What is the best way to melt natural Wolframite?

[Hjoyn]

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Cant say it 13% energy lost consider you still can harvest them after done melting via steam turbine. And metal refinery give energy base on session and material, so as long as you use good refinery material like steel/aluminium/iron, you actually gain energy.

Actually, it's 42% heat lost (2900 vs 3400, assuming a preheat temp of 1700 from magma), because metal refinery heat cannot be recovered, as it fundamentally costs low renewability materials to generate that heat, not just power. 

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

you still have to control so that your metalrefinery setup wont overheat, and it is much more pain to control this than melting one.

Regardless of which method you use, you need temperature control, as I've said multiple times now. Your lack of it is recklessness or inefficiency, not an advantage. 

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

it is still much easier and faster to run metal refinery 100% of the time for the cost of 13% more energy needed, than run metal refinery 50% of the time.

I have no idea where this number comes from. In both methods, the limit on heat transfer speed is the interface, not the refinery. If you want to flake faster, add more tempshifts between the heating medium and the chlorine. If you want to melt faster, use more diamond tiles. Both methods are limited by the tc of diamond, so the limiting factor is the same with both methods. The difference is therefore that  flaking requires 42% less heat transfer overall.

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

But refined carbon is still totally unneeded, they not even contact any gas in your setup xD

As the ore is flaked and melted away, the gas will move up and contact the refined carbon. It's primarily for shaping the gas to get that optimal bottom up flaking profile. Again, I've said this several times now. 

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

One thing i noticed when straight melting them is wolframite turn into liquid tungsten at 2926, and if the atsmostphere is vacuum and there are no tile below it, it will keep acting as liquid. Is there anyway to split a bead of 1200kg liquid into small bead in vaccum so that they wont turn into solid chunk? If so you still only need the heat as flaking, but it will be much faster because you flaking the entire block now.

In theory you might be able to do some kind of bead splitting, but that would almost certainly require wolframite mesh tiles. 

Prince Mandor made a good point, you asked for the best method, and you've been given the best we've got. Whether you choose to utilize it is up to you, but continuing to ignore or make bad arguments is not advancing the stated goal of generating the best method possible. 

[Tranoze]

4 hours ago, Hjoyn said:

Actually, it's 42% heat lost (2900 vs 3400, assuming a preheat temp of 1700 from magma), because metal refinery heat cannot be recovered, as it fundamentally costs low renewability materials to generate that heat, not just power. 

Maybe other map can heat it through magma, but for my current map with frozen core and the closest volcano is half the map away, preheat via magma is not an option. Even if consider that you need to preheat them to atleast 1100 for you to be able to work with liquid steel, it's still 27%

4 hours ago, Hjoyn said:

I have no idea where this number comes from. In both methods, the limit on heat transfer speed is the interface, not the refinery.

Isnt there a limit where clorine get heat up too fast and it end up melting the entire chunk of wolframite instead of flaking them? Straight melting them doesnt have such a limit because you are going to melt them anyway. And im not talking about heat transfer speed, im talking about limit of flaking heat removal, because it can only drop 5kg each time.

[Hjoyn]

18 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Even if consider that you need to preheat them to atleast 1100 for you to be able to work with liquid steel, it's still 27%

27% is still significant when dealing with low renewability heat sources. 

18 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Isnt there a limit where clorine get heat up too fast and it end up melting the entire chunk of wolframite instead of flaking them? Straight melting them doesnt have such a limit because you are going to melt them anyway. And im not talking about heat transfer speed, im talking about limit of flaking heat removal, because it can only drop 5kg each time.

Apparently not, I did some tests with 4000° lead gas for maximum conduction, and it never melted the wolframite until it was sub 5kg. I'm guessing the "cooling" scales with flaking rate, and thus it will never overheat in the proper configuration. 

[Tranoze]

8 hours ago, Hjoyn said:

Apparently not, I did some tests with 4000° lead gas for maximum conduction, and it never melted the wolframite until it was sub 5kg. I'm guessing the "cooling" scales with flaking rate, and thus it will never overheat in the proper configuration. 

