The Irrational Fear of Duplicant Death

[Magheat2009]

A penalty should not be considered too harsh just because it causes duplicant death. Discussion around penalties should be around how difficult they actually make the game, and not around attachment to totally replaceable, not at all real, save skummable, debug respawnable duplicants. 

[Gurgel]

Depends on how much you are willing to break immersion. If you just see this as a building simulation with some MOBs thrown in, sure. But one thing that does it for some people (me included) is to see the Dupes as individuals and the excellent animation work by Klei makes that easy. 

So remember that your stance is _yours_ and may well be significantly different from equally valid stances of other people. 

That said, sure there should be things that kill dupes. They just should be avoidable and that will, at least for some players, provide a nice extra challenge.

 

[Magheat2009]

1 hour ago, Gurgel said:

So remember that your stance is _yours_ and may well be significantly different from equally valid stances of other people. 

What makes a stance valid?

[Gurgel]

8 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

What makes a stance valid?

A valid argument supporting it. That one can well reference a personal preference though. Such as the ones you have stated. Yes, those are _preferences_. 

[Poop_Mouth]

12 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Depends on how much you are willing to break immersion. If you just see this as a building simulation with some MOBs thrown in, sure. But one thing that does it for some people (me included) is to see the Dupes as individuals and the excellent animation work by Klei makes that easy. 

So remember that your stance is _yours_ and may well be significantly different from equally valid stances of other people. 

That said, sure there should be things that kill dupes. They just should be avoidable and that will, at least for some players, provide a nice extra challenge.

 

I wanna be this immersed. Starting a new game. Thanks

[Magheat2009]

5 hours ago, Gurgel said:

A valid argument supporting it

So, what makes an argument invalid? 

[Tytan]

I don't know how I still get scared when I read this forum kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[QuQuasar]

47 minutes ago, Magheat2009 said:

So, what makes an argument invalid? 

You are the one who implied that the playstyles of others were invalid when you declared that discussion of difficulty should not include attachment to the duplicants.

Please answer this question yourself, instead of instructing the people who disagree with you to do so.

[Gurgel]

38 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

You are the one who implied that the playstyles of others were invalid when you declared that discussion of difficulty should not include attachment to the duplicants.

Please answer this question yourself, instead of instructing the people who disagree with you to do so.

I have nothing to add to that.

[RobinSong]

On 7/22/2021 at 7:05 AM, Magheat2009 said:

totally replaceable, not at all real, save skummable, debug respawnable duplicants. 

How dare you talk about my Gossmans like that >:(

[icuurd12b42]

 

I actually think a duplicant's death and injuries should have a larger impact than what it is now.  From Devastating friends to barely affecting others... depending on the size of the colony the death or injury could affect everyone to just a few.  And to the point the colony would be at risk and the player losing the game if the wrong dupe dies.... After all the fact that they have a morale system the player should have a moral system that match their need.

Frankly I played with both attitudes, caring and careless. careless is less expensive, the game makes it easy. you don't even need med beds or doctors, injured dupes heal in a few days, it's like meh, geyser is spewing 100 degree water,  just don't pass out adding those 5 blocks to complete the project... and I think that's a mistake, personally... 

 

This Discussion reminds me of this...

 

 

[Magheat2009]

On 7/23/2021 at 2:00 PM, QuQuasar said:

You are the one who implied that the playstyles of others were invalid when you declared that discussion of difficulty should not include attachment to the duplicants.

Please answer this question yourself, instead of instructing the people who disagree with you to do so.

Can you please explain what **playstyle** am I declaraing invalid? Before you answer, random whims like 'I fell in love with Nisbet-She got hit by a radbolt-I did not bother with the doctoring proiority-She died (I am a widow now)-I don't like reloading autosaves-Klei are cruel, please nerf radbolts'-Do not qualify as **playstyles**. That been said making the game too difficult or having a dupe die randomly every 10 cycles is not something I would recommend as good for the game.

