Benchmark Testing of Spaced out

[Bossheus]

Here I got a few interesting results.

I did the test three times on 2 different machines (twice on the first one at 1440p and 1080p and one on the second at 1080p)

First machine: (Acer Predator Helios 300)

Time: 150,85s at 1440p

          146,46s at 1080p

CPU: Core i7-10750H

GPU: RTX2070 Max-Q

RAM: 32GB @2933MHz

CAS: 21-21-21-47 (I just realized how bad the timings are, gotta swap them in the future

HDD: Western Digital PC SN730 1TB M.2

 

and here for the interesting part, my new awesome desktop gaming rig (in Progress)

Time: 124,30s

CPU: Ryzen 5 5600X

GPU: Gainward GTX 970            I know ;-() 

RAM: 32GB@ 3200MHz

CAS: 16-16-16-38

HDD: Samsung 980 Pro 1TB M.2 (Boot) and Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB (game folder)

[FGPraxis]

6 hours ago, Kerdeld said:

 

@FGPraxis If you learn how to overclock the ram, it will likely hit really high bandwidths and offer a lot more performance for you
 

Yes i know, i strongly suspect my GSkill DDR4-3200CL14 uses the exact same (samsung) chips as in DDR4-3600CL16

I can probably set frequency and timing to 3600 and 16-16-16-36 and give a very small boost to CPU-RAM core, but i was focused on stability for the first six months and then i decided to set voltage to 1.325V + manual settings (default is 1.35V with XMP) to reduce heat and test stability (it's superstable very good memory chips), yes it's a choice a little weird i know lol, i'll very probably change it

 

[Krunkkracker]

7 hours ago, Kerdeld said:

 

@Krunkkracker can I have a Zentimings picture and DIMM voltage that must be crazy high or the kit was really expensive

 

 

 

@Kerdeld I own an Intel system, Zentimings is an AMD based program and does not work. Ram voltage is currently set to 1.58v as it is Samsung B-die, which comes in XMP kits as high as 1.6v. VCCIO at 1.35v, VCCSA at 1.4v but the sensors are SuperIO so they're often showering inflated values compared to what they are in reality. Same with the DRAM voltage sensor. I stability tested using 3 cycles of TM5 with the anta777 extreme preset, 1 hour of OCCT memory, 1 hour of OCCT CPU Large AVX2 and several hours of Karhu.

 

It is a Trident Z Neo 4000mhz cl16-16-16 1.4v 2x16gb kit of ram. Based on linear voltage ram predictions, 4400-4500 cl16-17-17 should be achievable using this kit of ram while the 4000mhz cl14-15-15 1.55v 2x16gb kit of ram now being sold should be able to hit 4400-4500 cl16-17-17 at even lower voltage or tighter timings. I would expect a decent Z590 Motherboard and a 10900k to manage at the very least 4266mhz with safe memory controller voltages. 

 

Edit: The ram was around 280usd on Newegg. 

[gabberworld]

8 minutes ago, Krunkkracker said:

 

 

@Kerdeld I own an Intel system, Zentimings is an AMD based program and does not work. Ram voltage is currently set to 1.58v as it is Samsung B-die, which comes in XMP kits as high as 1.6v. VCCIO at 1.35v, VCCSA at 1.4v but the sensors are SuperIO so they're often showering inflated values compared to what they are in reality. Same with the DRAM voltage sensor. I stability tested using 3 cycles of TM5 with the anta777 extreme preset, 1 hour of OCCT memory, 1 hour of OCCT CPU Large AVX2 and several hours of Karhu.

 

It is a Trident Z Neo 4000mhz cl16-16-16 1.4v 2x16gb kit of ram. Based on linear voltage ram predictions, 4400-4500 cl16-17-17 should be achievable using this kit of ram while the 4000mhz cl14-15-15 1.55v 2x16gb kit of ram now being sold should be able to hit 4400-4500 cl16-17-17 at even lower voltage or tighter timings. I would expect a decent Z590 Motherboard and a 10900k to manage at the very least 4266mhz with safe memory controller voltages. 