Ok now i really want to know the max speed of flaking, in video term xD. There are too little setup of flaking avaiable online for us to know the best.

[mathmanican]

3 hours ago, Tranoze said:

max speed of flaking

5kg per tick so 25kg/s. The wiki has references now.

[Prince Mandor]

3 hours ago, Tranoze said:

max speed of flaking

flaking in perfect conditions is 25 kg/s/cell

But one metal refinery producing steel generate enough warmth to melt a typical 600kg wolframite cell in about 100 seconds (unlit, 0 skill, no waiting for coolant or material), so limiting factor is refining speed, not flaking speed.

flaking AFAIK do not have any serious temperature bugs, so to melt wolframite by flaking you need enough power to melt wolframite

[Tranoze]

5 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

flaking in perfect conditions is 25 kg/s/cell

But one metal refinery producing steel generate enough warmth to melt a typical 600kg wolframite cell in about 100 seconds (unlit, 0 skill, no waiting for coolant or material), so limiting factor is refining speed, not flaking speed.

flaking AFAIK do not have any serious temperature bugs, so to melt wolframite by flaking you need enough power to melt wolframite

Doesnt mean you cant go for 2nd or even 3rd metal refinery though.

This is a rough blueprint i make for flaking them, flaking child doesnt have to be gas right? So stright using liquid steel might be better than use gas at this point. Dupe can go in and build up after each layer is melt.

And if you messed up and have tungsten form tile, can just go to all melt mode with this one.

[mathmanican]

42 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

flaking child doesnt have to be gas right

To flake solids, the donor MUST be gas. Liquid steel won't cause flaking to happen. 

• Parent =  Wolframite Tile
• Child = Tungsten liquid droplet of 5kg
• Donor = Must be a gas. 

[robotic_gamer]

most of my knowledge is theory or possibly outdated but a few ideas

- obsidian radbolt generators can slowly heat it up to 2700C

- you can get molten steel for using as refinery coolant by running a steel kiln in a vaccum then dropping it through mesh tile onto a steel pump.(a few trys are needed to get the steel mesh up to temperature and you need to replace the pump every time

- then run the molten steel through multiple refineries in series until it is nearly boiling then drop it on the wolframite

- I recommend insulated pipes of ceramic to transport the molten steel

- to cool down the molten tungsten without forming blocks, make it flow long distances (with multiple vertical levels) until it stops flowing. then slowly cool from end of the flow going upstream until its all cooled down. this way your freezing the smallest amount that can flow at a time which shouldn't form blocks.

edit:in theory you could make liquid steel with obsidian radbolt generators

[Prince Mandor]

3 hours ago, Tranoze said:

This is a rough blueprint i make for flaking them

Okay, I just get mine own first advice from this topic "small room filled with steam" and built it in sandbox

And it works perfectly for most part

Spoiler

 

And 36 cycles later

Spoiler

 

As you can see, at this point last three cells of wolframite became too hot (it must be 3  below melting temperature)

So, I corner-built diamond tempshift plate in top left corner, and destroy it.

It cools down wolframite a bit. After that I connected bottom diamond walls to speed-up heating a bit. And voila

Spoiler

 

So, yes it can be done without any cosmic technology, just with vacuum and bit of ceramic. It is relatively fast, starting dupes made it in less than 50 cycles. It can be done with more efficiency, for example carbon walls at top will be a lot better.

But simple "create small room with steam and flake it" works

BTW, steam is 50g/cell, and 16.3 tons of steel was refined in process

 

 

[Prince Mandor]

14 hours ago, Tranoze said:

This is a rough blueprint

Problem: pump can pump only 10 kg of molten steel per 2 seconds, so you need minimum 80 seconds for each refill of refinery. As result, with light and good processing skill even one refinery will works faster than refill.