I might also add, that loss adds value. Same duplicants running around for 1500 start to grow old on you. A new duplicant to look for and select, train and new traits to deal with mixes brings in a bit of newness from time to time. Plus, dupes you find cute getting in *real* danger from time to time keeps things exciting. 

On 7/23/2021 at 1:49 PM, Tytan said:

I don't know how I still get scared when I read this forum kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Whats this supposed to mean? 

On 7/23/2021 at 2:39 PM, Gurgel said:

I have nothing to add to that.

You simply dodged the question. I asked you that question because you wanted to equate almost all opinions around the game together. All preferences are valid arguments, while laying no baseline for what a valid preference might be. As said before do not confuse whims with playstyle. Casual or meticulous, small or big base are playstyles, not I dont like using automation for some weird reason, so game must cater to me while I ruin the fun for everyone else. Also, the game cannot cater to everyone at the same time. It can be best what it is, all be a jack of all trades. There are a lot of very good games in the market, they provide different experiences. If you want to play City Skylines in Sims 4 for some weird reason, the devs cannot, should not waste development resources or design a faulty game for that. Look at games like Eve Online. It provides an experience which some people live mini-lives in, but that comes at the cost of not being able to cater to everyone. 

[Occam Blazer]

3 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

Can you please explain what **playstyle** am I declaraing invalid?

Quote

The Irrational (sic) Fear of Duplicant Death

 

[Maxposting]

Even the player (spoiler)

Spoiler

The AI inside the printing pod

in le logs is more afraid of losing dupes than the majority of the playerbase

[Tytan]

7 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

Whats this supposed to mean? 

each has their playerstyle
if anyone thinks the characters should die because he thinks their death will benefit him, that's fine, it's his playerstyle
if anyone thinks the characters' lives are valuable enough to him that they don't die and will protect them to the end, that's fine, that's his playerstyle.

now what we "can't" do is treat our playerstyle as if it's the standard for everyone else in a sandbox style game, there are people who play gta and kill every pedestrians on the street, i think it's sadistic, but it's their playerstyle, there are people who even respect the traffic lights and that's ok

my comment is exactly for things like that, because a lot of people come here with a view of the world and want everything to be the way they want it, a few months ago there was a guy wanting the death penalty in the game because he was tired of the dupes being stressed (things that can be adjusted in the options), and okay! kill the duplicates, what you "shouldn't" is questioning it as if people who think otherwise are wrong and that's common.

"Don't you kill the pedestrians in gta and keep stepping on their bodies while they're gone? Do you pity artificial intelligence?"

  

the idea of the game is to be a space colony survival and simulation game, and survival is one of the keys to the game, if you treat everything in it as disposable, it stops being a survival game and becomes a simulation game only , next step is to take out the duplicates and leave only the machines doing the work themselves "bleh I don't want to have to worry about these dupes", and what would a space colony be without the colonists?

the lore of the game already does something similar "before everything blows up", where everything in it is a prototype of tests and the dupes are disposable, but they are disposable for those conducting the research and not for them, for them it's their life, for this is a simulation game: for them they're living, it's their life, it's their survival, so yes when their companion dies of course they'll be devastated they're in space don't know where they came from don't know where go, they don't know they're guinea pigs, they don't even know there was a civilization before they don't even know if they'll be the last, they don't know what they can or can't eat, they don't even know if they have oxygen and they just want to prosper

no I didn't romanticize all this on purpose, it's in the lore and it's in the game description

and it's okay for you to come in and say "but I like it better when they die, they're really boring and they're hard work" okay, but that's not how the game was conceived, that's your playerstyle

[Magheat2009]

On 7/25/2021 at 7:34 AM, Tytan said:

and it's okay for you to come in and say "but I like it better when they die, they're really boring and they're hard work" okay, but that's not how the game was conceived, that's your playerstyle