 

Edit: The ram was around 280usd on Newegg. 

decent motherboard should hit the 5333 mhz like the MSI MPG Z590 Gaming Plus

 

 

[Krunkkracker]

5 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

decent motherboard should hit the 5333 mhz like the MSI MPG Z590 Gaming Plus

 

 

5333mhz will not be possible for daily use with a 10900k. The range I've seen after having posted 100k+ messages and 2+ years in the Overclocking Discord server is around 4266-4600mhz for a 10900k in a wide range of motherboards. For the 11900k in gear 2, 5333mhz is about the max I see for a very lucky CPU with a great memory controller and DJR ram, which will have pretty mediocre ram timings. Most end up at 3733-3866mhz in gear 1 with Samsung B-die or 4700~5000ish with gear 2 and Samsung B-die, DJR, or Rev E/N/B. 

 

The QVL for these motherboards is pretty loose validation. They typically use cherry picked ram with cherry picked processors, aka marketing tactics. 

[Kerdeld]

1 hour ago, Krunkkracker said:

 

 

@Kerdeld I own an Intel system, Zentimings is an AMD based program and does not work. Ram voltage is currently set to 1.58v as it is Samsung B-die, which comes in XMP kits as high as 1.6v. VCCIO at 1.35v, VCCSA at 1.4v but the sensors are SuperIO so they're often showering inflated values compared to what they are in reality. Same with the DRAM voltage sensor. I stability tested using 3 cycles of TM5 with the anta777 extreme preset, 1 hour of OCCT memory, 1 hour of OCCT CPU Large AVX2 and several hours of Karhu.

 

It is a Trident Z Neo 4000mhz cl16-16-16 1.4v 2x16gb kit of ram. Based on linear voltage ram predictions, 4400-4500 cl16-17-17 should be achievable using this kit of ram while the 4000mhz cl14-15-15 1.55v 2x16gb kit of ram now being sold should be able to hit 4400-4500 cl16-17-17 at even lower voltage or tighter timings. I would expect a decent Z590 Motherboard and a 10900k to manage at the very least 4266mhz with safe memory controller voltages. 

 

Edit: The ram was around 280usd on Newegg. 

Ah yes that's true I automatically said Zentimings haha 

wow those are some insane voltages I do not recommend to anyone here unless they know what they are doing (before someone copies it) xD

What are the exact voltages for your CPU, I see 1.685v but that can't be right? how are the temps for the CPU/Ram when you run something like OCCT? You must be using fans over the ram?

I also see you are using command rate 2, I wonder if ONI does care less about command rate and wants more bandwidth or it's just ram pushed higher compared to better command rates

[gabberworld]

43 minutes ago, Krunkkracker said:

5333mhz will not be possible for daily use with a 10900k. The range I've seen after having posted 100k+ messages and 2+ years in the Overclocking Discord server is around 4266-4600mhz for a 10900k in a wide range of motherboards. For the 11900k in gear 2, 5333mhz is about the max I see for a very lucky CPU with a great memory controller and DJR ram, which will have pretty mediocre ram timings. Most end up at 3733-3866mhz in gear 1 with Samsung B-die or 4700~5000ish with gear 2 and Samsung B-die, DJR, or Rev E/N/B. 

 

The QVL for these motherboards is pretty loose validation. They typically use cherry picked ram with cherry picked processors, aka marketing tactics. 

not every motherboard who have Z590 may not work at all even with 4000 mhz . as they not tested or they tested but failed. 

luckily some sellers type they webpages what is tested with o.c that way is easy-er search

[FGPraxis]

Time : 115sec
CPU : i7-10700F running@4.6Ghz HyperThreading off (55°C during test)
GC : MSI GTX1060
RAM : 2x8Go DDR4-3466 @1.4V RipjawsV (manual settings)
CAS : 15-15-15-35
HDD : SSD 860EVO 250Go (Win10Pro64) + SSD 860EVO 1To (games) + hdd Samsung 2To
MB MSI Z490 Gaming Plus

 

Time : 114sec
CPU : i7-10700F running@4.6Ghz HyperThreading off (55°C during test)
GC : MSI GTX1060
RAM : 2x8Go DDR4-3733 @1.4V RipjawsV (manual settings)
CAS : 16-16-16-36
HDD : SSD 860EVO 250Go (Win10Pro64) + SSD 860EVO 1To (games) + hdd Samsung 2To
MB MSI Z490 Gaming Plus

