks them with figuring things out on their own.

By the way no… Klei does NOT expect you to look everything up online/spoil yourself and the games contents on Wiki pages otherwise when things like this happen:

Spoiler

Chopping Lunar Mushtrees in the Lunar Grotto spawns exploding dangerous spores per chop..

What would even be the point? Your not surprised when it happens because you KNOW it’s going to happen… that’s exactly why I don’t look much up online.

With that said- absolutely none of you have answered my question: What “Exactly” does a Tutorial Cover? How far into the game does it directly hold your hand with baby steps until it then tasks you with figuring things out on your own?

A tutorial that covers surviving each of the games weather seasons, potential dangers and how to fight Deerclops would not be a Tutorial- but a step by step walk through of the game.

So before we go any further with this thread will someone, anyone.. PLEASE answer my question of what all this Tutorial teaches you?

[BezKa]

10 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

I wonder what would happen if i use a pickaxe on this one statue at specifically new moon

I mean those statues shake and you should use a hammer...

[GetNerfedOn]

https://support.klei.com/hc/en-us/articles/360029557532-Why-there-are-no-achievements-for-Don-t-Starve-on-PC-Mac-Linux

Here we are. Sorry it took so long.

[Pig Princess]

5 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

https://support.klei.com/hc/en-us/articles/360029557532-Why-there-are-no-achievements-for-Don-t-Starve-on-PC-Mac-Linux

Here we are. Sorry it took so long.

As a person who enjoyed solving math problems (being it homework or not), as well as learning natural sciences for the fun of the process, I somehow feel offended and couldn't pass by. Math can be charming! Specifically, it was and still is fun for me to read about what is already known, solve problems (doing mental exercise for the fun of finding a solution, especially if it's simple in implementation and approach can be used somewhere else), thinking about what I can use in practice. The issue with math can originate from the same flaw in reward system described in this article, and ironically even in this article it's worded in a way like it's no doubt math is boring. Ouch. But it proves the point.

As for the topic, I think quests, step-by-step guide or even achievement list for actual content are not needed. However, it would be so helpful for me in the past - when I was a complete newbie - to know that I can split stack and rebind controls, use button to quickly move items between containers, receive some kind of explanation what "force" versions of controls do on examples (preferably in the form of text describtion, not tutorial during gameplay, that would be enough).

What could improve learning experience of new players and help them get past learning wall is improvement in recording information, and at the same time making some information more available. For example, some tabs like magic or food are not showed until player builds science machine, and I see no harm in showing all locked prototypable recipes from the start. Maybe recipes locked behind science machine, alchemy engine and magic stations could have different visual effect to not overwhelm player with information from the start, but I think it would be useful for player to see any time what one need to gather in order to "try" some object; otherwise one not only is clueless of what possibly can be crafted, but also doesn't have materials to craft and try a thing in rare occasion access to information is present. Specifically, I learned about Don't Starve franchise existence when I saw Shipwrecked gameplay, and one of the things that hindered my progress was the fact that I rarely had simultaneously materials for alchemy engine and silk/pig skin/empty bottles/fireflies/bioluminescence/nightmarefuel/gems/etc. I just didn't see possibilities when I had opportunity to collect them (away from science machine), and didn't feel like taking paper in real life and writing what I need to get for this thing locked behind next level of science/magic. And no, I didn't like this period, only after I learned some information I started to enjoy the game, and it happened with the help of wiki. Yes, I "spoiled" my experience in the eyes of some players, but it allowed me to gain critical amount of information to start experimenting myself, allowed to start having fun. I don't know what learning experience of people started in vanilla, RoG or DST world looks like, I admit.

As for the recording improvement, I like cookbook path and think it's a good solution. I only wish it contained more details, like plant registry, and showed crock pot ingredient value for food via "learning", just like one can learn fertilizer type and see some information in plant registry. That way it wouldn't be random ingredients in crock pot; player could create a system of learning, which has more potential, in my opinion, and definitely would be more fun to me than trying random recipes or glueing myself to crock pot wiki page. Same goes for mobs: I would like to see bestiary in a way plant registry is done (with their health value after killing them with any method, attack range and period, freezing/burning/sleeping/electricity resistance after trying corresponding attacks, and their loot).

Regarding confusing mechanics, I think hints in natural form or character quotes would be a good solution, and there are examples in the game already: skeleton near bath bomb, winter trap set piece with some winter items and quote for broken clockworks (it would be helpful to have similar one for Misery Toadstool, Shadow Pieces, Fuelweawer). In my personal experience Adventure Mode with it's archipelago map (for early tentacle spike) and two worlds (for merm shrine) was very helpful; also settings different from default helped me to see bigger picture in terms of survival strategies. So I entered as dying from starvation and shadows survivior and exited as more-or-less competent player who could survive at least until summer.

[Mike23Ua]

The entirety of Return of them is a mission based structure of quests, also the NPCs they claimed they would also never ever EVER add to the game are now Pearl, Curio Collector (during Year of Beefalo Event) and Corvus Goodfeather & his Crow Kids (during Mid-Summers Carnival event)

My point? You can’t take Klei’s word for something they once said back in 2013 when 2019-2021 development goes against everything they have said they wouldn’t do.

But: literally no one has yet to answer my question either: What all would a Tutorial teach a player? How much information does Klei need to provide from a tutorial before it drops you into a uncompromising wilderness to survive within?

Personally I would prefer we skip the tutorial and just get something like Terraria’s Beastsry or Spelunky Journals- AKA a Book that only fills in Information as YOU Yourself discover and experiment with it.

Notice how pages where I haven’t discovered biomes, traps or enemy mobs are left blank- indicating there’s information to be found there.. but only once I myself find it.

a little known indie game called “Enter the Gungeon” also has this same kind of “Fill in Content as you discover it” Ammoalmanic. (I probably butchered that word.. I don’t care, I only played that game long enough to get my Gamepass quest this month but) I noticed it has its own Journal log similar to Terraria & Spelunky.

[Maxposting]

Half of your post wasn't even about the topic of tutorial.