I could have done such a better job discussing this and explaning where I am coming from. I am not proposing that dupes should die all the time, but rather criticising the fact that the game has increasingly become too safe a place for duplicants, even when they are up against situations which should thematiclly make their survival difficult. I was looking forward to a dangerous risk/reward scenario with radiation, which screams danger in its name, yet it has not lived up to the expectation so far imo. It is a survival game, yet the survival aspects gotten pushed back in favour of the game being just an engineering challenge. Current state of the disease system is one such example. I love duplicants, but I also see that the game has lost some of its full potential by making it too hard to mess up and endanger a duplicant. Dangerous things in game need to be actually dangerous, not a make believe. The post is titled the way it is because I suspect the game has gotten a bit watered down because of people who get upset just because a duplicant died. I am here to demonstrate that because of options like making duplicants invincible using debug, respawing using sandbox or simply reloading an autosave before the fatal error, such complaints are rediculous and should be ignored. I think just the disease difficulty slider having an actual effect will solve some of my issues with the game currently. I also want to say that recently Klei have been very brave with decisions they have made against some, quite frankly, idiotic pushback. The direction the game development is currently going makes me happy. Lastly, I want discussion around whether a penalty is too much to be based more on how difficult it makes for the colony to survive vs. risks of individual duplicant death. For example, a penalty which makes duplicants die easily will also be bad for the survival of the colony. A penalty which disables a lot of dupliancts for a long time will also make the player lose the game easily. However, a penalty which can sometime kill a duplicant on being too careless actually does not make the game too difficult while still being something to be avoided, and paid attention to. Another idea is something moderate if affecting lot of duplicants at the same time (as in a carelessness caused epidemic) meaning something significant for the colony as a whole (increases calorie consumption en-masse/decreases overall productivity). Whomping willow in the DLC is good example of something which is actually dangerous without being rediculous or just being a pretend problem. I liked when the radbolts incapacitated duplicants, they did not just immediately die, but will if no attention has been paid to doctoring errand priorities. 

[Tytan]

Spoiler

8 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

I could have done such a better job discussing this and explaning where I am coming from. I am not proposing that dupes should die all the time, but rather criticising the fact that the game has increasingly become too safe a place for duplicants, even when they are up against situations which should thematiclly make their survival difficult. I was looking forward to a dangerous risk/reward scenario with radiation, which screams danger in its name, yet it has not lived up to the expectation so far imo. It is a survival game, yet the survival aspects gotten pushed back in favour of the game being just an engineering challenge. Current state of the disease system is one such example. I love duplicants, but I also see that the game has lost some of its full potential by making it too hard to mess up and endanger a duplicant. Dangerous things in game need to be actually dangerous, not a make believe. The post is titled the way it is because I suspect the game has gotten a bit watered down because of people who get upset just because a duplicant died. I am here to demonstrate that because of options like making duplicants invincible using debug, respawing using sandbox or simply reloading an autosave before the fatal error, such complaints are rediculous and should be ignored. I think just the disease difficulty slider having an actual effect will solve some of my issues with the game currently. I also want to say that recently Klei have been very brave with decisions they have made against some, quite frankly, idiotic pushback. The direction the game development is currently going makes me happy. Lastly, I want discussion around whether a penalty is too much to be based more on how difficult it makes for the colony to survive vs. risks of individual duplicant death. For example, a penalty which makes duplicants die easily will also be bad for the survival of the colony. A penalty which disables a lot of dupliancts for a long time will also make the player lose the game easily. However, a penalty which can sometime kill a duplicant on being too careless actually does not make the game too difficult while still being something to be avoided, and paid attention to. Another idea is something moderate if affecting lot of duplicants at the same time (as in a carelessness caused epidemic) meaning something significant for the colony as a whole (increases calorie consumption en-masse/decreases overall productivity). Whomping willow in the DLC is good example of something which is actually dangerous without being rediculous or just being a pretend problem. I liked when the radbolts incapacitated duplicants, they did not just immediately die, but will if no attention has been paid to doctoring errand priorities. 