 

I manually overclocked the RAM (DDR4-3200CL14-14-14-34 XMP -> 117sec) to see the benefits, ran 2 times

@Kerdeld looks like we have the same RAM (you have the 2x16Go version), what is your Motherboard ? it may help Ryzen buyers like FJ, sorry if it was already asked

I'll keep the 3466CL15 setting, tRFC was left Auto = 607 and 620, and CR is shown as 2T, i may try to set CR to 1T

Next upgrade for me will probably be a 970EVOM2 1To, but i'm not sure it'll really help with load and save times because it must be CPU-RAM dependent

[Krunkkracker]

1 hour ago, Kerdeld said:

Ah yes that's true I automatically said Zentimings haha 

wow those are some insane voltages I do not recommend to anyone here unless they know what they are doing (before someone copies it) xD

What are the exact voltages for your CPU, I see 1.685v but that can't be right? how are the temps for the CPU/Ram when you run something like OCCT? You must be using fans over the ram?

I also see you are using command rate 2, I wonder if ONI does care less about command rate and wants more bandwidth or it's just ram pushed higher compared to better command rates

VID is the voltage request from the CPU, it's not what is delivered to the CPU on my motherboard since I'm using a manual voltage. I use 1.48v set voltage with Low loadline calibration, it ends up around 1.3-1.33v(VR VOUT sensor) during load in OCCT Small SSE for the CPU test.

 

Temperatures end up around 80-85c in Small SSE, 65-72c in Large AVX2, and generally around 50-60c during daily gaming use. The ram ends up at 38-39c with Furmark and TM5 running, with a fan on the ram itself(140mm). My motherboard is capable of doing 1t only at 3400mhz~ and below so I will leave that testing to someone else. It'll be hard to test if it cares about ram access latency or just bandwidth since just lowering frequency or just lowering timings will both end up modifying bandwidth and latency to a degree. I just go for max frequency and therefore max bandwidth since memory access latency stays roughly the same when fully tuned, regardless of frequency. 

 

[FGPraxis]

It seems like AMD have limited compatibility with 3733+Mhz DDR4, but still manage to perform very well with the correct ram and finely tuned settings

So what about for example DDR4-3600CL14 (-14-14-34@1.45V), from Gskill Trident Z Neo : F4-3600C14D-32GTZNA, price is decent (.de shop)

They seem to be top notch and are listed compatible with AMD (preferably X570 but B550 is also listed)

This is for FJ and other Ryzen users, not for me

[Kerdeld]

29 minutes ago, FGPraxis said:

Time : 115sec
CPU : i7-10700F running@4.6Ghz HyperThreading off (55°C during test)
GC : MSI GTX1060
RAM : 2x8Go DDR4-3466 @1.4V RipjawsV (manual settings)
CAS : 15-15-15-35
HDD : SSD 860EVO 250Go (Win10Pro64) + SSD 860EVO 1To (games) + hdd Samsung 2To
MB MSI Z490 Gaming Plus

 

Time : 114sec
CPU : i7-10700F running@4.6Ghz HyperThreading off (55°C during test)
GC : MSI GTX1060
RAM : 2x8Go DDR4-3733 @1.4V RipjawsV (manual settings)
CAS : 16-16-16-36
HDD : SSD 860EVO 250Go (Win10Pro64) + SSD 860EVO 1To (games) + hdd Samsung 2To
MB MSI Z490 Gaming Plus

 

I manually overclocked the RAM (DDR4-3200CL14-14-14-34 XMP -> 117sec) to see the benefits, ran 2 times

@Kerdeld looks like we have the same RAM (you have the 2x16Go version), what is your Motherboard ? it may help Ryzen buyers like FJ, sorry if it was already asked

I'll keep the 3466CL15 setting, tRFC was left Auto = 607 and 620, and CR is shown as 2T, i may try to set CR to 1T

Next upgrade for me will probably be a 970EVOM2 1To, but i'm not sure it'll really help with load and save times because it must be CPU-RAM dependent

I have 4 ram sticks each 8gb and my motherboard is MSI B450 Carbon Pro AC. I can link the exact model if needed (on my phone right now).