Another problem, liquid steel must not touch wolframite. Wolframite have extremely good thermal conduction, but we need it as cold as possible, so at least one cell between it and molten steel, diamond or thempshift

One more thing, you need to control temperature -- steel evaporate at 3826C and refinery heat it up by 606, so no steel hotter than 3220C must be allowed to come back into refinery. I usualy set thermosensor on 3200C just in case

[Tranoze]

2 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Problem: pump can pump only 10 kg of molten steel per 2 seconds, so you need minimum 80 seconds for each refill of refinery. As result, with light and good processing skill even one refinery will works faster than refill.

Another problem, liquid steel must not touch wolframite. Wolframite have extremely good thermal conduction, but we need it as cold as possible, so at least one cell between it and molten steel, diamond or thempshift

One more thing, you need to control temperature -- steel evaporate at 3826C and refinery heat it up by 606, so no steel hotter than 3220C must be allowed to come back into refinery. I usualy set thermosensor on 3200C just in case

The only problem is that liquid steel wont cause flake to happen. You can switch material from refining steel to refine iron/aluminium for the last bit of temperature.
After some sandbox test, i noticed, you guys are right about flake, they are awesome, the speed limit of flake is so good that even liquid lead is useable, so lead is better to be used than steam room.

[gabberworld]

this kind setup needs patience, i think once i almost build  this up but then i give up and used dupes for dig

[Prince Mandor]

1 hour ago, Tranoze said:

The only problem is that liquid steel wont cause flake to happen.

I already tested it. It does

Steel entering refinery at 3200C exits it at 3806C and this is lot more than needed

to start flaking we just need any gas (steam or lead) to be 2930C (3203K), so there are plenty of heat to heat gas enough

[Hjoyn]

12 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Problem: pump can pump only 10 kg of molten steel per 2 seconds, so you need minimum 80 seconds for each refill of refinery. As result, with light and good processing skill even one refinery will works faster than refill.

This is not true, contactless pumps can operate at full throughput of 10kg/s. 

[Tranoze]

14 minutes ago, Hjoyn said:

This is not true, contactless pumps can operate at full throughput of 10kg/s. 

Need an image demostrate how to get 10kg/s steel pls.

[Hjoyn]

28 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Need an image demostrate how to get 10kg/s steel pls.

Basic layout of full throughput contactless pump. 

[gabberworld]

this is one off my setup what makes hot liquid with kiln.

[Prince Mandor]

14 hours ago, Hjoyn said:

Basic layout of full throughput contactless pump. 

again, we need niobium to create steel waterfall. So, yes it is possible, but no, I do not recommend trying it to someone flaking wolframite first time.

[Hjoyn]

11 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

again, we need niobium to create steel waterfall. So, yes it is possible, but no, I do not recommend trying it to someone flaking wolframite first time.

Waterfalls are just the optimal way, far from the only one. You can use whatever method you want of course. 

[DimaB77]

ONI is a game of just making up a problem out of nothing and heroically solving it. Your topic is proof of that 

I won't invent anything new, but I'm going to write an article on the subject.

[DimaB77]

Found time for this cool idea. It went like this:

I'll finish testing it, describe it, and give you a link.

[mathmanican]

@DimaB77, if you're writing it up, then I have a suggestion to improve it.  There is no need to dump the steel on the ground, and then pick it back up. The "contactless pump" setup for this build it completely unneeded.  It's a fun additional project, but needlessly complicates things here.   

You can use a thermosensor on a pipe to send the steel back to the refinery (or liquid storage tank) once it has lost too much heat. You can decide how large a thermal buffer you want the steel to run through (while in pipes) before checking the temp and then sending it back for reheating. It's a simplification on the build.  

Now, if the goal of the build is to highlight several interesting/cool mechanics, then keep it the same.  

[DimaB77]

I have steel pouring on a diamond tile at >3200C. It is pumped out at temperatures <3170C. The plant heats the steel at 605.98C, which gives a temperature of 3775.98C. Tungsten pipe melts at 3421.9C.

Still, I think it will survive. I'll try it when I have time.

[gabberworld]

32 minutes ago, DimaB77 said:

Tungsten pipe melts at 3421.9C.

 

yeah but there is one thing, where you get the Tungsten?, if you dig Wolframite and made Tungsten then there no point off this at all