 

 

ahhhhhhhhhhhh now you made everything clear, the way you said it seemed that you already thought the cause of death and the mourning status that was applied to the duplicates was heavy, and I believe that many here thought you referred to this

I'm sorry I misinterpreted xD

and I agree with everything you said, yes the game got easier as time went by, it was even a suggestion I had given a while ago about the possibility of there being more aggressive critters or dangerous biomes and maybe even space pirates

with that I saw that there are many people who were bothered with this idea, saying that this is not the idea of the game, since the game is about survival... precisely because the status of the game is now more simulation and base building than survival, especially for those who already know the game or have mega-developed bases

and what actually doesn't help much is my perspective behind it all, I would like it to be as difficult to survive as the don't stave, but that's where my study in game design comes in...
the game is currently at a level far above normal, either the person is dedicated to learning some interesting building plans or the beginning of the game and learning them will be disastrous

some friends of mine watching me play or talking about the game, they are interested in the game for science fiction and the countless possibilities of builds (of logic gates), but when they see them, they say something "brow, I have to do a doctorate in this game to be able to understand him right" imagine that if death were at your door for any mistake xD (I'd like it) after all as I said once the saying "in space no one can hear you scream"

the way the game is currently i play in the background watching a series, i have them build dig and i let them do it till it's over, the problem with making the game more "dangerous" these days is that people are too afraid of change

[NeoDeusMachina]

13 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

I could have done such a better job discussing this and explaning where I am coming from.

Agreed - To be honest, I wish you had expressed yourself that way from the beginning instead of how you did it and by asking things like "define this or that". It made me think you were just here to troll and did not care about what others were saying, which made me not want to engage in any discussion with you until now. In any case, thanks for clarifying your opinion, now it makes sense. I agree with you that things could be more dangerous for our duplicants. I was really hoping radiation would be exactly that, but so far, it is either 1) disappointing in terms of risks/consequences, 2) maybe it is okay and we just have enough tools to counteract it's negative effects, 3) a lot of us are experienced enough with the game that no matter what survival aspect/danger they throw at our duplicants, we will easily find work arounds, or 4) insert other opinions here.

[ZombieDupe]

I was about to say you were being very vague and not making any particular point, with zero examples, but we have some elaboration now (but please use paragraph formatting for longer posts, harder to read otherwise).

20 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

I could have done such a better job discussing this and explaning where I am coming from. I am not proposing that dupes should die all the time, but rather criticising the fact that the game has increasingly become too safe a place for duplicants, even when they are up against situations which should thematiclly make their survival difficult. I was looking forward to a dangerous risk/reward scenario with radiation, which screams danger in its name, yet it has not lived up to the expectation so far imo. It is a survival game, yet the survival aspects gotten pushed back in favour of the game being just an engineering challenge. Current state of the disease system is one such example. I love duplicants, but I also see that the game has lost some of its full potential by making it too hard to mess up and endanger a duplicant. Dangerous things in game need to be actually dangerous, not a make believe. The post is titled the way it is because I suspect the game has gotten a bit watered down because of people who get upset just because a duplicant died.

I am here to demonstrate that because of options like making duplicants invincible using debug, respawing using sandbox or simply reloading an autosave before the fatal error, such complaints are rediculous and should be ignored. I think just the disease difficulty slider having an actual effect will solve some of my issues with the game currently. I also want to say that recently Klei have been very brave with decisions they have made against some, quite frankly, idiotic pushback. The direction the game development is currently going makes me happy.

Lastly, I want discussion around whether a penalty is too much to be based more on how difficult it makes for the colony to survive vs. risks of individual duplicant death. For example, a penalty which makes duplicants die easily will also be bad for the survival of the colony. A penalty which disables a lot of dupliancts for a long time will also make the player lose the game easily. However, a penalty which can sometime kill a duplicant on being too careless actually does not make the game too difficult while still being something to be avoided, and paid attention to. Another idea is something moderate if affecting lot of duplicants at the same time (as in a carelessness caused epidemic) meaning something significant for the colony as a whole (increases calorie consumption en-masse/decreases overall productivity). Whomping willow in the DLC is good example of something which is actually dangerous without being rediculous or just being a pretend problem. I liked when the radbolts incapacitated duplicants, they did not just immediately die, but will if no attention has been paid to doctoring errand priorities. 