I would recommend lowering your tRFC to around 300-330 and see where you have no errors at 3466. Most likely 330-360 will be fine if you don’t want to do a lot of testing. 
tRFC does like one of the most work for ram overclocking in terms of fps in games.

the higher the MHz of the Ram, the higher tRFC needs to be and for b die this sees scaling with voltage. The numbers I suggested will most likely not need any extra voltage.  

15 minutes ago, FGPraxis said:

It seems like AMD have limited compatibility with 3733+Mhz DDR4, but still manage to perform very well with the correct ram and very finely tuned settings

So what about for example DDR4-3600CL14 (-14-14-34@1.45V), from Gskill Trident Z Neo : F4-3600C14D-32GTZNA, price is decent (.de shop)

They seem to be top notch and are listed compatible with AMD (preferably X570 but B550 is also listed)

The Ripjaws 3200cl14 @ 1.35v you have should also overclock to 3600cl14 at 1.45v.

Did you mean maybe for other people to buy the 3600cl14 kit so they don’t have to tweak anymore?

To be honest I think 3600cl16 which is cheaper with tweaked timings can be just as fast in ONI or almost. 
Since bandwidth seems to matter most with tweaked timings. 
 

I think a lot of the Ram stuff and prices depends if the user want buy and use or buy and overclock.

[Shakis87]

Spec

CPU : Ryzen 5 3600
Graphics card : GTX 1080
RAM : 32GB @ 3200MHz

CAS : 16 - 18 - 18 - 36  (I think, using CPU-Z and the values are in the order CL - tRCD - tRP - tRAS)
HDD : 1TB NVMe (shouldn't make a difference once the game is loaded into ram though i think)

 

Method and Results

Time 1:  2:37 (157 seconds) (restarted PC, launched ONI, ran test)

Time 2:  2:29 (149 seconds) (game still running after time 1, opened firefox and a few tabs and started writing this, game running in high priority CPU time, task manager and CPUz running)

Time 3: 3:09 (189 seconds) (Same as test 2 but this time limited to cores 10 and 11(core indexing starts at 0 remember))

Time 4:  2:50 (170 seconds) (same as test 2 but this time limited to cores 8, 9, 10 & 11)

Time 5: 2:40 (160 seconds) (same as test 2 but this time limited to cores 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 & 11)

Time 6: 2:36 (156 seconds) (same as test 2)

Time 7: 2:35 (155 seconds) (same as test 2)

 

Time 2, Time 6 and Time 7 were my triplicate tests under the same conditions (or as same as I could get them, I never reloaded the game I just left it running and re-timed)

2:26, 2:36, 2:35

 

Observations/Conclusion

It doesn't seem like Running the game in high priority on the CPU makes much of a difference to the results but what I did notice is that there was less "hitching" (where the game would freeze for what felt like 0.5 -1.0 seconds) when running in high priority.

During test 1 the game would regularly freeze completely for a second or a fraction of a second, almost like clockwork.

During the tests with high priority (tests 2 - 7) the game "hitched" once per test (observations may not be 100% accurate)

During the low core tests I noticed a drop in FPS. The FPS dropped to 7-8 on test 3, then 8-10 on test 4 and on the full core tests consistently 10-12

I monitored the Performance tab in task manager and it really only seems like 4 cores are used by the game, I've got some screen shots of it but I'll not upload just now unless requested.

 

Disclaimer
I've used the word 'core' here when really I think I should be saying 'logical processor' or something. It is a 6 core processor but when AMD's answer to hyper threading you get 2 CPUs per core. This is why I tried 2, 4, 6 and all 'cores'.

 

[FGPraxis]

@Kerdeld I see, it had to be a MSI Motherboard lol

tRFC 330-360, wow seems very low, default XMP value is 580, thanks for the info

 

 

IMO for Ryzen 5800X-5900X users the 3600CL16(-16-16-36 xmp on) seems to be a really good starting RAM (should sit around 111-112sec - xmp on no tweaks)

The 3600CL14 (Trident Z Neo : 1x F4-3600C14D-32GTZNA or better : 2x F4-3600C14D-16GTZNA) seems to be the perfect pick for exigent Ryzen users, buy and use (xmp on should sit around 109-110sec) or buy and tweak (should sit around 104sec), it gives more margin for ulterior fine tuning&high performance

 

4 RAM sticks benefit both AMD and Intel architecture, it's something i underestimated (quad channel RAM), well maybe i'll be able to put my hands on the exact same kit and go 32Go (edit : wrong for common use see next messages)

[tyraelpl]

16 hours ago, Tuberi said:

Your memory is probably rated for higher speed than what they are set to right now so enabling XMP in bios might give you a pretty big boost

 

I don't think ONI is capable of causing thermal throttling outside of a dual core CPU or a CPU with no cooler attached

OFC it is. I mean clearly, look at how much load it's able to put on CPU. All it takes is dusty stock cooler and there you go.

[Kerdeld]

28 minutes ago, Shakis87 said:

Spec

CPU : Ryzen 5 3600
Graphics card : GTX 1080
RAM : 32GB @ 3200MHz

CAS : 16 - 18 - 18 - 36  (I think, using CPU-Z and the values are in the order CL - tRCD - tRP - tRAS)
HDD : 1TB NVMe (shouldn't make a difference once the game is loaded into ram though i think)

 

Method and Results

Time 1:  2:37 (157 seconds) (restarted PC, launched ONI, ran test)

Time 2:  2:29 (149 seconds) (game still running after time 1, opened firefox and a few tabs and started writing this, game running in high priority CPU time, task manager and CPUz running)

Time 3: 3:09 (189 seconds) (Same as test 2 but this time limited to cores 10 and 11(core indexing starts at 0 remember))

Time 4:  2:50 (170 seconds) (same as test 2 but this time limited to cores 8, 9, 10 & 11)

Time 5: 2:40 (160 seconds) (same as test 2 but this time limited to cores 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 & 11)

Time 6: 2:36 (156 seconds) (same as test 2)

Time 7: 2:35 (155 seconds) (same as test 2)

 

Time 2, Time 6 and Time 7 were my triplicate tests under the same conditions (or as same as I could get them, I never reloaded the game I just left it running and re-timed)

2:26, 2:36, 2:35

 

Observations/Conclusion

It doesn't seem like Running the game in high priority on the CPU makes much of a difference to the results but what I did notice is that there was less "hitching" (where the game would freeze for what felt like 0.5 -1.0 seconds) when running in high priority.

During test 1 the game would regularly freeze completely for a second or a fraction of a second, almost like clockwork.

During the tests with high priority (tests 2 - 7) the game "hitched" once per test (observations may not be 100% accurate)

During the low core tests I noticed a drop in FPS. The FPS dropped to 7-8 on test 3, then 8-10 on test 4 and on the full core tests consistently 10-12

I monitored the Performance tab in task manager and it really only seems like 4 cores are used by the game, I've got some screen shots of it but I'll not upload just now unless requested.

 

Disclaimer
I've used the word 'core' here when really I think I should be saying 'logical processor' or something. It is a 6 core processor but when AMD's answer to hyper threading you get 2 CPUs per core. This is why I tried 2, 4, 6 and all 'cores'.

 

Can you try it again with only the logical cores 10/8/6/4/2 ?  skip 11/9/7/5/3/1/0 

 

24 minutes ago, FGPraxis said:

@Kerdeld I see, it had to be a MSI Motherboard lol

tRFC 330-360, wow seems very low, default XMP value is 580, thanks for the info

 

 

IMO for Ryzen 5800X-5900X users the 3600CL16(-16-16-36 xmp on) seems to be a really good starting RAM (should sit around 111-112sec - xmp on no tweaks)

The 3600CL14 (Trident Z Neo : 1x F4-3600C14D-32GTZNA or better : 2x F4-3600C14D-16GTZNA) seems to be the perfect pick for exigent Ryzen users, buy and use (xmp on should sit around 109-110sec) or buy and tweak (should sit around 104sec), it gives more margin for ulterior fine tuning&high performance

 

4 RAM sticks benefit both AMD and Intel architecture, it's something i underestimated (quad channel RAM), well maybe i'll be able to put my hands on the exact same kit and go 32Go

Yes tRFC can get low for b-die if you do it right it can even go under 300 but it will be more prone for errors and might need extra voltage.