A good analysis and take on difficulty, challenge and risk here honestly. Getting attached to a duplicant can make your gameplay more immersive, but it definitely should not take effect on having a players' disgruntlement of that make a sole duplicant's survival so easy. I have yet to see this sort of argument being brought up anywhere by anyone though, so I'm not sure where you are coming from with that claim. Or is this addressed specifically for the seeming intention of how Klei are balancing the game anyway, given that diseases and many dangers pose little to no threat to even a single duplicant?

If the idiotic pushback is in reference to the food freezing mechanic, also agreed, but I think there is a different reason as to why there is backlash rather than the expressed notion of food preservation and maintenance being a chore. That being version control. People have set up colonies that rely on the old mechanics, which they can no longer rely on and have to desperately try and readjust to a much more complex system very quickly, just because of an update. I think if we had the option to revert to a previous version much more easily and each created save being locked behind a previous version if specified by the developer (so you would need to revert o a previous version of the game if you wanted to view and continue playing a save that could only run on permanent food storage before the food preservation update), the backlash would be significantly lower..

[crbd115]

41 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I think if we had the option to revert to a previous version much more easily and each created save being locked behind a previous version if specified by the developer (so you would need to revert o a previous version of the game if you wanted to view and continue playing a save that could only run on permanent food storage before the food preservation update), the backlash would be significantly lower..

On that note I just started playing rimworld again for the first time in 4 years after all this shenanigans to see how the two games compare now. I was surprised to see that in the betas option they have all the previous updates as options. Idk why klei doesnt do this. Mostly just so that people can keep the version they started their base on at least if they want to. Unless a bug or some other road block forces them to update at least they would have the option.

[Gurgel]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:48 PM, Magheat2009 said:

You simply dodged the question. 

Nope. 

[Tytan]

9 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

so you would need to revert o a previous version of the game

so you are one of the favored to have the option to select version huuuuum

so I believe the game is still in development, I believe the base game hasn't reached the point they wanted yet and because of that they are always pushing us forward with updates so that all players are on the same version for that they test stability and gameplay

either they will release when they get the way they want the game so you can select your version, or they haven't split the game files update by update

I believe in the first option, since every patch is always numbered, even inside the game with watermark so you can have a sense of where you are playing, and they have this forum here exclusively for atts:

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/game-updates/oni-so/

thing that don't starve doesn't have, neither together

for me the biggest proof of that (and that they want money obviously, they are a company) was the creation of dlc, which adds a lot of things, okay, but it brought a very sudden change in the space system and because of that they must have stayed with the back foot in displeasing people here who don't like changes and decided to "create a new way to play" so whoever wanted to would buy, whoever didn't, would stay in the previous one, along with that came the "big merge" update that showed that they were working on 2 different databases for each version, so yes, from my perspective it's just a matter of time

[Ntr1cate]

On 7/23/2021 at 5:09 PM, Gurgel said:

I have nothing to add to that.

I nearly laughed (in agreement) when I read this answer.

It's funny, if they actually read what you wrote instead of selectively quoting to suit their arguement without reference to the entirety of what you wrote (where the answer lays), they would have realized your answer was very clear. Honestly I am gonna have to start using this quote as my reply to trolls from now on.

Having said that, OPs post is probably more a troll post instead of a discussion post as the replies running thru here seem more nitpicking, opinion bashing and selective reading instead of discussion.

============

I have nothing to add to this.

 

[hbarudi]

It takes too long to get back later skills if only dupe with the skills dies. So try to keep them alive. I don't like it when they die not to mention the stress and morale loss when they lose one especially if it is a preventable death and when they trap themselves in carbon dioxide and can't breathe.

[Tytan]

1 hour ago, hbarudi said:

It takes too long to get back later skills if only dupe with the skills dies. So try to keep them alive. I don't like it when they die not to mention the stress and morale loss when they lose one especially if it is a preventable death and when they trap themselves in carbon dioxide and can't breathe.

and then I repeat what the topic owner said:
"just reload the game in the latest save"

all losses can be resolved