There is no quad channel support for Ryzen 5xxx,

Note that it is beneficial to have two 'ranks' per channel, so if you have 4x single sided dimms it will give you better performance than 2x single sided dimms but at potentially a lower stable clock than 2x double sided or 2x single sided dimms.

[FGPraxis]

@Kerdeld oups yes quad channel is only for Threadripper for AMD (i7 i9 for Intel), i wasn't precise enough (threadripper are expensive monsters)

[gabberworld]

1 hour ago, Kerdeld said:

I have 4 ram sticks each 8gb and my motherboard is MSI B450 Carbon Pro AC.

 

that motherboard seems limited to the 3466 as max?

i to find similar board as well what goes up to 4133

B450 GAMING PRO CARBON MAX WIFI

they both looks almost like identical

 

[Kerdeld]

4 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

that motherboard seems limited to the 3466 as max?

i to find similar board as well what goes up to 4133

B450 GAMING PRO CARBON MAX WIFI

 

[gabberworld]

1 minute ago, Kerdeld said:

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-AC/Specification

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-MAX-WIFI/Specification

[Kerdeld]

11 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-AC/Specification

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-MAX-WIFI/Specification

lol you don't trust me? xD it's the B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC 

 

this is where I bought it (euro's) in 2019

I installed that chipset 10x so I'm 100% sure haha I know the max is 3466 but I think that's for XMP/DOCP not for manual overclocking.

 

[gabberworld]

5 minutes ago, Kerdeld said:

lol you don't trust me? xD it's the B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC

 

not that. it just not possible buy that anymore(they not make those anymore). replacement is the B450 GAMING PRO CARBON MAX WIFI

[Kerdeld]

Just now, gabberworld said:

not that. it just not possible buy that anymore. replacement is the B450 GAMING PRO CARBON MAX WIFI

Cool

[gabberworld]

you know what is funny about this test. its only half cycle test. that lost time doubles with 1 game cycle.

for example if you have currently. 120 sec

what means you actually lose 40 sec for every cycle. i not even start talk about the higher times.

100 sec not counts as that is limit.

[FGPraxis]

@Kerdeld and @gabberwold

MSI carbon series motherboards are a very good series, but they managed to put wifi on all this series, it's very redundant and a good reason to go for the Gaming plus series or Gigabyte Aorus elite/pro series (v2)

 

And last final definitive test :

Time : 112sec
CPU : i7-10700F running@4.6Ghz HyperThreading off (55°C during test)
GC : MSI GTX1060
RAM : 2x8Go DDR4-3600 @1.4V RipjawsV (manual settings)
CAS : 15-15-15-35 (tRFC 360, CR1T)
HDD : SSD 860EVO 250Go (Win10Pro64) + SSD 860EVO 1To (games) + hdd Samsung 2To
MB MSI Z490 Gaming Plus

 

I played a little with "memory try it" option in MSI Bios, very interesting, i guess i found a sweet spot

There is even a 5000Mhz setting for my 3200C14 lol (with horrible timings and 1.5V max stress, i didn't try it!)

Also i checked and quad channel is only for X299 chipset series, bye quad channel for my i7

[Kerdeld]

19 minutes ago, FGPraxis said:

@Kerdeld and @gabberwold

MSI carbon series motherboards are a very good series, but they managed to put wifi on all this series, it's very redundant and a good reason to go for the Gaming plus series or Gigabyte Aorus elite/pro series (v2)

 

And last final definitive test :

Time : 112sec
CPU : i7-10700F running@4.6Ghz HyperThreading off (55°C during test)
GC : MSI GTX1060
RAM : 2x8Go DDR4-3600 @1.4V RipjawsV (manual settings)
CAS : 15-15-15-35 (tRFC 360, CR1T)
HDD : SSD 860EVO 250Go (Win10Pro64) + SSD 860EVO 1To (games) + hdd Samsung 2To
MB MSI Z490 Gaming Plus

 

I played a little with "memory try it" option in MSI Bios, very interesting, i guess i found a sweet spot

There is even a 5000Mhz setting for my 3200C14 lol (with horrible timings and 1.5V max stress, i didn't try it!)

Also i checked and quad channel is only for X299 chipset series, bye quad channel for my i7

did you also try the tRFC 360 for the 3733cl16 you was using before?